Llewellyn Bikes

[anomaly]

First, I love your frames and the attitude you take towards frame building. It's great to see that you have fun with it.

How many chickens do you have?

[Dazza]

Dazza,

Do you feel the builders/small brands who come from a non-racing background lack street cred?

What shade of yellow did you use on your NAHBS Cadenzia frameset last year?

Your Fan,
Justin

Speaking of race bikes only
maybe,
Street cred is from the perspective from the eyes/mind of the customer/punter on the street.
This perspective could be linked to marketing.
So new brands/builders might lack street cred
but
I really do not think a proven builder who makes nice race bikes would lack street cred if they have never raced. Then what is racing? A local crit on Saturday morning for a few years, or one who has toiled in tours and ..................
If street cred = reputation then I think it is more about long term proven reliable quality made products that work well for their intended use.
To my mind this is more about the attitude, skill and the builder's need to learn and persevere (I got my favourite word in).
I do think it can be of assistance to understand racing demands if you have done some real hard racing. It would be easier for the builder to avoid making foolish design choices in race bikes if they have had a sizable amount of racing in their life.
A good race bike means a good working sharp tool under the powerplant. The more you have raced the more you may understand that is is all about the power plant. But many good designers and makers have not always so linked from racing to their creations.
We all know some experienced people who can ride B.P.B like perpetual motion, but are certainly lacking in the correct thinking department when it comes to bicycle and material design, let alone even understanding basic sport/cycling physiology. So to my mind their bike design street cred is ................................

An analogy I can make is

For many years Reginald Mitchell was the head designer at Supermarine/Vickers.
After designing many seaplanes and racing float planes he saw a need circa 1935/1936
so he designed the first fully metal stressed skin fighter plane the poms ever had. (Willy Messerschmitt was doing the same thing at the same time in Germany)
Reg got the biggest power plant at the time (RR Merlin) and put the smallest plane he could behind it with the thinnest wings to make it fly and also ensure any fighter pilot mug could fly the thing in service.
The Spitfire was born (not only worked well as a war machine, but crikey what a sexy looking aeroplane)
Reg died young not long after the first test flights,
but he only got his pilots license very late in life, while he was ill.
He was a brilliant engineer and designer because he listened to the pilots, observed what was needed and needed to happen, gave it thought, kept it simple and made the right decisions to the design direction. He had the right stuff!
Bike design and building is about the right stuff.
The street cred will follow.

On the Yellow, that is some thing Joey Cosgrove mixes up, some lemon yellow micro metallic with some slight green fades thrown in. If Joey is reading, speak up mate!

[Dazza]

Dazza's a great bloke and always up for a chat, so I look forward to my phone calls with him coz he's always generously shared his knowledge. I use some of his gear on my frames and they're a pleasure to work with.
Cheers,
Ewen Gellie

Ewen mate, you are riding at the front of the front group of the new wave of Aussie independent frame builders

We will see you soon when Ginger and I are in Melbourne for the Ashes test.

[Dazza]

First, I love your frames and the attitude you take towards frame building. It's great to see that you have fun with it.

How many chickens do you have?

Thank you
for me making frames is hard work, nice work, but still toil, so trying to have some fun with it is important
or I would have quit long ago

just three girls at the moment
any more than four, then the neighbours expect more eggs!
but we might be getting some more new girls next weekend

[e-RICHIE]

dazza -

what do you consider to be the minimum standard(s) for taking money for a frame, as in - being in the framebuilding business atmo?

[Dazza]

Dazza,

Do you feel the builders/small brands who come from a non-racing background lack street cred?

What shade of yellow did you use on your NAHBS Cadenzia frameset last year?

Your Fan,
Justin

as I put another load of washing on the line
I thought about this some more.
I learnt a lot more from my work with the Australian Institute Biomechanist Dr Brian McLean
and working with AIS sports pyhsiologists such as Dave Martin and his crew.
Being beside OZs best coaches, that means more to my work than my actual racing palmares.

and as you know some times for many riders it boils down to some thing Dario said

“Watch the pros on TV the way they pedal. Probably I am an old man, but this is my opinion. I think it is more important to have a good position and learn to ride the bike correctly, than to have the latest carbon frame.”
Dario Pegoretti

bike frame geo of angles and stuff is all thrashed out, there is nothing new to be discovered
me having raced lots never changed that

[Dazza]

dazza -

what do you consider to be the minimum standard(s) for taking money for a frame, as in - being in the framebuilding business atmo?

Crikey, you have to ask the hard question don't ya!

Let me type as I think

In era long gone
most worked as an assistant to a builder, or in a factory for several or many years.
They obtained some skills, knowledge and maybe earned a little bit of street cred on some one's or some company time
Then the motivated tragics have to do it for themselves and off they go to be an independent builder.

today, things are very different, it is hard for some one to start like this now. Not completely but few avenues present themselves.

Minimum standard??

At this time I am very unsure of an decent answer to your question and I need to give it lots of thought as I do some mind numbing polishing.

I make better frames today than I did 20 years ago
I make better frames today then I did last year
my minimum standard is higher every year. Maybe that is why it feels like toil?

I think if one wants to have street cred and respect for a client's hard earned $
you have to have built some time under the wing of an established company or builder before leaving that nest to make your own way.
As you your self have mentioned of your experiences, any other way to crap and a lot of pain/failure along the way.
It is not impossible to do it any other way, I just would not recommend it.
but have insurance!
and don't have kids to feed!

[Dave Kirk]

This has been a fun read and a nice place to spend with a cold dark beer in hand. Keep up the good work.

Dave

[DCT]

and as you know some times for many riders it boils down to some thing Dario said

“Watch the pros on TV the way they pedal. Probably I am an old man, but this is my opinion. I think it is more important to have a good position and learn to ride the bike correctly, than to have the latest carbon frame.”
Dario Pegoretti

bike frame geo of angles and stuff is all thrashed out, there is nothing new to be discovered
me having raced lots never changed that

that is awesome and makes so much sense

[YiPsan]

Dazza,

So much to learn from you and this is good stuff reading your replies to the questions.

Can you tell more about when and why you decided to do lug only?

Thanks,

[savine]

Gotta say that the bikes I look forward to look at on this site are Dazza´s, something that brings a smile to the old chops. I´ve had a couple of questions for you in the past
about your lugs and you answered straight away and respect for taking the time out for that. Built a couple of bikes up with your lugs and they look the dogs thanks to your lugs!
Cheers for what you do !

[Dazza]

Dazza,

So much to learn from you and this is good stuff reading your replies to the questions.

Can you tell more about when and why you decided to do lug only?

Thanks,

because lugs are cool
in today's age of bikes that are made like loafs of bread at the bread factory
baked all the same as the other brands in other factories, just wrapped in different coloured packages
lugs are one of the places the builder can show some flair
product differentation

regards to the engineering of lug use
To my way of thinking, using lugs is the most gentle way to transfer the loads from one tube to another.
The best retention of the tube material properties due to no stress risers that occur with TIG bead uneven edges, no undercutting etc.
It is not the thinning of the lug that is important, it is the shape of the shoreline that is important. Thins points = bad. Round spoons in the critical area =good.
Lugs do have restrictions, but I prefer round tubes as shaped tubes have inbuilt stresses from the shaping process.
This is yuk for the purity of the build process, alignments etc
so I removed shaped tubes from my life by designing OS and XL lug sets for level and sloping top tubes.
I only build road and track bikes so I have no need for any thing else
and so these lugs cater for all my building needs.
Lugs do add a lot more time to the build process than using TIG.
I am not a fan of fillet brazing, I did a lot of it, even used silver (55% rod from Astro Alloys and it worked super) for filleting like Casarti.
But it still distorts tubes and alignments more than lugs, well it did for me.
I am a big one on removing cold setting and aiming for accuracy of alignments.
I think this helps the bike ride nice under you.
maybe if I could fillet braze like those freaks called Dave Kirk and Steve Garro I might think differently
I don't know
One has to settle on their chosen way of building.
Lugs is my way, it allows me to express my work desires in a way that pleases me.

It's steel
it's lugs
let the others get on with the madness.

Having said that, if I was a production builder in steel, it would have to be TIG, or I would be very hungry.
oh, and good TIG is a much harder skill to master than lug brazing.
Darren Baum and Carl Strong, they are aliens!

[Dazza]

that is awesome and makes so much sense

Dario is clever man when it comes to bikes
but he can lead you into trouble
all before 10.30am hic, burp

[Dazza]

Gotta say that the bikes I look forward to look at on this site are Dazza´s, something that brings a smile to the old chops. I´ve had a couple of questions for you in the past
about your lugs and you answered straight away and respect for taking the time out for that. Built a couple of bikes up with your lugs and they look the dogs thanks to your lugs!
Cheers for what you do !

Thank you
Thanks for your support
I enjoy seeing others having fun with my designs.
It is rewarding, some thing I never thought would happen when I was 16 yo

[Dazza]

This has been a fun read and a nice place to spend with a cold dark beer in hand. Keep up the good work.

Dave

if the beer runs out
switch to D'Arenberg's red nectar, Custodian or Cadenzia

[devlin]

I can't add anymore to the adulations than to agree whole heartedly to all of them. Everytime I have spoken to or had email contact with Dazza he has been the most helpful and most generous with his advice and the time taken. I really appreciate his practical and common sense approach to his work. Makes for high quality work.

Dazza, now that you have lugs, drop outs and some braze on components in your line up and I know you have a fork crown on the way, do you have any ambition or notion to have your own spec tubing? Do the tubes that are on offer from the manufacturers cover all the frame scenarios that will be encountered? Do you see a need for using XCr, 953, etc. with the frames that you make?

[SteveP]

i, also, really like and appreciate the experience that you bring to this group dazza.
your frames are exceptional.
keep them coming.

[dcpdpayne]

Hey Dazza, This year at NAHBS you came over to the Shamrock Cycle's booth where I was helping Tim by talking about the bike he had built for me. Being completely new to this whole “Hand Built” bike thing I think we talked for maybe five minutes about my bike, which used your slant six lugs, but I had no clue who you were. After you had walked off Tim told me who you were and I felt like a complete tw@t. Thanks for being kind enough to listen to my dribble about your lugs and being such a good sport......PS, I love the lugs and have come to admire your work. Thanks -Andy

[Jonathan]

Dazza,

THANKS, Thanks for your work on the lugs. I like the sloping lugset quite a bit for smaller bikes to keep the appearence in a pleasant proportion and the intergrated seatpost binder I much prefer to the other style. You've also always been helpful to the newer guys without being condescending or sounding bitter.

Now for the question. What % of your frame sales stay in your country and what % goes elsewhere? Can you give us a sneak peak or hint about the coming fork crown?

[steve garro]

Dazza: you are, in Four Corners parley "the whole enchilada" PS - the limpets are sweet - Garro.