A new american steel tubing supplier

[anon.]

Late on this, but the HSLA 1-1/8" steerer tube (OXPMSRDLT) and the two weights of 1" round, tapered fork blades (KIT-FB-7 and 4) are tubes that I would be grateful to find from a new vendor.

[suhacycles]

Would it be too difficult to produce something in the 120-150 KSI range, with longer butts, various diameters of course that can be TIG'd or silver brazed AND stainless? I imagine something like this would check off a lot of people's boxes. At first I thought Reynolds 921 was going to be something like that but it's a little pricey and apparently it's not approved for silver brazing at the moment. Didn't specify if that was due to corrosion or joint strength/integrity issues... I guess they expect all cable stops and bottle bosses to be welded or brass brazed? Anyway back to the original question... =)

-Hansen Su

[Will Neide]

Would it be too difficult to produce something in the 120-150 KSI range, with longer butts, various diameters of course that can be TIG'd or silver brazed AND stainless? I imagine something like this would check off a lot of people's boxes. At first I thought Reynolds 921 was going to be something like that but it's a little pricey and apparently it's not approved for silver brazing at the moment. Didn't specify if that was due to corrosion or joint strength/integrity issues... I guess they expect all cable stops and bottle bosses to be welded or brass brazed? Anyway back to the original question... =)

-Hansen Su

921 suffers liquid metal embrittlement when brazed with silver. You can literally watch it crack right before your eyes.

Have you tried KVA?

[suhacycles]

921 suffers liquid metal embrittlement when brazed with silver. You can literally watch it crack right before your eyes.

Have you tried KVA?

Ouch... ok then. Haven't tried KVA yet but perhaps someday. Might be a little tough to work with just using hand tools, yes?

-Hansen Su

[steve garro]

Ouch... ok then. Haven't tried KVA yet but perhaps someday. Might be a little tough to work with just using hand tools, yes?

-Hansen Su

Did they work through the tubing failure issue(s)?


- Garro.

[dinucci]

Alright folks, I have received a handful of responses both there and PM. Maybe one hundred frames a year with requests for different tubes which means less than one hundred of the same tubes per year. I had hoped for a more enthusiastic response. The American supplier of these proposed tubes supplies over six hundred different profiles to the aerospace industry. These profiles require a much more difficult to produce profile, with much higher specifications to meet than the typical bicycle tube. They are completely capable of producing what you need. They are enthusiastic about pursuing these bicycle frame tubes but if we cannot show them that they might be able to make even a small profit here why would they try to fill this impending gap in the market? They use sophisticated techniques for their other markets and are wanting to employ these techniques to the bikes as well.

You all should fill out this form below if you have not already done so. Information is power. Please note that there is not much time remaining before this questionnaire is closed. It is from Paul Skilbeck.

EmailMe Form - Frame material survey

Thanks for your comments up to this point.

[e-RICHIE]

Alright folks, I have received a handful <cut>

Mark - how are you gauging needs when the requests for road versus off-road specs come to you? I'd imagine a consensus of like-minded makers all of whom produce say 100 units a year asking for the same 3 main triangle tubes would be the ideal. When the constituents are making fewer and also have different minds regarding what they'd like or need, it's harder to focus on what should be produced, I suppose. To that end, is it feasible to charge much more per pipe just to get it done. Presently if a going rate for a top tube might be $25, would $75 make it closer to possible? We're all making rather expensive bicycles in the scheme of things, and I'm of the mind that passing the costs to the retail market would affect little to nothing. Your thoughts?

[Rayburn Shaun]

Mark-

Would any of the stock shapes that your supplier produces work in any bicycle applications or are the two industries just too different in terms of materials?

Thanks much!

[David Tollefson]

I use a fair amount of non-butted tubing for things like beefcake chianstays and gossamer seatstays in my builds. 1/2"x.028 and 1/2"x.035 for seatstays, and 7/8"OD and even 1"OD for chainstays. Not the "normal" stuff used on most frames for these items, but also common to standard production for most tubing outside the industry.

[incepi]

Maybe this is an idea that is too ambitious.

Ask True Temper what they would be willing to sell their bicycle tube division for. It might be inexpensive, considering they are planning to close it completely. Perhaps it could be purchased by a supplier like Henry James, with investment capital from interested stakeholders. They could all become shareholders. The mills producing the tubes would still be operated by True Temper, obviously, since they produce golf shafts in the same facilities(I could be wrong).

The dies and intellectual property could be owned by a cooperative or a corporation, and used when an order is placed.

[cicli polito]

Mark - Thank you for posting the survey in order to gather some actual data on the subject. I have replied, and I hope others do as well and it imparts some useful information.

[Will Neide]

Honest question, why buy from a hypothetical new tubing manufacturer with no brand recognition when Reynolds and Columbus already offer almost everything anyone could need. And Nova too. It doesn't have cache but it's not too shabby.

[Moustache]

Mark - Thank you for posting the survey in order to gather some actual data on the subject. I have replied, and I hope others do as well and it imparts some useful information.

Agreed, it seems that this was the very thing TT never did themselves....Mark, thanks for exploring the option.

[Eric Siepmann]

Maybe this is an idea that is too ambitious.

Ask True Temper what they would be willing to sell their bicycle tube division for. It might be inexpensive, considering they are planning to close it completely. Perhaps it could be purchased by a supplier like Henry James, with investment capital from interested stakeholders. They could all become shareholders. The mills producing the tubes would still be operated by True Temper, obviously, since they produce golf shafts in the same facilities(I could be wrong).

The dies and intellectual property could be owned by a cooperative or a corporation, and used when an order is placed.

Your making the false assumption that the assets could not be utilized elsewhere. I would suspect that TT would have already sold if it would have been profitable already. My best guess is that they will just re-tool and realign to new production - which still centers around tubes...

[dinucci]

Honest question, why buy from a hypothetical new tubing manufacturer with no brand recognition when Reynolds and Columbus already offer almost everything anyone could need. And Nova too. It doesn't have cache but it's not too shabby.

Will, you are asking an important question. Here is a short answer.

This is not a "hypothetical new tubing manufacturer" as it has been butting tubes before True Temper. It supplied TT before TT made golf shafts. As I stated, probably over one hundred million butted tubes.

1. integrity
The company must deliver on schedule, with the product meeting the specified design criteria. This American company has an excellent track record in this regard. It is at least as good as the suppliers you have mentioned.

2. execution
The tubes must have the material properties as per specification. They must not have hidden stresses that could result in the tube fracturing during manufacture, during fabrication or in use while in the field. They must be straight, round and to the correct diameter. The walls, butt locations and lengths must meet spec. They are heat treated (Air Hardening material) in a vacuum. They have a near perfect finish on the interior of the tube as well as the exterior in order to maintain a condition that minimizes stress risers in all areas. This increases fatigue life. At this time we are not certain that formed tubes will be Air Hardening because we don't have enough feedback from the frame builders. Developing these tubes is going to require a lead time. This American company is at least as good as the suppliers you have mentioned regarding these points.

3. availability
Initially there will not be as large a range of tubes as the currently well established suppliers have to offer. However there will a good supply of designed tubes, available through the normal supply system when production begins. This of course depends on getting feed back from the builders. I told you that we are wanting to supply samples to those who are interested for inspection. I still have only received a handful of replies. This American company is now, and will be at least as good as the suppliers you have mentioned regarding availability.

Regarding your comment "when Reynolds and Columbus already offer almost everything anyone could need" there is the need for you to ask Lon (NOVA) and others who supply these brands if they are satisfied with their delivery.

If you folks really want to use American made product let's get this ball rolling.

[dinucci]

Mark - how are you gauging needs when the requests for road versus off-road specs come to you? I'd imagine a consensus of like-minded makers all of whom produce say 100 units a year asking for the same 3 main triangle tubes would be the ideal. When the constituents are making fewer and also have different minds regarding what they'd like or need, it's harder to focus on what should be produced, I suppose. To that end, is it feasible to charge much more per pipe just to get it done. Presently if a going rate for a top tube might be $25, would $75 make it closer to possible? We're all making rather expensive bicycles in the scheme of things, and I'm of the mind that passing the costs to the retail market would affect little to nothing. Your thoughts?

Hi Richard
Gauging needs: a tube is a tube is a tube to me. I have designed hundreds of shaped, formed, butted....etc. tubes. No problem here.

consensus:
Yup, if we can get a good database to work from we can connect the dots and probably end up with fewer SKU's and keep everyone, including the final user, the rider, happy.

charge: We are trying to keep the costs down but I agree that we could probably charge more and still be OK. Especially if we find a need for high strength tubes that will be shaped as they will cost more anyway (just as my new tubes for my road bike do).

Thanks man.

[incepi]

Regarding your comment "when Reynolds and Columbus already offer almost everything anyone could need" there is the need for you to ask Lon (NOVA) and others who supply these brands if they are satisfied with their delivery.

If you folks really want to use American made product let's get this ball rolling.

I don't really understand why the tubes have to be "American made". What really matters is continuity of product line for those who can't get alternatives elsewhere.

Nobody cares if their components are from Japan, Italy, France, Germany, or even Taiwan. As long as the quality is reliable, and competition is fair(no exploitive or unsustainable labor or environmental practices) .

Why should tubes be any different?

[Eric Siepmann]

I don't really understand why the tubes have to be "American made". What really matters is continuity of product line for those who can't get alternatives elsewhere.

Nobody cares if their components are from Japan, Italy, France, Germany, or even Taiwan. As long as the quality is reliable, and competition is fair(no exploitive or unsustainable labor or environmental practices) .

Why should tubes be any different?

I would disagree. Lately, there has been a great push for American made products mostly driven by millennials rediscovering US heritage brands. I like to support anything made in the USA and it does impact my purchasing decisions. I'll buy American first if it meets my requirements and standards.

True Temper has a long history as an American made product. It's a US heritage cycling brand at this point - the Thunder Chicken days of yesterday are hard to forget. The idea of continuity of TT must, IMO, include American ingenuity and manufacturing. I'd also pay for the quality as well. If you want a no name tube from the far east, there are plenty enough sources for them already.

If you are commissioning a custom frame, then brand and origin of the tubes comes into play. If you are buying a mass produced frame from the LBS, then not so much.

[e-RICHIE]

I would disagree. Lately, there has been a great push for American made products mostly driven by millennials rediscovering US heritage brands. I like to support anything made in the USA and it does impact my purchasing decisions. I'll buy American first if it meets my requirements and standards.

True Temper has a long history as an American made product. It's a US heritage cycling brand at this point - the Thunder Chicken days of yesterday are hard to forget. The idea of continuity of TT must, IMO, include American ingenuity and manufacturing. I'd also pay for the quality as well. If you want a no name tube from the far east, there are plenty enough sources for them already.

True Temper is a brand name that has been owned by many, sold to others, and then bought and sold many times over. A company like this isn't making bicycle tubes, it's making money.

[Scheisserad61]

True Temper is a brand name that has been owned by many, sold to others, and then bought and sold many times over. A company like this isn't making bicycle tubes, it's making money.

Yeah, thats a good description of so many hapless companies run and ruined by idiotic MBA's and investment fund wheeler-dealer gafflers.

But all things being relatively equal, I would much prefer a domestic source that is familiar with close-tolerance drawing instead of some factory in a low-wage country that specializes in tubing for bloated E-Bikes or old-age scooters.