What do you think about 142 spacing on hard tails, and what dropouts do you use?

[Boedie]

An analogy that comes too mind is, "Who needs an 1 1/8" lugged head tube. 1" is just fine."

I just built a 142 x 12 hard tail, because the customer requested it. I used the Paragon sliders. I really like the interchangeability of the plates. I can honestly say I do not see much benefit over a 135 qr, however I believe it will become the standard. The only thing I had to do different was purchase a new dummy axle, so it wasn't any sweat off my back. Same thing with tapered steerer tubes..... Or who knows, maybe we will all look back on tapered steerers and think, "what were we thinking? A straight 1.5" steerer should have been the standard all along.

As for 142 x12 for a tiny woman. Well, I can't see much benefit other than interchangeability of wheels with other people. From your standpoint, I can understand why you want to use a different dropout other than Paragons- brass vs. silver. I go through that debate all the time. I really prefer to brass braze a dropout, especially a mtn. bike dropout. I feel there is more strength over time with brass -maybe just my perception. TIG welding the Stainless paragons seems to be the way to go- in my opinion.

I gotta say through axles are kind of cool though. They seem to make more sense from a function and design standpoint.

Good luck in your decision.
Chris

[Will Neide]

How does this work?
The plates are thinner, or off set, or what?

For more clarification, this is for a gal who is maybe 110 lbs total (45 kilos?) with cycling gear, and I want to make her a nice, light frame.

Keep the ideas coming, let's cover this.

Actual experiences, please

Thanks guys - Steve.

Here's this little blurb about 12x142 on pinkbike with a video explanation via Trek.

12 mm x 142 mm Axle Standard Explained - Pinkbike

I don't know which method has a weight advantange. I would imagine the standard QR would have the edge. If she just wants 142 for the sake of 142 then I don't think she'll notice any benefit at all, BUT if she HAS to have it then I don't think it would hurt her. If using Rockers she has the option in the future to go 142.

[steve garro]

, I can understand why you want to use a different dropout other than Paragons- brass vs. silver. I go through that debate all the time. I really prefer to brass braze a dropout, especially a mtn. bike dropout. I feel there is more strength over time with brass
Good luck in your decision.
Chris

I have done maybe 100 stainless sliders & the only problems were the ones with lightening holes.
I would like a DO somewhat like the DR2010 but a TA - just a plate, not a moving part, right?
- Garro.

[steve garro]

If using Rockers she has the option in the future to go 142.

I think the frame will be too small for rockers - the rear triangle will be too tight for the chain stay mount disc - no, I'm not going to do a big curved SS just because.
She has not even chimed in on it, she's being told it's what she wants, if you get my drift.
All The Usual Suspects.
- Garro.

[Amaro Bikes]

she's being told it's what she wants

Universe period!

[steve garro]

Universe period!

Yeah, right?

So, is the only difference with the Shimano vs the DT-Swiss 12mm QR's that the shimano one interfaces the R dropout with the star-fangled-nut like a Fox 15mm TA/QR and the DT just threads into the R dropout like a standard QR nut?
Right?
- Garro.

[VertigoCycles]

Have any of you seen or used one of the 2souls ones that use the syntace axle?
Good stuff, thanks!
- Garro.

I think Curtis has used those a lot.

[Applesauce]

Have any of you seen or used one of the 2souls ones that use the syntace axle?
Good stuff, thanks!
- Garro.

I have no experiences building frames (not recently, anyway!) but I have lots of trail- and salesfloor-experience with (I think) all the current examples. I like the Syntace and other countersunk varieties least. I totally don't see the "ease of a QR" preserved in a system that requires a decently long 5 mm hex wrench: correct me if I'm wrong, but those axles read 15 or 18 Nm on the business end, and that's more than most sexually satisfied folks should be able to get from a multitool. Perhaps it's just an arbitrary torque spec based on thread diameter and pitch - usually about 12 x 1.5 - and material - aluminum. But that makes me wonder what the actual torque required to keep the thing in place is, and why someone didn't bother figuring it out...

And then I realize I'm making it more complicated than it needs to be. The systems with flat business-side faces and something resembling an actual QR are far more user friendly, and retain the actual convenience of an actual QR (except Kona's, which as noted is functional but characteristically utilitarian, not at all classy...). Keep in mind that thread pitches (variously 1, 1.5, and 1.75) render most systems not cross-compatible.

Unfortunately for the framebuilder who's not connected to the supply chains of Chaiwan, that leaves you with Shimano's very, very nice buy very, very pricy item, or DT Swiss' stupid-hunk-of-crap spinny thing. (The only thing I like about the DT Swiss skewers is all the opportunities they give me to bring out the Channellock 460s for work on $6k-$10k whizzy bikes. Man, is the 460 ever and underrated and underused tool...) I think the industry is likely moving toward something resembling a standard, but for the time being, if your hardtail customer insists on a 142 x 12 rear end, I'd go with Shimano's system and never look back.

Having said that, I felt no difference whatsoever on my Raijin moving between standard Shimano QR and 142 x 12 on the very same Hope hub/Stan's Flow EX rim. And now that I've ditched the noisy-but-interchangeable Hope for QR-only XTR, I'm never going back!

[VertigoCycles]

I have no experiences building frames (not recently, anyway!) but I have lots of trail- and salesfloor-experience with (I think) all the current examples. I like the Syntace and other countersunk varieties least. I totally don't see the "ease of a QR" preserved in a system that requires a decently long 5 mm hex wrench: correct me if I'm wrong, but those axles read 15 or 18 Nm on the business end, and that's more than most sexually satisfied folks should be able to get from a multitool. Perhaps it's just an arbitrary torque spec based on thread diameter and pitch - usually about 12 x 1.5 - and material - aluminum. But that makes me wonder what the actual torque required to keep the thing in place is, and why someone didn't bother figuring it out...

And then I realize I'm making it more complicated than it needs to be. The systems with flat business-side faces and something resembling an actual QR are far more user friendly, and retain the actual convenience of an actual QR (except Kona's, which as noted is functional but characteristically utilitarian, not at all classy...). Keep in mind that thread pitches (variously 1, 1.5, and 1.75) render most systems not cross-compatible.

Unfortunately for the framebuilder who's not connected to the supply chains of Chaiwan, that leaves you with Shimano's very, very nice buy very, very pricy item, or DT Swiss' stupid-hunk-of-crap spinny thing. (The only thing I like about the DT Swiss skewers is all the opportunities they give me to bring out the Channellock 460s for work on $6k-$10k whizzy bikes. Man, is the 460 ever and underrated and underused tool...) I think the industry is likely moving toward something resembling a standard, but for the time being, if your hardtail customer insists on a 142 x 12 rear end, I'd go with Shimano's system and never look back.

Having said that, I felt no difference whatsoever on my Raijin moving between standard Shimano QR and 142 x 12 on the very same Hope hub/Stan's Flow EX rim. And now that I've ditched the noisy-but-interchangeable Hope for QR-only XTR, I'm never going back!

If you're following along, WRT small builders, Paragon makes their dropouts available in the common thread pitch sizes and the builder can go with the wonderful Shimano QR or the stupid spinny DT one. Either way we're covered.

All that said, I fail to see how this is an advantage on standard hardtails and it sure makes building the damn thing a lot more complicated. If people want 'em, I'll build 'em and figuring out how to do it efficiently and accurately is part of what keeps me interested in this trade.

[steve garro]

If you're following along, WRT small builders, Paragon makes their dropouts available in the common thread pitch sizes and the builder can go with the wonderful Shimano QR or the stupid spinny DT one. Either way we're covered.

All that said, I fail to see how this is an advantage on standard hardtails and it sure makes building the damn thing a lot more complicated. If people want 'em, I'll build 'em and figuring out how to do it efficiently and accurately is part of what keeps me interested in this trade.

Exactly = just trying to adapt, give clients informed options, and trying to save them from future incompatibility or market/water cooler driven misinformation.
Thanks for all the info, and keep it coming = this doesn't look like it's going away.
Well, maybe the Maxle option.
- Garro.

[Mike Mcdermid]

Exactly = just trying to adapt, give clients informed options, and trying to save them from future incompatibility or market/water cooler driven misinformation.
Thanks for all the info, and keep it coming = this doesn't look like it's going away.
Well, maybe the Maxle option.
- Garro.

Steve just buy yourself a cnc machine and go crazy (from what i here you just press a green button and it figures the rest out for you) ,everytime a new standard comes along you can just make the next big thing

its the only way to be futureproof

[Amaro Bikes]

If people want 'em, I'll build 'em

I don't like to work like that, otherwise I would end up building bikes up to other people mind's wishes, and not according to my own point of view, which of course can be wrong and open to receive influences and updates, but not just "I'll do what you want". If so, I could end up doing long headtube and sloping road frames with bbright and hydraulic disc brakes fitted with dynamo hubs to charge the Iphone through a usb stem cap.... Sorry, you'll jave to look somewhere else, each builder has different taste, just question of finding the one on your same tune.

Exactly = just trying to adapt, give clients informed options, and trying to save them from future incompatibility or market/water cooler driven misinformation.
Thanks for all the info, and keep it coming = this doesn't look like it's going away.
Well, maybe the Maxle option.
- Garro.

I do agree in the need of having the whole information so to give customer's a "documented" option/choice, but definetly will not build something I do not "believe" in, so for example I will try to explain always the different tech specs and reasons about each option, but then say why I would recommend this insetad of the other, with some being favourites, other less preferred and even some "no way" ones.
The sad thing of all this, is that due to how the market and whole business is going on lately, it would not matter any more if you trust one system or another, but whatever the industry decides is "best" creating unexpected standards to follow, and what is really disturbing now is that you'll never really know what "standard" will survive till the future arrives, and it's not like they just offer one at a time, but throw to the market several different ones, so you have to be a bit premonition guy so to avoid building a frame out of date before even starting.

On the 142-12mm axles, it all seems to be going to a lighter/stiffer configurations, so most likely either tapered forks and thru axle options are "a must" ready to survive as daily standard, including road bikes. BUT, as it happened with BB30, I might prefer to wait a little bit to see if it definetly stays as it's or if the actual 142x12 (syntace origin) will not be the end result.

Electronic shifting, hydraulic brakes, thru bolts, etc, etc, it's making more and more difficult to build frames "for a lifetime", maybe this will be easier for builders as it won't give those frames the time to accumulate enough fatigue life :o

[Clockwork]

I've used the 2Souls dropouts and like them. They're really simple and have a stout hanger. The only thing I don't like it the shelf for the chainstay. Might be better for TIG guys but it cuts down on the surface area for brazing--easy to remove though.

.

[Clockwork]

And the dummy axle is really easy to make.

[Toby Gallagher]

Hi Steve,

I used the 2soulcycle ones on my recent 29er. I used it because the postage works out better to the UK, than the paragon ones from the US. As far as any difference between thru axle and normal QR, I think you would be hard pushed to tell the difference; I am still in the the learning phase of being a framebuilder, so wanted to try all available options (and this frame was built for me, as a test).
As far as building, it is beautifully simple to use. Similar to using a breezer style dropout.

Only downside to the Syntace is you need a tool to remove the rear wheel.

Clockwork, I like the removal of the Chainstay Ledge, certainly makes it look neater, and stronger too.

Toad 2Souls Dropout.jpg

[steve garro]

Hi Steve,



Only downside to the Syntace is you need a tool to remove the rear wheel.

Then why not use a bolt on 135mm rear wheel?
That takes the same tool to remove it as the Phil Wood singlespeed I just sent out the door.
- Garro.

[Toby Gallagher]

I was just being diplomatic about the choice of axle for this particular 142 system; as opposed to the Shimano or DT swiss versions, which have levers integrated into the axle. I don't mind, as I always have a multitool when out on the bike. It was just a "pros and cons" statement. And I really do think it is the only downside to the Syntace version.

[steve garro]

So, there is a market for a plate/vertical/disc/steel 142x12 Shimano dropout?
I'm having it looked into design wise right now.
- Garro.

[acorn]

I also have noticed a trend of hard tail MTBs starting to tread from 135mm rear axles to 142mm rear thru axles. It may be a sign of things to come. I think people looking at custom frames are hedging on the possibility that, like disc brakes, thru axles may become the standard for years to come. Thru axles are completely prevalent in motorcycle use and the rear ends on those things are rigid too.

[Clockwork]

Just saw this plate type from BTR on Facebook.



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