Suits - where buy?

[NYCfixie]

In the US, terminology can be very misleading since "custom" is used in a very loosey goosey way and can encompass both MTM and bespoke. However, the price will give away the true nature of the offer.

Very good advice since I have seen these terms and many others used to define a non-off-the-rack suit:

Made To Measure
Made To Order
Semi Custom
Partial Custom
Custom
Full Custom
Semi Bespoke
Bespoke
Full Bespoke

As Chik and others have noted, there are really only 3 terms but some makers/brands/retailers are trying to market them differently:

Off The Rack = standard sizes (some alterations can help a pre-made garment fit better but unless you are close in size/shape to the pattern/model it will never really look or feel good).
Made To Measure = standard pattern with some alterations allowed before the garment is created (will fit better than OTR but the standard pattern needs to work for your body/shape).
Bespoke = the pattern is created for you (and your body) so the garment should fit and feel (almost) perfect (see e-Richie about what perfection really means).

[htwoopup]

And to what @Chik was saying with the Cooper picture and the collar staying in place…an issue I have a lot because of my shoulder width to rest of body. And mens’ shop salesmen and even lazy tailors throw a lot of bs on this one. Sometimes you need “the collar cut” which is doing some of the adjustments that Chik was talking about. It is a royal pita for the tailor to do for an already made jacket but it is actually not hard. Put your hands out in front of you sorta pulling your shoulders forward and then put them down to your sides while you are looking at the 3 sided mirror. Look at the collar and if it is up off your back/ neck/ shoulders particularly just below your head. And beware the bullshitting sales guy who lightly pats you on the back and ever so gently runs his hand down your back a little as he says “it fits really nice” while he is actually smoothing out the problem.

If you remember the movie Broadcast News, that is why they had their jackets cut differently/ or sat on the tail…because for a jacket to look right when you are sitting down is a tad tricky. You aren’t going to be doing what a news reader does, but you do want it to fit like Cooper in the picture. And I will say that I have never had a jacket fit me off the rack in the collar area and I have only had one guy NOT tell me it was okay before I insisted they were wrong and demanded they fix it and he was a true bespoke tailor making me a suit for my practice wedding.

[vertical_doug]

I think you should just do shiney sharkskin, its the answer to all your dreams/

[Chik]

Chik, now that I see your posts, I recall that you might be a fabric expert. If so, pay attention to him Drew.

Hardly an expert. Just a bit more informed and experienced than some people, just like many on VS are about bikes.

What do you know, a 3-roll-2 darted suit jacket.

Don't see those around too often these days.

Why am I not surprised that you picked up on it? :) What's unusual about that coat is that it has peak lapels with a 3 roll 2. I don't think I've seen another example of that combination. Coop's tailors still do 3 roll 2 coats regularly, mainly for American customers.

And to what @Chik was saying with the Cooper picture and the collar staying in place…an issue I have a lot because of my shoulder width to rest of body. And mens’ shop salesmen and even lazy tailors throw a lot of bs on this one. Sometimes you need “the collar cut” which is doing some of the adjustments that Chik was talking about. It is a royal pita for the tailor to do for an already made jacket but it is actually not hard. Put your hands out in front of you sorta pulling your shoulders forward and then put them down to your sides while you are looking at the 3 sided mirror. Look at the collar and if it is up off your back/ neck/ shoulders particularly just below your head. And beware the bullshitting sales guy who lightly pats you on the back and ever so gently runs his hand down your back a little as he says “it fits really nice” while he is actually smoothing out the problem.

My favourite is when a sales person pulls down the front quarters when a customer has put on the jacket, making the collar settle by force albeit temporarily. I suppose that once you've purchased it, you're expected to have your valet pull them down whenever you put on that ill fitting jacket?

There's a MTM retailer here that had an advertising campaign running on social media. One of the images featured exactly the above, with a guy kneeling down in front of a customer and pulling down the front quarters. It made me chortle, but at the same time, I felt sorry for those who thought that that was an imagery persuasive enough to actually give them custom.

In the 007 franchise, Daniel Craig is arguably the worst dressed Bond in history. Casino Royale was fine when Brioni supplied the suits although the sleeves were a tad too long, but when Tom Ford (Zegna) took over dressing Craig, it was a bit embarrassing to watch. Craig not having an easy body to fit whilst him insisting on having 2 sizes too small, it was an impossible situation for Zegna to make it work given that they don't have the capacity to do anything other than manipulating standard blocks. Every jacket collar was up in the air as if it was hanging from an invisible hook. When Craig turned up at an event wearing a red velvet jacket made by London tailors, the jacket fit like it should and made him presentable for once. It was nice to see it. In contrast, Fiennes as M was properly dressed in every episode because he was dressed by London tailors -- who also dressed Dave Bautista, who was a nightmare to fit, impeccably in Spectre -- not a cloth mill.

Anyway, Drew, I wish I could point you to a retailer in your area, but I'm afraid I'm not at all familiar with your region.

[echappist]

Hardly an expert. Just a bit more informed and experienced than some people, just like many on VS are about bikes.



Why am I not surprised that you picked up on it? :) What's unusual about that coat is that it has peak lapels with a 3 roll 2. I don't think I've seen another example of that combination. Coop's tailors still do 3 roll 2 coats regularly, mainly for American customers.

You are probably a lot more well informed on the subject, even amongst those who care, as evidenced by the fact that you picked up on the peak lapels.

Also, until reading your post, I actually thought peak referred to relative positioning of the lapel, as opposed to shape of the top surface of the lapel

[Chik]

You are probably a lot more well informed on the subject, even amongst those who care, as evidenced by the fact that you picked up on the peak lapels.

Also, until reading your post, I actually thought peak referred to relative positioning of the lapel, as opposed to shape of the top surface of the lapel

And there’s something called le cran Camp / le cran Parisien / frogmouth notch / French lapel. :)

[72gmc]

I’d ask for it just because it’s called frogmouth notch

[j44ke]

I wear a suit on average once every 5 - 10 years. The last suit I bought was a skinny suit at Brooks Brothers - the real Brooks Brothers store at 346 Madison Ave, which the fake Brooks Brothers recently sold to be redeveloped into whatever. Totally classic but slim fit with thin lapels and completely plain front no pleats wool suit. Before that every suit I bought was one and done. By the time the next opportunity came around to wear it, the style had long since died a merciful death. Black, thin cut, great with a white shirt and a thin black tie. Only color I wear with it are red socks so I don't get confused with the undertaker delivering the body.

I like this video, but I'd rather never wear a suit.

[bigbill]

I sometimes regret not getting fitted in early 2010 while I was in Hong Kong. At the time, I had no plans to retire from the Navy in two years, but things change and I ended up needing a new suit for job interviews. Having spent most of my working life in coveralls and steel toe boots, my bar was pretty low for a suit. Since 2012, I've worn a suit to interviews, weddings, funerals, and an awards dinner for my son. I made the choice to have jobs where business casual was as "dressed up" as necessary. Engineers don't dress up, especially when working in manufacturing.

Suits for me were a check in the box for certain occasions. The most tailored suit I've ever owned is this one, which mostly still fits although the jacket is oversized on me because my chest and shoulders are smaller. I wear a 42 jacket and that's a 48. My pants are gathered up in the back as well. I was teaching a Cold War class at the local CC.

[snotrockets]

Totally classic but slim fit with thin lapels and completely plain front no pleats wool suit. Before that every suit I bought was one and done. By the time the next opportunity came around to wear it, the style had long since died a merciful death. Black, thin cut, great with a white shirt and a thin black tie.

Those also went out of fashion since. Wider lapels, more generous cuts are back. Some are almost going all the way back to the 90's zoot suit.

[Chik]

I’d ask for it just because it’s called frogmouth notch

A frogmouth notch sported by a... ;)

1237384-jacques-chirac-le-14-juillet-2004.jpeg

[Drew]

A frogmouth notch sported by a... ;)

I see what you did there...

[echappist]

A frogmouth notch sported by a... ;)

1237384-jacques-chirac-le-14-juillet-2004.jpeg

A mouthpiece for the French? I don’t get it ;)

Jest aside, that’s Jacque Chirac, right? Also, can’t spot difference vis a vis notch lapel. Or is this effectively a shawl lapel with a notch?

[j44ke]

Those also went out of fashion since. Wider lapels, more generous cuts are back. Some are almost going all the way back to the 90's zoot suit.

Casualty of the future.

[Chik]

A mouthpiece for the French? I don’t get it ;)

Jest aside, that’s Jacque Chirac, right? Also, can’t spot difference vis a vis notch lapel. Or is this effectively a shawl lapel with a notch?

Yes, Chirac, always well dressed. Except for the bourgeois tie knot.

The style is in-between a regular notch and a peak, so to speak. With the regular notch, as the lapel exits the collar, its edge continues along the same line / trajectory. With a peak, it turns up and follows the other bottom edge of the collar. The Parisian notch turns up only partially. Not sure if I’m being sufficiently clear but hope you now see it in the picture. It’s not related to a shawl collar.

The extent to which it turns up depends on the particular tailors’ house style.

[echappist]

Yes, Chirac, always well dressed. Except for the bourgeois tie knot.

The style is in-between a regular notch and a peak, so to speak. With the regular notch, as the lapel exits the collar, its edge continues along the same line / trajectory. With a peak, it turns up and follows the other bottom edge of the collar. The Parisian notch turns up only partially. Not sure if I’m being sufficiently clear but hope you now see it in the picture. It’s not related to a shawl collar.

The extent to which it turns up depends on the particular tailors’ house style.

Is the implication that a full-windsor is not befitting for a head of state? As in, fit only for the petit bourgeois?

And to think, i like the windsor style knots (though technically I prefer a Pratt knot), as I like symmetry. Then again, I’m probably just a mere petit bourgeois.

[Chik]

Is the implication that a full-windsor is not befitting for a head of state? As in, fit only for the petit bourgeois?

And to think, i like the windsor style knots (though technically I prefer a Pratt knot), as I like symmetry. Then again, I’m probably just a mere petit bourgeois.

Haha, I was being a troll, fully expecting that that comment will trigger at least a few people. Yes, I was misbehaving.

The Duke of Windsor tends to be credited with that knot, but he did not wear either a full or a half version.

The general idea is that a knot should be a simple one, not a complicated one that signals that the punter is trying too hard, which would be a solecism when it comes to these sorts of things. That means that the preferred knot is the four in hand, which is what the DoW wore. And yes, asymmetrical — as David’s knots were, as well. Some erroneously assume that he did not wear four in hand because of the knot size, not realising that his ties were simply cut a bit wider at the knot area. Symmetry betrays a complicated knot.

That said, I wear a Prince Albert knot with knitted ties, slightly more complicated than a four in hand but asymmetrical. With some woven ties that were given to me, I wear a Prince Albert knot because of the tie’s shape, but otherwise, it’s always the four in hand knot for me.

[Chik]

I once reported to a man who wore clip-on ties because of security concerns — that an attacker might try to strangle him… and then, surprise! His concerns were not entirely unjustified, but those clip-on ties are almost always symmetrical. I can’t look at a symmetrically knotted tie and not think of clip-ons.

[echappist]

No worries, it’s all good. Fwiw, i read it as tongue-in-cheek, not trollish. My post was to understand the full contextual of your post. Sussing out full context is sometimes difficult in online exchanges.

Btw, i associate trolling with snideness and cynicism, neither of which was exhibited by your posts. Best recent example of which i’ve come across might be the owner of another bike-related forum wearing a shirt that reads People for the Eating of Tasty Animals, while promoting a forum sponsor that sells steak.

Thankfully, we very rarely have such drivel here on VSalon.

[Chik]

Oh, just to be doubly clear, when I mentioned a Prince Albert, I did mean a knot rather than a piercing. Just saying.