Jeans:

[WadePatton]

I can't hang with a button fly. I'd be peeing myself constantly.

tha's when you leave a few buttons undone...ventilation yo! (secrets of the button-fly revealed, vol 1.0)

also, y'all keep referring to "relaxed fit"...DG has regular, relaxed, and easy fit. also slim boot and relaxed boot. i have a couple of "relaxed" and they're mondo roomy in the quadzone (my climbing physique yo.)

thor could wear 'em.

them slim boots is for hipsters atwo.

54 bucks a pop-direct from mfg.

[Griffin32]

Try SWRVE. I have several pairs of their jeans and shorts. They fit my cycling shape body really well. The denim is tough and they are all made in the USA. $100 gets you the regular denim. I think they are actually releasing some cordura denim soon. Here is the link:

SWRVE | *CORDURA® jeans: regular trim fit

[chasea]

Those wanting slimmer jeans with room for a cyclist's thighs may want to take a look at Levis new 521 slim taper. Stays roomier below the waist and tapers down toward the ankle. I know people are down on Levis around here, but $45 for denim is pretty great. You can afford to wear through them.

[jscottyk]

I also like Mountain Khakis for tough, jean-style pants. But they are khakis.

Mountain Khakis MK – Khaki Pants & Apparel Built for the Mountain Life

Mountain Khakis is a good outfit and make a great product. Been wearing there stuff for about 4 years now. They do occasionally make a run of jeans too.

[MIN]

Those wanting slimmer jeans with room for a cyclist's thighs may want to take a look at Levis new 521 slim taper. Stays roomier below the waist and tapers down toward the ankle. I know people are down on Levis around here, but $45 for denim is pretty great. You can afford to wear through them.

Bought a g-star raw pair with this profile while in London this summer. The fit and details are superior to anything I have tried.

[Brandon White]

Those wanting slimmer jeans with room for a cyclist's thighs may want to take a look at Levis new 521 slim taper. Stays roomier below the waist and tapers down toward the ankle. I know people are down on Levis around here, but $45 for denim is pretty great. You can afford to wear through them.

I'd say the "fit" is pretty great, not the denim. "great denim" is rarely found on Levi's these days.

[chasea]

I'd say the "fit" is pretty great, not the denim. "great denim" is rarely found on Levi's these days.

Well, the issue is that it seems most people have a $50-60 limit for jeans. Something has to suffer. At $50 for pants you'll wear several times a week, how long do you actually expect them to last? And if you do expect them to last, how good do you expect them to look? You're going to pay for good denim or good design, but you won't get both for your $50.

I have no issue with $150 jeans. But some people do. Its like inflation and the negative effects (quality, perhaps) of our global economy make perfect sense to people until the topic becomes denim.

That's enough politics for one day. Find whatever makes your ass look good. And if it lasts a year, you got more than your money's worth.

[chasea]

A little bit abnout the expensive Levis:

Valet. > Style > Profiles & Features > 3 Questions for: Maurizio Donadi - Levi's Vintage Clothing, Levi's Made & Crafted

[WadePatton]

Well, the issue is that it seems most people have a $50-60 limit for jeans. Something has to suffer.

As someone who wears denim daily and has worn out more pairs of jeans/jean shorts than _most_ folks my age, and has already given sound recommendations here. I have to state flatly--that you are ABSOLUTELY DEAD EFFING WRONG, nothing personal, JUST FLAT WRONG in the case of Diamond Gusset.

NO-thing has to suffer. DG are premium jeans sold at a reasonable price. PERIOD

Apparently the level of snobbery 'round here won't let the high-faluters consider such a "budget-priced" pant.

The DG company was founded to do this: Make a top-quality product of domestic materials and labor at a fair price. That's what they do. He went head to head with Levi's (as a former employee of) and WON as far as I'm concerned. I've heard him interviewed on the radio.

There are no loose stitches, there are no crooked seams, there are no shortcuts, there is no "offshore" factory, they're sold direct. And they have the gusset--which won't bother you if you _don't_ need it and will be greatly appreciated if you do. Methinks every man has trouser-pinched his equipment once or twice (the "squat and scream/wince/cough" move)--won't happen with the gusset.

I'm not affiliated with the company, but when I'm an expert in an area and recognize a superior product, i do like to pass the information on for others to benefit (which keeps the company going and keeps the superior product available--that's my only "connection")

Well, the website modeling sucks and there's a small office staff (same lady every time i've called/emailed) and I have to pay sales tax as a TN resident...no other shortcomings i've discovered. and gosh darn i wish they'd make more stuff...

There is nothing higher $ denim can do but appeal to your fashion model snobberies. If you want real hard-core (except for the pre-washing bit) 14.5 oz denim, you'll try the DG. I haven't purchased any other denim in several years. There's hardly a stitch of any other (than DG) denim left in my wardrobe...which is mostly denim yo!

(politics note) There are also the cotton growers, haulers, fabric mills, and seamstresses-each an American job performed in American, supported by DG products.

I'm done here.

fin

[WadePatton]

Well, the issue is that it seems most people have a $50-60 limit for jeans. Something has to suffer.

As someone who wears denim daily and has worn out more pairs of jeans/jean shorts than _most_ folks my age, and has already given sound recommendations here. I have to state flatly--that you are ABSOLUTELY DEAD EFFING WRONG, nothing personal, JUST FLAT WRONG in the case of Diamond Gusset.

NO-thing has to suffer. DG are premium jeans sold at a reasonable price. PERIOD

Apparently the level of snobbery 'round here won't let the high-faluters consider such a "budget-priced" pant.

The DG company was founded to do this: Make a top-quality product of domestic materials and labor at a fair price. That's what they do. He went head to head with Levi's (as a former employee of) and WON as far as I'm concerned. I've heard him interviewed on the radio.

There are no loose stitches, there are no crooked seams, there are no shortcuts, there is no "offshore" factory, they're sold direct-And they have the gusset--which won't bother you if you _don't_ need it and will be greatly appreciated if you do. Methinks every man has trouser-pinched his equipment once or twice (the "squat and scream/wince/cough" move)--won't happen with the gusset.

I'm not affiliated with the company, but when I'm an expert in an area and recognize a superior product (i just counted 13 pair here and there may be another one or two in the laundry), i do like to pass the information on for others to benefit (which keeps the company going and keeps the superior product available--that's my only "connection")

Well, the website modeling sucks and there's a small office staff (same lady every time i've called/emailed) and I have to pay sales tax as a TN resident...no other shortcomings i've discovered. and gosh darn i wish they'd make more stuff...

There is nothing higher $ denim can do but appeal to your fashion model snobberies. If you want real hard-core (except for the pre-washing bit) 14.5 oz denim, you'll try the DG. I haven't purchased any other denim in several years. There's hardly a stitch of any other (than DG) denim left in my wardrobe...which is mostly denim yo!

(politics note) There are also the cotton growers, haulers, fabric mills, and seamstresses-each an American job performed in America, supported by DG products.

I'm done here.

fin

[chasea]

As someone who wears denim daily and has worn out more pairs of jeans/jean shorts than _most_ folks my age, and has already given sound recommendations here. I have to state flatly--that you are ABSOLUTELY DEAD EFFING WRONG, nothing personal, JUST FLAT WRONG in the case of Diamond Gusset.

NO-thing has to suffer. DG are premium jeans sold at a reasonable price. PERIOD

Apparently the level of snobbery 'round here won't let the high-faluters consider such a "budget-priced" pant.

The DG company was founded to do this: Make a top-quality product of domestic materials and labor at a fair price. That's what they do. He went head to head with Levi's (as a former employee of) and WON as far as I'm concerned. I've heard him interviewed on the radio.

There are no loose stitches, there are no crooked seams, there are no shortcuts, there is no "offshore" factory, they're sold direct. And they have the gusset--which won't bother you if you _don't_ need it and will be greatly appreciated if you do. Methinks every man has trouser-pinched his equipment once or twice (the "squat and scream/wince/cough" move)--won't happen with the gusset.

I'm not affiliated with the company, but when I'm an expert in an area and recognize a superior product, i do like to pass the information on for others to benefit (which keeps the company going and keeps the superior product available--that's my only "connection")

Well, the website modeling sucks and there's a small office staff (same lady every time i've called/emailed) and I have to pay sales tax as a TN resident...no other shortcomings i've discovered. and gosh darn i wish they'd make more stuff...

There is nothing higher $ denim can do but appeal to your fashion model snobberies. If you want real hard-core (except for the pre-washing bit) 14.5 oz denim, you'll try the DG. I haven't purchased any other denim in several years. There's hardly a stitch of any other (than DG) denim left in my wardrobe...which is mostly denim yo!

(politics note) There are also the cotton growers, haulers, fabric mills, and seamstresses-each an American job performed in America, supported by DG products.

I'm done here.

fin

Oy, I don't even know where to start. This has me down. Its never my intent to upset anyone. Well, when it is, I make it clear. This is not one of those times. We're just talking here.

One of my favorite designers, Neil Barrett, has said numerous times that the real fashion victims are those who think they can wear runway clothes on the street. I wholeheartedly agree with that statment.

I'd like to think that we have good conversations here. I think that it is as much because of our differences as it is what we have in common. We certainly wouldn't all ride the same bike. Different needs and different fit issues. That's all. Same with pants.

And as a fellow Tennessean, raised by a single mother who worked her ass off to keep us off of welfare, I certainly would never intentionally try to be high falutin'.

I owe you a beer. We can talk about how Nashville just makes pop music these days.

Sincerely,

Chase

[billrick]

It is that kind of passion that makes me love this place so. Hugs, y'all.

I noted earlier that I recently struggled with the $150 jeans question. I think Chase's point is made valid by the large multinational corporation aspect of Levis. I strongly suspect that they make the same profit on the $50 made-in-Mexico jeans as the $150 made-in-USA jeans. It is not fashion model snobbery that gives us $150 Levis, but denim supply issues, higher doemstic wages, and distributers and retailers taking a cut as the product flows through the supply line. That doesn't mean that a smaller, more nimble corporation can't produce a made-in-the-US product for $50 by focusing direct sales and by producing a smaller range of products. I hate the saying, but maybe this DG jean is the exception that proves the rule?

I'm ordering a pair of DG jeans to test this theory. Either way, I'm happy that my dollars (frn) are going to support American seamstresses. No more cheap imported blue jeans, apple pies, or baseballs for me.

[WadePatton]

it wasn't directed at any one person but all the persons who appeared to be ignoring my input on jeans.

it's like asking about CX racing and then ignoring input from richard and zank- or talking around them. they might get a little miffed.

i can blame that on me for not elaborating on my denim expertise and showing photos of all the levels of wear, fading, and stains my pants long and short--something to differentiate me from the typical internet_armchair_quarterback (IAQ) folks who know all but do little. i'll be more careful about that next time.

wear whateva your fashions dictate, mine is all about function and durability-the source and the price is gravy on this deal--and such rare sauce these days that i'm a little "enthusiastic" about it.

if anybuddy here buys a pair of 31's or 32's and doesn't like them, let me know-I'll pay postage to keep 'em out of your yardsale bin, or save you a trip to the donation center.

cheers all.

final fin.

[edoz]

I think it's come out that different folks have different needs for their jeans. For a guy who's going out and looking good, chillin with the ladies and wearing their jeans several times a week, $150 jeans might fit their bill pretty good. Dudes who are gonna be working on the car, chopping wood, brazing and throwin 'em in the laundry after the first day are gonna need a different kind of product. Me and Wade fall in the same category, so I'm glad he mentioned the jeans he did. I'm definitely gonna check them out.
Chasea seems to live in a slightly different world than me. That's cool, it's his world. I respect his input, and if I ever find myself in a situation where I might be visiting his side of life, I'll look into his choice of jeans.
There's knowledge here for everybody.

[rydesteel]

Wade has a lot pf passion and isn't afraid to express it, I may try a pair of the DG jeans just to see if he's full of ... :>).

Chase, these guys aren't from Nashville but they are from Tennessee but I dont think I'd describe them as pop

[chasea]

Wade has a lot pf passion and isn't afraid to express it, I may try a pair of the DG jeans just to see if he's full of ... :>).

Chase, these guys aren't from Nashville but they are from Tennessee but I dont think I'd describe them as pop

Hometown heroes. I'm friendly with their drummer, Roy Berry. We go to each others gigs-n-stuff.

Memphis used to have a punk club, The Antennae; before my time. It was part of the same southern circuit like the 40-Watt. A few bigger Athens bands came through town and played there, Widespread Panic, REM, etc. I was hanging out at the Buccaneer one night and the woman who used to own it sat down at our booth and began was talking my ear off. All my friends slid out and went elsewhere. Being a polite southern boy I couldn't bring myself to just get up and leave. I was trapped.

In walks Roy Berry wearing his Antennae t-shirt. "Hey, Roy. Remember the Antennae? This chick used to own it."
"Oh, really. I loved that place."
That was my cue.

I think he still hold a grudge.

[DrZRM]

It seems that even though folks are willing to spend a lot of money on bikes here (understandably so) the general trend seems to be to mock other high end goods. Whether it is bikes, stereos, watches, shoes, kitchen knives or jeans, there are small niche market of people willing to invest in what they understand to be high quality.

There really is a lot more to high end denim than the fashion labels you probably have heard of. I personally love the thick, raw, dark mid-century Levi's reproduction denim that are coming mostly out of Japan (like Samurai, Flat Head, Sugar Cane, Somet and Iron Heart) and a much smaller number of producers that are making high quality denim in the USA (Rag & Bone were stitching in Brooklyn and 5EP which failed a few years back but made some awesome denim stitched in the USA with Japanese denim) and Levi's continue to produce their LVC line with US made Cone Mill denim. There are a lot of cool labels doing very interesting things with denim that are largely overlooked by most folks wearing expensive jeans. Iron Heart 634S 21 oz. selvedge denim wears so hard and softens up so beautifully over time, you can abused the hell out of it, and it just looks better and better (for the OP, they might be a bit hot for LA, I give them a rest for lighter denim over the summer). You'll get years out of a pair but they are mind-bogglingly expensive ($300+ rather than $150). I think of them like a Chris King headset, I bike commute in them, work on bikes in them, do lawn work in them, they will outlast 5 pairs of jeans, and the worse you treat them the better they look, the less you wash them the better the fades.

Check out the pics of how they wear at the following IH 634S at Self Edge.

Anyway, not for everyone, but quality/expensive jeans don't necessarily mean precious.

Edit: Here is a cool video of Roy making a pair o his jeans for the handmake fans.

[WadePatton]

oh i just can't stop myself!

Hey DrZRM, i did recently discover the fold of folks into the "no wash raw" thing. I agree that washing is most of what wears out the denim and i don't wash jeans until they're due. i practically never put them in the dryer (lived over 2 years recently w/o an electric clothes dryer).

And I'm going to push that first wash out a little with the next raw pair, but there's just way too much 2-cycle smoke, bar oil, sweat, mud, blood, fur, snot, diesel, gas, soil, and sevin dust getting on/soaking/saturating mine own pantalones to join that cult. Back in college, sure (it was just beer and sorority *&%%$* -why wash ever?) but now is now and i have to clean up regularly to avoid being fined by the epa...

I don't have any problem with anyone wearing 300-buck jeans if that's their thing. just don't want them mistakenly thinking that their jeans have any functional superiority over some of the less expensive, non-communist/slave jeans.

You can't convince me that any ~14.5 oz denim is going to be more durable than any other such cotton denim as it comes from the mill. Washing kills them all atwo--and some of us accelerate the wear a touch with our hard living-Edoz comes to mind.

Help me unnerstand the raw/no-wash approach. How in hell do you guys stand the bagginess that must exist if you want the jeans to fit once they've been washed a few times? Or do you buy 'em to fit raw and throw 'em out when they shrink to the point you can't get into them--is this the origin of "girl" jeans? And i know from experience that you're going to get a pair of indigo blue legs if you sweat through or fall in the creek or get caught in the rain with raw denim. I do much prefer to get raw denim, but if I get it small enough to wear unwashed, it won't be wearable 2 years from now-or six washes, whichever comes first.

i do have a new source of raw, but will keep it close until i've sorted out the details. will report either way.

[DrZRM]

Wade,

While I generally agree that 14 oz. denim is going to all have about the same work life, modern denim production does make a flimsier fabric than the older looms. Ring spun denim (see first definition from my google search below) wears better (aesthetically) and ring spun denim does last longer than the open end weaved denim and I personally think it always looks better than the open end, new or broken in. I find the 21 oz. denim holds up much better and of the very small number of companies working with it, Iron Heart's denim softens up very nicely with wear so their jeans don't feel nearly as heavy as they actually are. Are they 2 or 3 or 4 times more durable than 14 oz. before you see holes, I'd say somewhere in there depending on your use. They break in slowly, I like jeans when they are new and dark and as they break in. I hate when your 1 year old jeans tear apart just as they really start to look good. IH 634S ( IIRC they are based on the cut of post WW II, 1947 Levi's 501s IIRC) draw out that whole process, that broken in sweet spot lasts years instead of months, at least for me.

As for initial shrinking, depending on whether the denim is pre-shrunk (see Sanforization below) I recreate that scene from Quadraphenia (and yes my wife thinks I am crazy). I put on the jeans new and soak in as hot a tub as I can stand a couple of times, towel off (dark blue towel) and sit in them for a few hours to dry. They literally shrink to fit, and the worst of the indigo seepage takes place.

I know some denim-heads believe you should wear raw denim for months and years without washing, but I'm a grown-up with a job, I wash jeans when they get dirty or smell bad, or if they stretch too much. When I wash I wash in warm/hot water, maybe tumble dry for 10 minutes (depending on my schedule) and put them back on damp (most of the shrinking and damage comes from the dryer). Once they dry most of the way on me, I hang them from a belt loop (never fold them flat). They only shrink back to the original size. Then repeat as necessary.

I usually have a few pairs of different jeans I'm cycling through at any given time in various stages of broken in.

Def. from Denim Glossary at oki-ni

RING-SPUN DENIM

"Ring spun yarns were traditionally used in denim up until the late 1970s, but were later supplanted by cheaper Open End yarns. This is a spinning process in which the individual fibers are fed onto the end of the yarn while it is in the ‘twisting’ stage. The process consists of a ring, a ring traveller and a bobbin that rotates at high speed. The ring-spun yarn produced by this method creates unique surface characteristics in the fabric, including unevenness, which gives jeans an irregular authentic vintage look. Ring-spun yarns add strength, softness and character to denim fabric."

SANFORIZATION

"A pre-shrinking fabric process that limits residual fabric shrinkage to under 1%. The process includes the stretching and manipulation of the denim cloth before it is washed. Raw, un-sanforized jeans will shrink 7-10% after the first wash, and continue to shrink slightly up to the third wash. Developed in the late 1920s by the Sanforize Co. and patented in 1928, the process was reportedly first used by Erwin Mills in 1936 to make denim for overalls marketed under JC Penney’s Big Mac label. Lee jeans were made from Sanforized fabric soon afterwards, Lady Levi’s® introduced around 1935 were also Sanforized although most other Levi’s® jeans remained shrink-to-fit for another three decades."

SELVAGE

"Also referred to as ‘Redline’ or ‘Aka-Mimi’. Originally called ‘self-edge’, the selvage is the narrow tightly woven band on either edge of the denim fabric, parallel to the warp. A selvage end prevents the edge of the denim from unravelling. Old 28 to 30 inch shuttle looms produce denim where selvages are closed, whereas on larger modern weaving machines, the weft yarn is cut on every pick, creating what is called a ‘fringe’ selvage. Coloured thread was used by Cone Mills to identify the particular fabric used by it’s major manufacturers. Vintage Levi’s® jeans began with an all white strip and later had a single red strip along both selvages, Lee’s had a blue or green strip along one end and Wrangler’s was yellow."

You can't convince me that any ~14.5 oz denim is going to be more durable than any other such cotton denim as it comes from the mill. Washing kills them all atwo--and some of us accelerate the wear a touch with our hard living-Edoz comes to mind.

...

Help me unnerstand the raw/no-wash approach. How in hell do you guys stand the bagginess that must exist if you want the jeans to fit once they've been washed a few times? Or do you buy 'em to fit raw and throw 'em out when they shrink to the point you can't get into them--is this the origin of "girl" jeans? And i know from experience that you're going to get a pair of indigo blue legs if you sweat through or fall in the creek or get caught in the rain with raw denim. I do much prefer to get raw denim, but if I get it small enough to wear unwashed, it won't be wearable 2 years from now-or six washes, whichever comes first.

[xeladragon]

I'm in the same boat as DrZRM. Lots of nice denim out there if you can afford it. I started with a pair of Nudies, then onto a pair of Flat Heads, now working on a pair of Samurai's. I view denim in the same way I view bikes... why buy something that everyone already has (Cannondale/Trek/Specialized/Giant... Diesel/Levis/etc.) when for approximately the same price, you can own something custom of potentially better quality (handbuilt frames... Japanese/raw denim)?