consumers: how much does frame price influence your initial thoughts on quality

[e-RICHIE]

let's put it this way atmo -

it is certainly possible, and even probable, that any one of us can
make a short run of frames to celebrate something - anything - and
not have it be the ne plus ultra of our experiences and or working
skills. it's just a grouping a frames to mark a place in time and/or a
special occasion. in some circles, it goes against common sense to
price these gems, as it were, at anything less than retail plus 1000
percent. to each his own, and it's no one else's business except the
two folks involved in the transaction. on the other hand, you will never
ever shake the stigma of a low price once you set it. that you go that
route will be part of your timeline forever atmo. ps while there is some
chat about mike d and prices on another thread, my post here is general
in nature and has nothing to do with that.

[rphetteplace]

let's put it this way atmo -

it is certainly possible, and even probable, that any one of us can
make a short run of frames to celebrate something - anything - and
not have it be the ne plus ultra of our experiences and or working
skills. it's just a grouping a frames to mark a place in time and/or a
special occasion. in some circles, it goes against common sense to
price these gems, as it were, at anything less than retail plus 1000
percent. to each his own, and it's no one else's business except the
two folks involved in the transaction. on the other hand, you will never
ever shake the stigma of a low price once you set it. that you go that
route will be part of your timeline forever atmo. ps while there is some
chat about mike d and prices on another thread, my post here is general
in nature and has nothing to do with that.

I disagree. Not to name names but there is a certain uber-hip builder that has doubled his base prices over the last 2 years. Doesn't this disprove this?

[e-RICHIE]

I disagree. Not to name names but there is a certain uber-hip builder that has doubled his base prices over the last 2 years. Doesn't this disprove this?

i need names/examples, not e-conjecture atmo.

[csbmo]

before i can frame and hang a builder's invoice, i choose that pro based on their oeuvre.


lady luck has rubbed against me several times with bikes designed and built for me by TK, RS, and MFZ. in doing so, she did not lift my wallet, i did that myself without hesitation because said pros have a known history of fabricating quality in that specific cycling arena that delivers happy... TK: ti road, RS: steel road, MFZ: steel cross.

money had little to do with it.

[rphetteplace]

i need names/examples, not e-conjecture atmo.

pm sent!

[suspectdevice]

I'm of the mind that frames should always be as inexpensive as possible. geometry, materials and quality of fabrication are what I want to sell. I don't want to compete with folks who have reputation as bespoke craftsmen or "artists". I want to beat and compete with those who make their stuff in taiwan. For me, building bikes is a cultural and political crusade more than an aestehtic or artistic pursuit. Smash the corporate oinks, drown them in their own bullshit if I can... You can get Spectrum to paint anything... I don't even want paint on my bikes. Just sweat, blood and energy gel.
I've never paid retail for a bike in my life (my first real bike I bought as a bike shop rat, my second I got for free as a half decent jr. racer), and I think that has had a valuable effect on my view of bicycles.
I just want to make ruthless black ano killing machines, put the cheapest possible parts on them, and send them into the field to reap the souls and legs of infidels who don't beleive in my vision of american manufacturing might and no-frills all performance racing and riding machines.

As someone with a liberal-arts degree, I also love all of the super dialed, super loved on bikes out there, but I know deep down I'll never be able to afford one. For the 2 years I wasn't either a fully sponsored rider or the physical embodiment of a bike company, I bought and rode Giant's (happily, fwiw).

There are 3 types of people who buy high-end bikes; Aesthetits, Racers and Wannabee's

I like the first two.

[e-RICHIE]

There are 3 types of people who buy high-end bikes; Aesthetits, <cut>

are we talking smith college here atmo?

[suspectdevice]

are we talking smith college here atmo?

If you only knew how many seven sisters rugby players could fit in the back of my prison van....

[gggross]

Interesting thread. Is this about buying a custom bike or business? Or both perhaps? In my own bike buying experience, the things that mattered were the builder's reputation, how I felt about the builder and his product, the price and how the product made me feel.

I run a $150 million business. The way I make decisions there is very different. We have a good product(actually its a service) that comes at a slightly higher than average price. People are willing to pay for that if they "perceive" it as a good value to them. Some do, some don't. We have to make pricing decisions based on how a customer's needs fit into our needs. There are those folks that want a relationship and fair value exchange, and to some, it's just a transaction.

The point is that I don't beleive that most of the folks out here on this sort of website make decisions about buying a custom bike simply because of price. Look at how many positive reactions there are everytime someone posts a great new bike.

It's not a simple math formula. Part of the process of selecting is the interaction. Have fun.

[rickygarni]

Pegorettis are mentioned in this thread quite often, so I will share my experience.

I bought my first (Fina Estampa) a little over 6 years ago. It wasn't a 'prestige' item then (or perceived as such) because it wasn't very familiar. I will admit (with a pink blush in my cheeks) that I became intrigued by an article in BICYCLING, that referred to Dario as "The Best Builder You Have Never Heard Of."

The fact that it was, according to the article, being purchased by members of the peloton out of their own pockets and repainted team colors (true or not, I don't know) almost clinched the deal for me.

I had never bought a frame that I had never ridden (at that point, with the exception of certain eBay items that I was familiar with by brand/model) and so I had a certain amount of trepidation. This trepidation was overcome when I asked a certain framebuilder who said, "Buy it. It will not make you unhappy." –Somehow I felt that this was the ultimate compliment via crafty understatement. And so I did. And I wasn't.

Being a larger tubed aluminum, I immediately compared it in my mind to my former AL Klein Quantum II. It had similar riding characteristics, but somehow if felt tweaked to complete rightness, a rightness that I didn't know was missing in the first place. It was also, for lack of a better word, either the friendliest or happiest frame I had ever ridden.

I am getting a little off subject here. The point is, the value is what attracted me at the time – I bought a one year old (new) frame for $1200. The lore and the pedigree (and mystery, at the time) as well as the value had a productive and meaningful confluence in my decision to buy.

And I do still buy Pegorettis, but at a very very modest pace. I.E., I think I am about to purchase my final one. I believe that we all become somewhat fixed on a concept of reasonable (or at least affordable) in our flexy bone stage and often (at least for me) that becomes rather rigid in our elderliness. For me, that number was always: one bike / 2K. I now stretch it to 2.99K, but my heart (and much beyond that) cannot go beyond that.

I am sure that some of these 10K machines are really quite wonderful. I am not certain that if I had the money that I would ever find out. My mind, heart, pocketbook is fixed, I fear; and I still have more fun with value than prestige.

[mschol17]

In my experience the issue isn't that if someone's price is too low I think their product is poor, I think that they're a great deal. The problem with Rolland Della Santa offering a lugged frame and fork for less than 2k isn't RDS's, since he's obviously comfortable offering the bikes at that price. The problem is the builders who need to charge more than that to have a viable living and whose product is ultimately compared to a Della Santa.

I don't know, but I think the established guys price the bikes what they need to price them at. They're not getting rich off of it or living in poverty either. However, the existence of the aforementioned high quality frames at low prices is tough on new/upcoming builders than anything else. Setting the market that low for experienced builders isn't good for anyone, since the new builders eventually want to be experienced builders who can earn a decent living.


As someone who did a ton of research before ordering my frame I knew full well what I was getting and what I wasn't with the price I am paying. If money was no object I would have certainly made a different decision, and maybe if the builder was charging a higher price I would have made a different decision...

[swoop]

its a fine line between earnest reality and spinal tap and i just want to say, 'hello cleveland'.

[SteveP]

There are 3 types of people who buy high-end bikes; Aesthetits, Racers and Wannabee's

there are 2 types of framebuilders.
there are masters and there are apprentices.

why save money and buy from an apprentice?

[Roman]

there are 2 types of framebuilders.
there are masters and there are apprentices.

why save money and buy from an apprentice?

A true apprentice, or a wannabe framebuilder?

[Roman]

I'm of the mind that frames should always be as inexpensive as possible. geometry, materials and quality of fabrication are what I want to sell. I don't want to compete with folks who have reputation as bespoke craftsmen or "artists". I want to beat and compete with those who make their stuff in taiwan. For me, building bikes is a cultural and political crusade more than an aestehtic or artistic pursuit. Smash the corporate oinks, drown them in their own bullshit if I can... You can get Spectrum to paint anything... I don't even want paint on my bikes. Just sweat, blood and energy gel.
I've never paid retail for a bike in my life (my first real bike I bought as a bike shop rat, my second I got for free as a half decent jr. racer), and I think that has had a valuable effect on my view of bicycles.
I just want to make ruthless black ano killing machines, put the cheapest possible parts on them, and send them into the field to reap the souls and legs of infidels who don't beleive in my vision of american manufacturing might and no-frills all performance racing and riding machines.

As someone with a liberal-arts degree, I also love all of the super dialed, super loved on bikes out there, but I know deep down I'll never be able to afford one. For the 2 years I wasn't either a fully sponsored rider or the physical embodiment of a bike company, I bought and rode Giant's (happily, fwiw).

There are 3 types of people who buy high-end bikes; Aesthetits, Racers and Wannabee's

I like the first two.

You mean aesthetes?

[Chance Legstrong]

I am commissioning Zank for a road bike in 2010.

I decided on Mike based on the feedback from owners on this forum and the exchanges he and I have had. The only price i was/am worried about is what components and wheels i was going to hang on it, not in the frame itself because at the end of the day, if it turns out to be what i requested, and it fits then it is worth whatever it ends up costing. (and that is wholly dependent on my honest feedback to him)

there will always be egos in business who will ask for more than their "competition". Which leads me to my thought on this...are frame builders really in competition with one another? I mean, if i wanted an artist to paint a or photograph a portrait of me i would choose the characteristics i most align with and want not any of the commodity driven factors. In the bike business i see S and T in competition with one another but not Zank, Drew, Sacha, RS, et al. To me they are islands unto themselves. ATMO

[e-RICHIE]

Which leads me to my thought on this...are frame builders really in competition with one another? <cut>

i say never, and i have said as much since day one in the 70s atmo.

[steve garro]

FWIIW Nobody except Mike Desalov has any business speculating his pricing and all the more because he SAID why and what this is about.

it's not about mike, or this great offer he is extending to his clients. i was just using him as an example. mike is a GREAT guy. you are correct in that i or we already know all about his intent as it was written out plain'n'simple. i was only wanting to hear about how price perception was viewed by the group. great discussion, all. steve.

[steve garro]

are frame builders really in competition with one another?

i've never felt that. hell, we talk to each other outside the public sphere, buy, sell, trade, visit.......i guess "we" feel the public will make their choices and all you can do as a builder to influence a client one way or another is to just be yourself and produce the best work you can. at least that's how i see it. you "click" or you don't.......... steve.

[Too Tall]

it's not about mike, or this great offer he is extending to his clients. i was just using him as an example. mike is a GREAT guy. you are correct in that i or we already know all about his intent as it was written out plain'n'simple. i was only wanting to hear about how price perception was viewed by the group. great discussion, all. steve.

Yes sir, this a great thread and appreciate you starting this. (ahh) I was feeling an apparently unfounded need to thwart speculation on what seemed obvious to me. Derrr Our forum reigns supreme...who'd a thunk a civil discussion would break out?! ;)