On Branding atmo -

[e-RICHIE]

So expanding the "About Edoz" page on my blog would be a good idea?

1) Only if you want more sales.
2) And, only if people read your About page.

A) Do you?
B) Do they?

[e-RICHIE]

interesting.

i agree that most of the folks on this forum don't "need" a brand strategist. but as a guy who makes his living in branding, it's inconceivable to me not to have a brand strategy.
i think, richard, that you have a strategy even if you didn't set out to have one. the story you tell is is a reflection of your strategy. it's crystal clear, it's consistent, it's well and frequently told. and, honestly, i'm a big fan of that strategy. in fact, i've directed clients to your site to show them an example of a sharp strategy communicated through a well told story.

what makes your story more than just a story, what makes it an effective strategy, is that it has some critical components for success - it's differentiated, it's meaningful and it creates a sense of product superiority.

there are tons of guys sitting on park benches with stories to tell, willing "to open up and let the rest of the world in."

but unless that story has some solid strategic underpinnings, they'll only be talking to themselves.

And I think my strategy is a reflection of my story atmo.
Makes bikes. Races bikes.
And you are right - lotsa' folks with stories to tell.
This conversation is about those who are in business and would like to stay in business.

I didn't set out to have a career in this, I ended up with one.
That's probably why I am sharing my thoughts here (and there).

Thanks.

[crumpton]

Can I simplify and say my work is my brand? Initiated by my own selfishness to build the bike i wanted. Others wanted it soon after.

I am still just making the bikes I want to make. Time will tell if my sort of "brand" can endure.

[e-RICHIE]

Can I simplify and say my work is my brand? Initiated by my own selfishness to build the bike i wanted. Others wanted it soon after.

I am still just making the bikes I want to make. Time will tell if my sort of "brand" can endure.

Ya we have known each other now for a decade almost? You'll endure atmo. The thing is, each of us has the franchise on our own self (and all that it includes). By extension, we have no real competition. I think the more you do exactly what you want to do, the even more you'll find others wanting it. The upside for the independent makers is that they (we...) have a fixed production. We can raise prices. We can sell other things. But few of us really wants to work any harder in order to make more units. If/when you tool up to do more - thinking that more units solves more problems exponentially (as in, it will make you more money by dint of higher outputs) - the stakes probably become unbearable.

[david]

Can I simplify and say my work is my brand? Initiated by my own selfishness to build the bike i wanted. Others wanted it soon after.

I am still just making the bikes I want to make. Time will tell if my sort of "brand" can endure.

it's nice to know that there are some guys out there who've had success following the "build it and they will come" model.
but i bet there are a lot more guys out there who built a great product and followed that model into insolvency.
richard mentioned this conversation is about those who are in business and want to stay in business.
i think there's an opportunity with this thread to help those who are struggling - either to grow or simply to put food on the table.
again, congrats to the guys who've found success by building a great product and watching the orders follow.
but to those who need a little help, i'd suggest your odds are significantly improved by doing more than that.

[GSmith]

The big difference with Nick is that what he makes, and how he makes it, is distinctive. He's not just buying a bunch of lugs and tubes that were designed by somebody else and brazing them together, slapping on some cool graphics, posting it on his Tumblr site and hoping the dinero flows.

A Crumpton is uniquely a Crumpton. That's a big part of his brand.

You've got to create space between you and the next guy. It's OK if it's more emotional space than physical, but it's got to be there or else its just commodity stuff and the only basis of competition left to you is price. Richard has said it a million times here, if you have to discount your work to sell it, its because its not worth it; meaning its not distinctive enough for the customer to pay what it cost to make it plus a living profit.

[Eric Estlund]

He's not just buying a bunch of lugs and tubes that were designed by somebody else and brazing them together, slapping on some cool graphics, posting it on his Tumblr site and hoping the dinero flows.

I think anyone that does this is going to struggle. Lugs, tubes, etc are starting points, but purchasing the bits is not the same as buying a bike-in-a-box kit. Plug and play building is missing part of the point, and of course there will be some struggle with that approach.

To Gary's point- the folks that have success selling the item (bike) are not plug and play, and the folks that are "kit-building" and turning a profit are not (just) selling bikes.

[steve garro]

but i bet there are a lot more guys out there who built a great product and followed that model into insolvency.
i think there's an opportunity with this thread to help those who are struggling - either to grow or simply to put food on the table.
again, congrats to the guys who've found success by building a great product and watching the orders follow.
but to those who need a little help, i'd suggest your odds are significantly improved by doing more than that.

Just to play the devil's advocate - why should we care?
There are only so many slices of the pie.
To escape the notion of "the Starving Framebuilder" some people are going to have to get thrown under the bus, yeah?
What is the impetus to take the time to nurture while eschewing your duties and queue and keeping your peeps fed & your bills paid?
I can see why you would want to keep the FNG's coming if you are on the sales end as per F'building supplies, but why create your own competition in a shrinking niche?
Well, Why?
- Garro.

[Eric Estlund]

but why create your own competition in a shrinking niche?

Selfishly it is in part to maintain a certain across the board professionalism, while realizing all the time that there is no "perfect" competition. Lots of guys build curved top tube cruisers, but only one guy builds Coconino's.

I give enough away to try to encourage people to build safe bikes. I don't give fit or aesthetic advice to anyone that I'm not building for.

[e-RICHIE]

Regarding the references to materials and menus, there has always been a small pool that we all swim in. In the 70s we were limited to less than six commercial lug suppliers. For pipes, we had maybe three companies. Names come and go. But we all still have the same small number of brands (no pun intended) that we depend on so that we can rearrange the small parts to reflect our personalities atmo.

[steve garro]

Selfishly it is in part to maintain a certain across the board professionalism,
I give enough away to try to encourage people to build safe bikes.

Again - why bother?
Why thin the stew?
Are you not just giving it away?
Channeling my inner Abrose Bierce today, but in this era of "the internet owes me a freebie," Why?
- Garro.

[e-RICHIE]

Again - why bother?
Why thin the stew?
Are you not just giving it away?

Stevo - I have thought about this on and off since getting online a decade ago. Through the years my thoughts were that advice and opinions and tutorials are just that. Short of the receiver becoming you, he still has to juggle information and make it work for him. We can give away secrets until the cows come home but if the guy listening or watching doesn't have the DNA to rearrange stuff so that he can own it next, he's fucked as a niche-ista. And as we know from the landscape, many casualties can be named.

We should all continue doing what we do because it's how the bills get paid. And it also gives us something to do between weekends. I look at the sharing thing as a way to keep the window cracked so that someone, anyone, has a fighting chance to make it inside. There are no longer training grounds for what we do. So staying open-minded about giving back is one way that all of this (makes sweeping gesture with hands...) doesn't die.

[steve garro]

There are no longer training grounds for what we do.

I strongly disagree.
I didn't own a computer (used the one at the library maybe once a week) log into a WWW F'builder site or knew that one existed, and had never even heard of you until I was injured and someone (100% correctly) guessed that I would be on the outside for the rest of my life, which I am.
You don't need the internet to build bikes - you really don't.
It may even be a crutch you need to quit using before other parts atrophy.........

A thread recently where sound advice was given and not even heeded but refuted to the point of totally disregarding any and all collected wisdom comes to mind as an example of not only "Why?" but "Fucking Why?"
Again, channeling my Ambrose Bierce today.

QUOTE: "Despite his reputation as a searing critic, Bierce was known to encourage younger writers, including poet George Sterling and fiction writer W. C. Morrow."

"Friendless. Having no favors to bestow. Destitute of fortune. Addicted to utterance of truth and common sense."


"Cynic, n: a blackguard whose faulty vision sees things as they are, not as they ought to be."


"Perseverance - a lowly virtue whereby mediocrity achieves an inglorious success."

I just love that guy!
- Garro.

[jon_norstog]

My own approach has been to make the best bikes I can, get them into the hands of people who will race them or thrash them, treat the clients right, and have some fun myself. Other things I do: build to a functional concept, make that bike a "model" and give it a name. And write the narrative that goes with the model so the clients will know what the bike is for and what you had in mind building it.

A couple other things: others may disagree but I recommend avoiding using your own name as a brand. What happens if you hit pay dirt and sell the company? Also, I think it helps to have a kind of mascot figure who/that embodies the spirit of your enterprise. Like the nude art noveau redhead on the city bike ... the mascot goes with the company if you sell.

Due to tribal politics, I got more time on my hands lately. I can build full time if I want, and will also put more time into my website. Maybe even do a blog. Also I got a couple new models I want to prototype.

jn

"Thursday"

[e-RICHIE]

Steve - It's not that I am disagreeing with you. But the web is just a tool shed and a computer is nothing more than a delivery man. Not all sharing happens online. It's only that we're reading this thread online. But the same sentiments and actions apply everywhere, and 24/7. They're not lessons that are limited to 1s and 0s. And PS all working framebuilders are on the outside. By choice atmo.

I strongly disagree.
I didn't own a computer (used the one at the library maybe once a week) log into a WWW F'builder site or knew that one existed, and had never even heard of you until I was injured and someone (100% correctly) guessed that I would be on the outside for the rest of my life, which I am.
You don't need the internet to build bikes - you really don't.
It may even be a crutch you need to quit using before other parts atrophy.........

A thread recently where sound advice was given and not even heeded but refuted to the point of totally disregarding any and all collected wisdom comes to mind as an example of not only "Why?" but "Fucking Why?"
Again, channeling my Ambrose Bierce today.

QUOTE: "Despite his reputation as a searing critic, Bierce was known to encourage younger writers, including poet George Sterling and fiction writer W. C. Morrow."

"Friendless. Having no favors to bestow. Destitute of fortune. Addicted to utterance of truth and common sense."


"Cynic, n: a blackguard whose faulty vision sees things as they are, not as they ought to be."


"Perseverance - a lowly virtue whereby mediocrity achieves an inglorious success."

I just love that guy!
- Garro.

[david]

Just to play the devil's advocate - why should we care?
There are only so many slices of the pie.
- Garro.

absolutely no reason to care if you're doing well and are happy.
guys like you and nick and plenty of others on this forum have a very unique offering and have managed to build a well-deserved reputation (maybe even a brand?!).
i hope you continue to have a constant and sufficient flow of orders until you decide to hang it up.

my thoughts are not intended for those who don't want or need help.
i'm just a branding geek who knows a thing or two about how to build a brand, how to expand a market and how to grow share.
of course, the brands i work with are highly commoditized products so the dynamics are a bit different.
but the basic principles apply.

to be clear, this isn't about propping up lousy builders with marketing hocus-pocus.
it's just a few thoughts about some things people can do to help build their brand.
i like richard's comments about having a story and telling it.
i'd add to that the importance of making sure your story is unique and meaningful.

one thing i would push back on is "why should we care? there are only so many slices of the pie."
well, if you're a guy who doesn't feel you're getting your fair share of the pie, then there are plenty of reasons to care.
besides, strong brands can grow not only share, but the market.

maybe this goes to a different thread, but is the market really shrinking?
are there fewer new customers?
or do we have a sense that the market is shrinking because there are fewer builders now than there were just a couple years ago?
if there are fewer new customers, is it because market penetration is maxed?
or is there simply an ebb in customer interest based on who knows what?

my guess, based on personal experience, is that the market is far from maxed.
i can't tell you how many people i meet who are just one warm spring day away from getting into cycling.
maybe they won't spring for a coconino as their first bike.
but i can see them getting there in time.

[steve garro]

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all working framebuilders are on the outside. By choice atmo.

Agreed - whether that's where they wanted to go, in many cases.
Off to build afore mentioned bicycles - good discussion, guys!
Reminds me of this one:
Kurtz: "Are you an assassin?" Williard: "I'm a soldier." Kurtz: "You're neither. You're an errand boy, sent by grocery clerks, to collect a bill."
- Garro.

[ron l edmiston]

[QUOTE=steve garro;499101]I strongly disagree.
I didn't own a computer (used the one at the library maybe once a week) log into a WWW F'builder site or knew that one existed, and had never even heard of you until I was injured and someone (100% correctly) guessed that I would be on the outside for the rest of my life, which I am.
You don't need the internet to build bikes - you really don't.
It may even be a crutch you need to quit using before other parts atrophy.........

love both you brothers..
you are "sooo uncommon, but share sooo much in common.."

freedom, wisdom & the special trait to stand-fast, but listen to the "wind in the willows.."

and just when ima about to say fuck-it --- let age, battle scars and mind a still go'n while body whoa'n --- u2 get me off dead center..
two paradises --- northern arizona and northern massachusetts...

thanks with a smile,

ronnie

[steve garro]

maybe this goes to a different thread, but is the market really shrinking?
are there fewer new customers?
or do we have a sense that the market is shrinking because there are fewer builders now than there were just a couple years ago?
if there are fewer new customers, is it because market penetration is maxed?

Many have fallen by the wayside.
The road to hell is paved with good intentions.........................
E-Richie has said as much many times - production bikes are so good that it's marginalised.
Once every village had a blacksmith - now people buy a wooden block full of Chicago Cutlery.
Again, thanks for the banter.
I really do have to go to work.
Wish I could have you all over for a beer in the sun this afternoon.
- Garro.

[steve garro]

[QUOTE=ron l edmiston;499112]

love both you brothers..
you are "sooo uncommon, but share sooo much in common.."

freedom, wisdom & the special trait to stand-fast, but listen to the "wind in the willows.."

and just when ima about to say fuck-it --- let age, battle scars and mind a still go'n while body whoa'n --- u2 get me off dead center..
two paradises --- northern arizona and northern massachusetts...

thanks with a smile,

ronnie

You Rock, Ronnie.
Off to work & you have a really, really great day.
I will toast in your general direction come 4PM/Beer:30
- Garro.