bringheli jig comments/reviews

[EricKeller]

I think the front triangle and the chainstays are the minimum sub-assembly that should be built at one time. I built a practice frame a couple of years ago with just the front triangle, and as a result the bb chainstay sockets are off by a couple of degrees. The seat tube and down tube don't really constrain the bb shell that much. With oval stays, it generally isn't as critical, but why not take advantage of the slop that is built into these parts?

the original Trek production jigs built the bike as sub-assemblies. You would put the top tube, head tube, and down tube together, and then put the rest of the front triangle together on another jig. The rear triangle was put on separately. They were somewhat problematic. I always liked the rear triangle jig though. The head tube was held in a piece of channel, which actually worked better than it sounds. The only issue was flux buildup. There was a lot of forced alignment, particularly on the small frames due to this design. The problem is that would throw out the rear alignment so it was a mess. It also tended to result in a top tube/down tube angle that was too small depending on the order of heating. Then putting the seat lug in the right place required the builder to put stress on the dt/ht/tt. I have seen other brands have strange failures at the head tube lugs that I suspect are a result of similar processes.

For lugged building in a vise with no jig, I like brazing the head tube to the down tube, the seat tube to the BB, and then completing the front triangle. Then the chain stays and finally the seat stays. My eyes are not good enough to get away with this anymore, and I wouldn't really suggest it to a rank beginner.

[Craig Ryan]

Wow...Arctos are $5k?? I had no idea.

The Bringheli is a fine jig for the money. I've had one for about seven years and it has served me very well. It is a little bit of a PIA to set up right out of the box, as has been mentioned. However, as Wade also mentioned, I developed a way of doing it with X/Y coordinates that makes a huge difference. If you are interested, here is a little tutorial that I put together for some folks back in the original Frameforum days:

Bringheli Jig Set Up

To piggyback on the work Dave did, which for the most part is how I do it, I made a custom angle piece to help measure the lower head point using the centerline of the jig. I just cut a square to fit and hold it against the centerline. I think if you use the tips Dave provided you can do well with this jig.



I also use the toptube holder as a reference for my setback. Using a plumb I can find the vertical off the BB post. It works pretty well as long as the jig is plumb horizontal. You can see it in the photo below near the top.



If the stand off pieces of this jig were stiffer it would be really nice. As is it gets you into the ballpark so you can get the pieces together enough to take to the table, then braze in a stand. I hope this helps somebody so they don't go out and dump a lot of money into something they're only going to use for a few frames. Like others have said, get a surface first.

[cement shoes]

I've had a Bringheli for about 6 years now. I spoke with Dave Anderson a while ago about his X/Y mod. You can see the ruler in Craig's pic above. That alone was a massive help and time saver for setting up the frame tubes in the fixture, so thanks very much for sharing that Dave. I modified the tip of a machinist square similar to what Craig shows above, which is part of Dave's X/Y mod. My fixture also came with a little piece of aluminum that I use to support the head tube assembly once the angle has been set. That way, I can slide the entire HT assembly along the Y axis.

For the rear end, I tack the drive side stay in the fixture. From there, I go to the table, make my checks and set up the other cs. I use an angle plate, 2.5" inch Suburban v-block bolted to the angle plate and an Anvil dummy axle in the v-block. Once I'm happy with everything, I tack the non-drive CS and do some more checks to make sure nothing is wack. These steps are all done on the table. I set up a seat stay in the fixture as well. The other side is done on the table where I use an angle plate to make sure they are in plane. The support that comes with the fixture, in my experience, allows one stay to sit a tiny bit lower that the other, which is not acceptable.

To me, the biggest "flaw" is that the bb shell uses cones on both sides. I assume Joe did this as a cost saving measure since a cone will work with Italian or English shells. However, the cone will let the bb shell float off center. Take a look at some shells. Many of them have a chamfer on the ID where the threads start, so the shell is not being located off its face but, rather, the ID of the chamfer. Having said that, Joe's fixture uses two nuts so the cones can be adjusted in or out relative to the fixture base plate to deal with the chamfer problem or handle a wider shell. Still, this is something I would really, really like to modify. I'd need to farm this out since I do not own a lathe so it remains on the "To Do" list.

I think some of the fixture is under-built, particularly the seat tube tower. It flexes very easily (like push on it with a finger), however, I use the aforementioned tube support to brace the upper end of this part and that seems to work ok. I think this could be corrected with a length of 1.5" extrusion since the existing tower is also 1.5". I also do not use the top tube support. I just let the tube fixture itself and use a spring clamp under the TT at the HT. These are like $5.00 at any hardware store.

Lastly the rod/cone assembly for the HT is a minor pain. However, this is a cost effective solution and part of why Joe's fixture costs what it does. Overall, I think the fixture is a good value for the money and Joe is a pleasure to deal with. As others have already said, you have to figure out your tooling's quirks and learn how to work within those parameters. That's part of the gig. I also made the mistake of buying a fixture before the surface plate. That was a huge mistake. Get a table first and stuff to go with it. Hope all of that helps and good luck with whatever you decide to do.

Thanks,
Tom

[Dave Anderson]

To me, the biggest "flaw" is that the bb shell uses cones on both sides. I assume Joe did this as a cost saving measure since a cone will work with Italian or English shells. However, the cone will let the bb shell float off center. Take a look at some shells. Many of them have a chamfer on the ID where the threads start, so the shell is not being located off its face but, rather, the ID of the chamfer. Having said that, Joe's fixture uses two nuts so the cones can be adjusted in or out relative to the fixture base plate to deal with the chamfer problem or handle a wider shell. Still, this is something I would really, really like to modify. I'd need to farm this out since I do not own a lathe so it remains on the "To Do" list.

I agree, Tom. I was no fan of the cones either...or the threaded rod. On more recent models Joe has upgraded the BB post and got rid of the threaded rod (but not the cones) and when I ordered one of these newer set ups a few years ago I also asked him to turn me a set of stepped inserts for BB shells. See the photo below. I am sure he would make you a similar set if you asked him to. They are another BIG improvement for me. Once the inside one is set you never have to mess with the cones or adjusting nuts again....and if you want to use a wider shell, all you have to do is loosen a set screw and move the inner insert. I do not use Italian threaded BB shells and so that's not a problem, but if I did it would be easy enough to make, or have a set made, for that, etc.

DSCN9943.JPG

My fixture also came with a little piece of aluminum that I use to support the head tube assembly once the angle has been set. That way, I can slide the entire HT assembly along the Y axis.

I do the same thing!...see the piece of bar stock bolted to the back side of the HT bracket. I use the smaller piece of aluminum to help lock the HT bracket into place once the Y measurement is set:

DSCN9946.JPG

Another idea that I got from Joel Greenblatt is to replace the set screws with thumb screws...speeds things up a lot, and remarkably...I can tighten them enough with finger pressure so that the pieces stay put:

DSCN9948.JPG

Something else I do quite a bit, and from Craig's photos it looks like something that he does as well, is to mark the HT bracket arm with a sharpy and a rider's initials so that I can set the jig up again quickly when I go to put the frame back in it when adding the rear end or etc....assuming, of course, I needed to move the HT bracket for some reason....For example, when I do more than one front triangle before adding the rears, etc :

DSCN9950.JPG

I also do not use the top tube support. I just let the tube fixture itself and use a spring clamp under the TT at the HT. These are like $5.00 at any hardware store.

Great minds think alike! :-) :-)



Yeah...its a jig that maybe takes some getting used to, but I couldn't agree more with Craig when he said that "we understand each other" and I don't ever see getting anything else. Like the machinist tools and welder that my grandpa kept and passed on to me, some things eventually just become part of you.

Dave

[shand]

I had a Bringheli from about 2004/5 and developed a lolve/hate relationship with it. I think I'd done a lot of the mods I've already seen on this thread. I normally tack the whole frame minus seatstays in the jig in one go and after a little experimenting, I could pretty much get a straight enough frame after tacking with only very slight tweaks needed once it was on the table. For me, the biggest issue by far was repeatability and quick set up. If I was only doing 3 or 4 frames a year I could live with that. Ironically, the hassle setting up the jig and not being able to remove/replace the frame quickly was what eventually made me concentrate on tacking as much as I could in the jig in one go. For that I'm glad.

My Bringheli has just gone off to a new owner (Phil, the organiser of the Bespoked Bristol handbuilt show) and when I was packing it up, I realised how attached I'd got to the stupid big lump of metal!

Steven

[cement shoes]

Dave,

Thanks for the photos of your fixture. The thumb screws are a great idea. That's something I will definitely add. I also need to get some toggle handles since some of the sliding pieces just have a simple nut and/or t-slot nut/bolt.

I didn't realize Joe changed the bb tower or that he would make the stepped shell inserts. That's great to know.

Thanks,
Tom

[BigPoser]

I just read all of this and it's been great to read. I'm just starting my venture into frame building and there is great info here.

Thank you!

[duanedr]

I'm 10 frames in and currently making my first jig for myself, similar to Alistairs (and many others) pictured above. Every minute I spend working on it, I kick myself that I passed up a HJ Universal that was posted at a very good price. Live and learn!

I will agree with the several above that building several frames without a jig will help understanding the jig requirements better. I would add that building the jig has helped me understand the framebuilding process better as well. I acquired a nice sized surface plate about a year ago and that has been a huge asset in terms of reassuring myself that all of my fixtures are square/straight/in plane etc.

Thanks

[Dave Anderson]

A couple of people have asked about my Bringheli jig set up process that was linked to earlier in this thread, as the link is now dead. If anyone is still interested in that, it can now be founder here:

Bringheli Jig set up tutorial - Google Photos

Sincerely,

Dave

[mikebikes]

A couple of people have asked about my Bringheli jig set up process that was linked to earlier in this thread, as the link is now dead. If anyone is still interested in that, it can now be founder here:

Bringheli Jig set up tutorial - Google Photos

Sincerely,

Dave

Thanks Dave for the photos and write ups, super helpful with getting the jig set up.

[le Cadre custom bicycles]

Thank you for the good information.

I build my first frame on a wooden jig (that caught fire more than once). And soon after bought the Bringheli. This was in 2004 (I think). After about 20 frames I was offered a Bikemachinery.it set including the alignment table for free. So I sold the Bringheli quickly. In 2015 I stopped building and due to a project house that needed much more funds I sold most of the tools. Jigs and table went to Gilles Berthoud in France.

Last year I was able to buy back the Bringheli. And yes it was like meeting an old girl friend again after many years.

Last house project wil be building a hobby shed in the backyard. And I plan to upgrade the Bringheli.

Your idea's and experiences help. And I have some idea's of my own.

Keep the flame burning!!