Old buildings

[donevwil]

In my hood:

From this:



To this:

[rwsaunders]

A question for the knowledgeable, when a former factory or warehouse gets converted into a residential loft, could one trust that the build-up of harmful stuff has been removed as well? Is there even a way for one to test and measure such things?

Yes, there are local, state and federal guidelines for testing, abatement and remediation that are very strict and comprehensive. Some firms specialize in testing and monitoring, some firms specialize in abatement and remediation and some cover all categories, and a key component of the due diligence process is working to uncover exactly what "bad stuff", might have accompanied the construction of the facility, along with the operation of the facility. Common elements include asbestos containing materials and lead paint, and subsurface soils issues are another element. Poor compressive strength, expansive materials, seismic compliance, UST (underground storage tanks), arsenic, PCB's, creosote among many others and a new one to me...Tetrachlorethylene (PCE) and trichlorethylene (TCE)...which were used to clean metals during the fabrication process which in this particular case, were associated with the Apollo program in Downey, CA. Total nasty and dangerous and not easy to remediate.

[bigbill]

The original Valentine School is on an annex of the Hualapai Tribe. The property sits next to Rt 66 and has housing and offices for the Bureau of Indian Affairs. There is not much else in the area that would make the tribe restore the building other than historical reasons. I teach at the newer Valentine School, which is a K-8 with about 90 students. Although not technically on the Hualapai Reservation, all but about a dozen students are Hualapai. In the true fashion of a cyclist's reference, the school is my turnaround for my 36 miles/1100 feet of climbing out and back.

[thollandpe]

A question for the knowledgeable, when a former factory or warehouse gets converted into a residential loft, could one trust that the build-up of harmful stuff has been removed as well?

Yes, there are local, state and federal guidelines for testing, abatement and remediation that are very strict and comprehensive.

On our projects, dealing with asbestos and lead paint is pretty routine, but we can struggle with PCBs. Most often found in adhesives for ceiling and floor tiles, and window caulk. Sometimes that last one can be dodgy if it’s been absorbed into surrounding materials like masonry. Regardless, it’s all gone so to answer @echappist’s question, you can trust it’s been removed. If there’s any doubt you could hire your own industrial hygienist for testing.

For me it’s not as much a concern for people using/working/living in the spaces afterward, it’s exposure for the people doing the demo and construction, or making the materials. Running a hammer drill or floor sander hours a day, or breathing paint fumes. Year after year.

I’ve worked on three projects that were built under the Living Building Challenge, and used no materials on their “red list”. One remarkable thing is that the workers ate their lunches inside the building, even the painters. When the buildings were opened, white board markers and cologne were the biggest threats to indoor air quality. No new car smell.

You’d think it would be simple to avoid stuff that we already know is poison, but it ain’t easy. Like PVC (made from vinyl chloride, like that train crash in Ohio). Or fluoridated forever chemicals, used in “stain resistant” carpet and upholstery. So I guess the irony is that the toxic risk still exists with new construction.

[j44ke]

Sorry for the image size, as Imgur just changed their upload process and it sucks. Jorn, if you can nuke the images in the previous post, I’ll see if I can “right size” them…thanks.

I just deleted the image links. All you need to do is add back in the image links for smaller photos.

[j44ke]

Friend helped on the renovation design for the train shed at Richmond VA's downtown train station. Quite a building.

https://player.vimeo.com/video/191216764

[mnoble485]

Yes…this project is all about applying specific elements of the state/federal historic tax credit program, as well as the DOE’s recent 48C program, to make it pencil. It doesn’t hurt that the location is dead-on, in terms of where the client wants to be and LEED (green design), wellness, hybrid workplace environment and community engagement are important to them..pretty easy design details to address with an open floor plate, deep floor-to-floor dimensions and lots of natural light.

The project schedule will also be favorably impacted, as procuring/fabricating/erecting steel for a building this size would be a 5-month journey in itself. If you haven’t experienced the effects of commercial construction escalation, we’re averaging a collective increase of 38.5% nationwide since 2018, so having a “shell” that can be retrofitted certainly helps. Other challenges include the hazmat abatement of course and if they elect to demo the building and start new, we’ll easily have $750K in demolition and removal costs, so it’s a balancing act with emotions thrown in for good measure. The true question is, will the seller agree to the asking price and can this project bring Mike Noble out of retirement?

https://www.nps.gov/subjects/taxincentives/index.htm

https://www.energy.gov/infrastructur...it-48c-program

Oh heart be still, I’ve been on the bench for 4 years now but still get calls from headhunters. The answer is always no but this would intrigue a younger me. I’ve been involved in the renovation of a 1920s theater and an entire 8 story wing of an older hospital. Lead paint, asbestos and surprises every day. Nimbleness and an understanding owner and GC are all necessary.

Mike

PS If this happens we will definitely need status reports

[rwsaunders]

If this building were not sandwiched in between two others, the wrecking ball might have been the preferred tool. It is essentially a ca 1920's millworker's home/shop, that so happens to now be a part of a 30-40's something neighborhood, so it was converted for a local credit union, with community space on the upper floors. We essentially gutted the structure from the inside, stabilized the neighboring walls and started fresh with a new structure, roof, MEP's and some salvaged elements from the former residence. A rarity in the city...5 off street parking stalls in the rear...helped seal the land deal. Common industry quote when dealing with conversions.."they don't build old houses like they used to...thank goodness", as terms like level, plumb and square apparently weren't in the vocabulary back in 1921.

...bonus...bike content too.

[ides1056]

Mass MoCA is a case in point: they turned Sprague Electric's building complex into an art museum that revived a depressed town. Total win/win.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sprague_Electric

[lumpy]

Mass MoCA is a case in point: they turned Sprague Electric's building complex into an art museum that revived a depressed town. Total win/win.

I tuned up Mass MoCA's rental fleet in one of their many basements one spring. It was big enough that I just did the test rides down there.

[rwsaunders]

Got the green light today to see if we can secure the property and begin the due diligence process. My favorite part of the project; R&D and fact finding; is as only as good as the access to information, especially when the building is 115 years old. Fortunately, my structural engineer has been there, done that, so he's just as stoked. Fingers crossed.

[thollandpe]

Sofa king cool. That clay tile article is awesome, thanks for sharing. I’ve seen it used in old campus buildings as a fire-rated partition along corridors.

Reminds me of getting the green light to insulate and air seal a giant old Victorian that had been turned into office and conference space. The contractor lifted a clapboard and drilled through the board sheathing into the joist space. There was tar paper and some fibrous stuff that looked like old squid ink fettuccine. We sent a sample to EH&S to see if it was hot. It was not.

So then I sent some to the science department to find out just what it is. Vegetable! (not animal or mineral) Eel grass (seaweed), and specifically “Cabot’s Quilt” made in Mass by the same folks who still make Cabot stain.
https://ia800903.us.archive.org/21/i...tsCca65090.pdf
Tested by MIT! Average cost to heat from October to May dropped from $138.10 to $17.26 (That’s $2500 dropping to $300 in today’s dollars).
Wicked smart, even back in the early 1900’s. Somehow between then and now we lost the plot.

Bonus points for being sound absorbing and non-flammable, that’s why it was used back then in Radio City Music Hall.

Good tech, cool tech, even if it’s old tech—it’s still rock and roll to me.
http://www.archipedianewengland.org/...ss-insulation/



PS Google-fu! https://mycozyhome.com/2013/08/eelgr...w-thats-green/

[j44ke]

I was just talking to someone over the weekend about a similar structure in the mid-19th century buildings in Prague. They were built with a similar brick arch structure, but instead of metal they had wooden beams. The beams were installed in the I-beam orientation, and they were notched longitudinally so the brick arch fit into the notch - so the beams were both support and keystone between arches. Then the floors were formed as above - with cinder fill and wood floor over either sleepers or cement slab. Made for incredibly quiet apartment buildings, and the structure of the floor meant everyone could have a grand piano. It also meant relatively large rooms as far as wall-to-wall span with tall ceilings and big windows.



Once the economy began to stabilize after the Velvet Revolution, money started flowing in for renovation, and a lot of the companies doing the work were Italian companies fresh off restoring Italian buildings as Italy began to benefit from EU investment. Those companies would remove the inner floor structure and then transplant in a steel girder frame that allowed much easier installation of modern plumbing, heating and electricity. And it was fast and cost less overall. But it did not have the same structural stability of the old building methods, which resulted in "bouncy" buildings. And now you could hear your neighbors clomping around. Later the government added in restrictions for more historical renovations.

The tonnage of materials that came out of those buildings from the gutting of the interior structures was incredible.

[Chik]

Sofa king cool. That clay tile article is awesome, thanks for sharing. I’ve seen it used in old campus buildings as a fire-rated partition along corridors.

Reminds me of getting the green light to insulate and air seal a giant old Victorian that had been turned into office and conference space. The contractor lifted a clapboard and drilled through the board sheathing into the joist space. There was tar paper and some fibrous stuff that looked like old squid ink fettuccine. We sent a sample to EH&S to see if it was hot. It was not.

So then I sent some to the science department to find out just what it is. Vegetable! (not animal or mineral) Eel grass (seaweed), and specifically “Cabot’s Quilt” made in Mass by the same folks who still make Cabot stain.
https://ia800903.us.archive.org/21/i...tsCca65090.pdf
Tested by MIT! Average cost to heat from October to May dropped from $138.10 to $17.26 (That’s $2500 dropping to $300 in today’s dollars).
Wicked smart, even back in the early 1900’s. Somehow between then and now we lost the plot.

Bonus points for being sound absorbing and non-flammable, that’s why it was used back then in Radio City Music Hall.

Good tech, cool tech, even if it’s old tech—it’s still rock and roll to me.
http://www.archipedianewengland.org/...ss-insulation/



PS Google-fu! https://mycozyhome.com/2013/08/eelgr...w-thats-green/

Very interesting, thanks. It sounds like the material won't decay?

The Missus is working on commercial and residential buildings (both existing and new builds) on a small island. The owner wants to get a green / eco certification so a specialist consultancy had been brought in, but some of the suggestions being made, particularly with respect to insulation, are absurd both from an initial cost perspective as well as durability / effectiveness because it's obvious that they will decay in a few years. (I forget what the specific materials were, but even someone like me who's not in the trade can see the absurdity.)

[j44ke]

Very interesting, thanks. It sounds like the material won't decay?

The Missus is working on commercial and residential buildings (both existing and new builds) on a small island. The owner wants to get a green / eco certification so a specialist consultancy had been brought in, but some of the suggestions being made, particularly with respect to insulation, are absurd both from an initial cost perspective as well as durability / effectiveness because it's obvious that they will decay in a few years. (I forget what the specific materials were, but even someone like me who's not in the trade can see the absurdity.)

Sounds like she needs a different consultant.

[Chik]

Sounds like she needs a different consultant.

Yeah, but they answer to the owner. She just tells the owner that their suggestion costs more upfront and will cost a lot more when they need to be replaced.

I think the issue is that this lot is focussed on obtaining the certification and not about how the materials will perform over time, which is ironic given that sustainability is supposed to be top of mind.

It reminds me of some activist NGOs with whom I crossed paths. One of them is actually an ex-journalist. The controversy is the end game like the story is in journalism. Less interested in the actual solutions, which I suppose would end their funding if they materialised.

I'm familiar with ESG/CSR certification schemes so it all sounds familiar. Clueless people running around with a clipboard ticking off some list without understanding anything.

Ok, enough cynicism for the day.

[rwsaunders]

Sofa king cool. That clay tile article is awesome, thanks for sharing. I’ve seen it used in old campus buildings as a fire-rated partition along corridors.

Todd...here are the other two pages from the article, and note that the roof is framed using the same techniques as mentioned in the article...that sent me into a tizzy (in a good way) when I connected the photo with the article.

[rwsaunders]

Our client submitted their formal offer to purchase the building from the seller yesterday…fingers crossed.

[j44ke]

Our client submitted their formal offer to purchase the building from the seller yesterday…fingers crossed.

I really hope this works. Would be a great project. And hopefully we'd get to follow along!

[rwsaunders]

In negotiations with the seller, so keep 'em crossed. In the interim, we have an our share of new buildings in the mix as well, and the men and women that are working in this crazy weather are to be admired. We are scheduled for steel delivery in a few weeks and what you see in the photo is the construction of the lower level mechanical/electrical room taking shape. The building is seeking LEED Gold certification and it's our first building with a sizable solar array...165kW.