trends in frame-building ?? in poem form.

[Dave Kirk]

My guess is that we will look back on the BB30 in a similar way as we do elevated chainstays. They are IMO an answer to a question that wasn't asked.

Way back in the day I raced a MTB and I at various times had different team bikes. One was a Fisher that had press in BB bearings and clip rings to locate the bearings laterally. It worked pretty well until you needed to service it and then the fun began. In the end that frame (a gorgeous fillet custom built by Eisentraut) ended up in the dumpster as so many press in BB frames did because all the pounding and grit stretched the BB shell out just a tad and then the bearings were allowed to knock around in there........ and once they start knocking the impacts made it worse and it was a downhill slide from there. Many years later I did a few big repairs on Fat Chances that had the BB shell compromised - the old ones had press in bearings and many suffred the same fate as my old team bike.

To me the press in headset and the screw in BB make wonderful sense. They allow for the bearing/frame interface to be replaced if needed. No need to toss a perfectly good frame. It's a wonderful design that will allow frames to have a very long life. I seriously doubt that we will see well used Trekandales 10 years from now that don't have serious bearing knock inside the BB shell. But that's OK I guess as I don't think many folks feel they need to last more than a few seasons anyway.

As so many have said before it seems to me that the BB30 was designed for the mass makers to have an easier and quicker way to build frames and assemble them. Nothing wrong with that in the slightest. But until there is compelling and solid reason to make the change I'll do what I do knowing that I won't get a distressed calls years down the road with a floppy BB.

As an aside - I had a customer in the queue (a very nice and reasonable man as far as I could tell) who walked away from his deposit because I wouldn't build him a frame around the BB30 standard. He was worried that even a year or two down the road he wouldn't be able to get parts or service on a threaded BB. He really thought that BB30 was a new standard. I tried to explain why the BB30 was an idea whose time IMO had not come but he was convinced by the market hype and I haven't heard from him since. Too bad really.

Humbly,

Dave

[steve garro]

Once you get rid of quills and oversize the steerer, yield numbers go way up if you change your force vectors appropriately.

beautiful in it's simplicity...... steve.

[Round]

So, would you see this kind of open discussion from the traditional, old-line Euro Builders? I intentionally exclude Dario from that group since he is SO much different from those I would put in the group. My intention is not to put the Euro builders down, but it seems to me that the American tradition of builder cooperation is somewhat unusual. Although I am sure that some of us keep some secrets, but for the most part, we are pretty open to helping others. I know that I have gotten a lot of good advice from a long list of builders and in return, I have helped others with things that we have figured out. Maybe I am wrong, but I doubt that there is as much of that cooperation going on over the pond. And maybe that is why most of the American builders seem to make really good stuff. Cool.

i agree, that's all true and my opinion is that is one of the most important reason because the american builders are soo strong in the framebuilding world.

[steve garro]

Way back in the day I raced a MTB and I at various times had different team bikes. One was a Fisher that had press in BB bearings and clip rings to locate the bearings laterally. It worked pretty well until you needed to service it and then the fun began. In the end that frame (a gorgeous fillet custom built by Eisentraut) ended up in the dumpster as so many press in BB frames did because all the pounding and grit stretched the BB shell out just a tad and then the bearings were allowed to knock around in there........ and once they start knocking the impacts made it worse and it was a downhill slide from there. Many years later I did a few big repairs on Fat Chances that had the BB shell compromised - the old ones had press in bearings and many suffred the same fate as my old team bike.

Dave

that is exactly what i am talking about! i was a mechanic/racer during that whole era and remember all that shit. what a pain in the ass. all the bearings were different ID and OD too. and it was fishers, fat chances, kleins and others......one thing Dave, just for history's sake - i believe all the team fishers were fillet brazed by Tom Teesdale.......just sayin'. steve.

[EnginCycles]

that is exactly what i am talking about! i was a mechanic/racer during that whole era and remember all that shit. what a pain in the ass. all the bearings were different ID and OD too. and it was fishers, fat chances, kleins and others......one thing Dave, just for history's sake - i believe all the team fishers were fillet brazed by Tom Teesdale.......just sayin'. steve.

This press in bearing thing is way older than the mid 80's and lots of them are still kicking (the French bikes i am talking about). As is always stated there is nothing new and if we browse the Data Book there are lots of bikes with press in bearings. I agree the Fats (Cook Bros BB), Merlins and Fishers all had flaws in the lack of size. The Merlin was even smaller than 1.5" shells. The Klein was the least likely to fail because he used the largest O.D. for a shell (except it was Al which we all know lacks the strength for not ovalizing). The BB30 is bigger than all these designs and the shell is hardly wimpy and if maintained (KEY!!) it will last. What bike won't crap out if neglected? Shit, bikes rust but that is not stopping us from using steel! Again i am not saying it is better, just sayin!

Cheers,
Drew

IF i was building a track tandem i would want it used in the stoker BB for making the bike stiffer, allowing for a bigger boom tube with full miter purchase and the ability to run huge chainstays with the miter lowered away from the seat tube and again getting bigger purchase for the weld/braze.

[steve garro]

OK - one thing - grease guard technology MUST be implemented........whadda ya say? that would DRASTICALLY increase lifespan - it would suck to make something that only took what would be seen as the next ISIS a few years after it was built, and that's all the frame would take - at least you can chuck an ISIS BB and screw in say, a Phil........ steve.

[Dave Kirk]

i believe all the team fishers were fillet brazed by Tom Teesdale.......just sayin'. steve.

That may have been true at one point. When I got mine I talked with Al directly to go over the details and it was shipped from his shop so there you go.

Dave

[jerk]

it is odd that we live in a time where headsets are residing inside the tube and bottom brackets are moving outside the tube. to me, bb30 like 1 1/8th headtubes and even the newer 1 1/8th to 1 1/4 headtubes has more to do with allowing for different materials to be used. cheap aluminum steerer tubes insured the acceptance of the 1 1/8th headtube standard, and carbon steerer tubed forks with carbon crowns and races seem to be insuring the standardization of these new designs with 1 1/4 and even 1 1/2 lower bearings. my thought is that bb30 is much the same. the standard will allow for bottom bracket bearing to migrate back into the frame itself, and allow for things like intergrated carbon spindles and the like to be uses in crank and bb assemblies.

now all this begs the question, when standards are determined through factory production efficiency schedules and composite and other non-ferrous materials, where do you frame builders hold the line? tom seems to have developed an even lighter fork steerer and front end through going 1 1/8th with steel; while alot of other builders still use the standard 1 inch headtube that seemingly makes the most sense with steel steerers. remember the 68 and 70mm bb shells are really the last vestiges of standardization from the days when all real race bikes were made out of steel. how do the industry trends designed solely to fullfill the needs of massive factory style off-shore production of high-quality bicycles equate into newer and better hand built frames? do they? are the relevent? do they hold you back or encourage you?

thanks,

jerk

[steve garro]

That may have been true at one point. When I got mine I talked with Al directly to go over the details and it was shipped from his shop so there you go.

Dave

proven wrong again! :cheers: totally OT: is eisentraut still building? off to work, steve.
steve.

[e-RICHIE]

how do the industry trends designed solely to fullfill the needs of massive factory style off-shore production of high-quality bicycles equate into newer and better hand built frames? do they? are the relevent? do they hold you back or encourage you?

JOE GILLES - "You're Norma Desmond, you used to be in pictures.
You used to be big."
NORMA - "I am big, it's the pictures that got small atmo."

[RudAwkning]

proven wrong again! :cheers: totally OT: is eisentraut still building? off to work, steve.
steve.

Albert is busy making wine. I believe his workshop has more or less been converted into a wood working shop where two of his sons build custom furniture. Zach Eisentraut has thought about coming out of retirement, but apparently everytime the topic comes up his dad razzes him. "Why the fuck would you want to pick up a torch again?"

My friend Eric, who is also the son of the owner of Stone's Cyclery, teaches and plays golf with Zach. The idea of resurrecting the Traut name has come up a few times. I'm gonna be first in line if he decides to start brazing again. His fillets are as beautiful as his father's :D

[hampco]

albert's wine is pretty good too - pal mike b gave me some a while ago. i think there may have been a sangiovese, possibly a petit syrah, that caught my attention.

[crumpton]

don't be scared. be free to put the bearings anywhere you like. be more free to let others put em where they like.

[Archibald]

How bike industry standards are made:

Yo Daddio, what's up with those BB30 shells you're making? How come the ID's vary with the material?

Well, nobody has a reamer for them so I made the ID's small so builder's could bore them out and the ID is based on the material I use to make them.

Huh. My problem is that I can't make adapters for our fixtures to accommodate them with more than a single rough ID and a finished ID. I don't want to make a hundred of these things and have them be all fucked up. Right now, our adapters are 1.610 on one side and 1.651 on the other. This ain't good for either of us and a lot of these guys won't be able to bore them accurately and 40-thou is way too much to hand ream.

Yeah, it sucks. The folks who set the standard were supposed to have reamers for them but we never heard from them. How about you make your adapters at 1.640- and I'll make the shells at 1.640+ and our shit will be golden?

That'd be perfect for us. You're peachy! What's the scoop on the reamers though?

Dunno. They had some guy working on it, but then we quit hearing from him.

You have the contact info on him and I'll give him a call to see WTFO?

Yeah, his name is X. Give him a call and let me know what you find out.

No worries, will do & thanks.

Riiiiiiiiing.

Hello, this is me, can I speak to X?

Sorry, X doesn't work here anymore?

Really?

Yes.

BB30?

No.

Really?

Yes.

No BB30 reamer?

Oh, right, we have some other guy doing that now.

Does he have a name and can I talk to him?

No.

Really?

No.

You guys aren't really taking this seriously are you?

Why don't you send us an email defining the problem as you see it and I'll make sure it gets to the right people.

Who would the right people be?

I don't know.

Perfect.

[Dave Kirk]

I've done business with that guy! Or should I say tried to.

Dave