let's talk marketing

[e-RICHIE]

what works? what doesn't? whose marketing gets us hot?

steevo i think you should also reply to the question(s) you pose atmo.

[crumpton]

so this sub forum/thread is visible to the entire world? strange from a marketing perspective IMO.

my marketing takes the approach of build what i build, build it and they will come. That's pretty low key, non active participation. I did however spend many years in the marketing BU of a very large (over $50B at the time) company.

the word marketing is so vague. there are so many aspects of marketing within a company. some of which have little to do with outreach.

we all participate in "marketing" in one way or another if we are at all involved with a product.

[GSmith]

the word marketing is so vague. there are so many aspects of marketing within a company. some of which have little to do with outreach.

It's only vague if one allows it to be. Philip Kotler, who authored the definitive marketing textbook used in business schools for the past few decades defines it as; "a system of business activities designed to plan, price, promote, and distribute want satisfying goods and services to present and potential customers". His work has often been synthesized as the 4P's; Plan, Price, Promote and Place. Nowhere in the definition does it talk about making anything. In other words, it assumes that if you are making something with the intent to sell it and yield a return sufficient to get back up and do it over again, then you need to plan, price, promote and place the stuff that you make.

Plan in the marketing context means assorting the merch (e.g., road, CX, MTB, BMX, utility, etc.). Price seems obvious and self explanatory, but complex as noted by the thread(s) triggered by DeSalvo's 10 year anniversary offer. Promote is the "P" that most people automatically jump to when they think of marketing in too literal a sense. Promotion is both passive and purposeful. Taking an ad out is typical, but being a stand-up professional in a holistic sense is also promotion, albeit passive. Place is about choices of where to compete (sell direct, through dealers, etc.).

I don't mean to prattle on or be overly pedagogical, but I get PO'd when folks diss marketing, as if it's something unscrupulous. If you're in business, be in it to win it, defining winning on your own terms, but it ain't a hobby, its competition. And you can't compete if you don't earn enough of a return to play more than once.

Just making something and assuming that enough people will; 1) find you, 2) buy from you, and 3) tell enough people about it to drive some to also buy from you is risky business in today's era of information transparency.

Let's assume that your brand or product starts with a point of distinction that folks discover on the random walk, and then it starts to grow because of word of mouth. If you don't take some proactive control of marketing your "voice", you risk two things; knock-offs and brand hijacks by folks that are able to speak louder.

It all comes down to the words of a musician friend of mine; "you can wear that gag if that's your choice, but your thoughts want wings, now give 'em a voice, andale". Marketing is about having a voice and getting people to hear it.

[hampco]

according to wikipedia:

“Marketing refers to the promotion of products & services, advertising, pricing, distribution channels, and branding. The term developed from the original meaning which referred literally to going to market, as in shopping, or going to a market to sell goods or services.

The American Marketing Association (AMA) states, "Marketing is an organizational function and a set of processes for creating, communicating and delivering value to customers and for managing customer relationships in ways that benefit the organization and its stakeholders."

Marketing practice tends to be seen as a creative industry, which includes advertising, distribution and selling. It is also concerned with anticipating the customers' future needs and wants, which are often discovered through market research.”

what works here can be summarized thus:

we sell through cinghiale cycling tours. folks see andy and his guides on their hampstens and his happy customers on their hampstens and they want the fit, the fun, the newbikesmell. having andy as a business partner is huge - no other word for it.

we sell locally. local riders see local riders on hampsten and tournesol and that drives more sales. and i’m here and breathing and riding and picking up the phone and answering email and showing bikes and the shop. this works here in seattle, boulder to a lesser extent

we sell through the internets. i’m active on this forum and before this the other one and i pop up here and there and i like talking about the things that interest me: bigger tires, fenders, riding unpaved roads, frame design and materials. without the internet - and to a lesser extent, bike forums - my company would not be coming up on our tenth anniversary.

we sell through the website. people love the pictures, especially with the bikes shot au naturelle. more and more, the bikes i show on the site are my versions of the platonic ideal for that particular “model”. they’re seldom perfect but some of them are pretty good. some of the models sell, some don’t, but they all seem to belong for now.

using builders such as IF, Moots/KentE, Martin, et. al. takes the question “is the frame well-built?” out of the equation. The question then becomes “are these designs any good? do they move me to become a customer?”

a good logo, a few snazzy duds, some national press - it all helps. but word-of-mouth is still the best.

[suspectdevice]

Everything I know about marketing I learned in Highschool(from the founders of this company). Some guys who I honestly do believe to be among the most talented brand direction and marketing strategists ever. The book I have in the office of all our old catalogs, ads, press clippings and race results is incredibly humbling. The amount of emails I get every day from past customers with 12 year old frames (that's OLD for a mt bike) who just want to shoot the shit, catch up on whats new and talk about last weekend's ride is the sort of inspirational thing that gets me out of bed and into the office in the morning.

My basic marketing plan with Spooky (no particular order)

- Make the best bikes possible
- Make the bikes we want to ride, and the softgoods we want to wear.
- Make sure really approachable, really fast people race for us.
- Don't cultivate an image for the products, cultivate an image and feeling around the people involved.
- Create controversey; be divisive enough that people love you or hate you.
- Manipulate the print media. Free exposure is significantly better than exposure you pay for.
- Be extremely open and communicative with dealers, customers, and even people you piss-off.
- Support other bike co's that share common values and beliefs.

I think that every small custom builder and larger custom shop does these things now. Or at least all the good ones. There is still plenty of differentiation between them all.

It's an awesome time to be in the smaller, craftier end of the bike Industry, IMO.

[mschol17]

From an internet marketing perspective, I think nice photos are really important. That's why I think Hampco is pretty smart hiring a really good photographer and only posting those shots on their site. While it's frustrating to not see continual updates of what they're producing, it's less frustrating than going to a builder's website and squinting at 2" by 2" photos.

[Chris]

a good logo, a few snazzy duds, some national press - it all helps. but word-of-mouth is still the best.

I think this also has more to do with it than people want to admit. Especially the builders themselves. I know people who want a quality (insert frame material here) frame, and although one person may be best for that job, they might go on to the next option due to the branding. I know guys who haven't bought a Strong because they don't want the word Strong on the side of their bike. No disrespect to Steve or Andy at all, but when a friend of mine was considering which steel bike to consider he didn't include a Hampsten on the short list because of the decal of Andy smiling on the seattube. Say that is shallow or whatever, it is what it is and it influences purchases. One of the reasons I think the IF logo works so well is that the number of letters in each word is the same so their logo just works on the bikes.

[hampco]

No disrespect to Steve or Andy at all, but when a friend of mine was considering which steel bike to consider he didn't include a Hampsten on the short list because of the decal of Andy smiling on the seat tube.

i've left the smilin' andy off of more than one frame and doubled up on them when requested. aint no big thang, it's just a sticker. but the deal's off if you don't want the down tube decal.

[Blue Jays]

Taste is such a challenging thing to measure as a component of product marketing.
As an example, Parlee has a peculiar approach for their high-end product, yet the distinct (complete with Smilin' Andy...) solid graphics on my Hampsten Z2 custom elicit approval all the time.
In fact, my contention is that the uniqueness of the Smilin' Andy makes the bike truly stand apart.

[crumpton]

hope i didnt offend, wasnt dissing marketing, quite the contrary. but thanks for demonstrating my point.

It's only vague if one allows it to be. Philip Kotler, who authored the definitive marketing textbook used in business schools for the past few decades defines it as; "a system of business activities designed to plan, price, promote, and distribute want satisfying goods and services to present and potential customers". His work has often been synthesized as the 4P's; Plan, Price, Promote and Place. Nowhere in the definition does it talk about making anything. In other words, it assumes that if you are making something with the intent to sell it and yield a return sufficient to get back up and do it over again, then you need to plan, price, promote and place the stuff that you make.

Plan in the marketing context means assorting the merch (e.g., road, CX, MTB, BMX, utility, etc.). Price seems obvious and self explanatory, but complex as noted by the thread(s) triggered by DeSalvo's 10 year anniversary offer. Promote is the "P" that most people automatically jump to when they think of marketing in too literal a sense. Promotion is both passive and purposeful. Taking an ad out is typical, but being a stand-up professional in a holistic sense is also promotion, albeit passive. Place is about choices of where to compete (sell direct, through dealers, etc.).

I don't mean to prattle on or be overly pedagogical, but I get PO'd when folks diss marketing, as if it's something unscrupulous. If you're in business, be in it to win it, defining winning on your own terms, but it ain't a hobby, its competition. And you can't compete if you don't earn enough of a return to play more than once.

Just making something and assuming that enough people will; 1) find you, 2) buy from you, and 3) tell enough people about it to drive some to also buy from you is risky business in today's era of information transparency.

Let's assume that your brand or product starts with a point of distinction that folks discover on the random walk, and then it starts to grow because of word of mouth. If you don't take some proactive control of marketing your "voice", you risk two things; knock-offs and brand hijacks by folks that are able to speak louder.

It all comes down to the words of a musician friend of mine; "you can wear that gag if that's your choice, but your thoughts want wings, now give 'em a voice, andale". Marketing is about having a voice and getting people to hear it.

[taz]

It's only vague if one allows it to be. Philip Kotler, who authored the definitive marketing textbook used in business schools for the past few decades defines it as; "a system of business activities designed to plan, price, promote, and distribute want satisfying goods and services to present and potential customers". His work has often been synthesized as the 4P's; Plan, Price, Promote and Place. Nowhere in the definition does it talk about making anything. In other words, it assumes that if you are making something with the intent to sell it and yield a return sufficient to get back up and do it over again, then you need to plan, price, promote and place the stuff that you make.

.

Not to be argumentative, but the 4P's that my b-school mkting program taught were PRODUCT, Price, Promotion, Place. Without a product (which includes services as well as physical goods) the other P's would be moot. Plan(ning) is the activity of creating a mix of these 4Ps. If you assume that the product you currently make is the only product option in your marketing mix- you are already limiting your marketing options.

I've read Kotler, but I think Borden and McCarthy preceded him with using the 4P terminology.

Anyway... As an old mkting grad, I appreciate your defense of the role of mkting and use to bristle when people would blithely dismiss mkting as advertising.

- taz

[GSmith]

Not to be argumentative, but the 4P's that my b-school mkting program taught were PRODUCT, Price, Promotion, Place. Without a product (which includes services as well as physical goods) the other P's would be moot. Plan(ning) is the activity of creating a mix of these 4Ps. If you assume that the product you currently make is the only product option in your marketing mix- you are already limiting your marketing options.

I've read Kotler, but I think Borden and McCarthy preceded him with using the 4P terminology.

Anyway... As an old mkting grad, I appreciate your defense of the role of mkting and use to bristle when people would blithely dismiss mkting as advertising.

- taz

It's been a long time since I cracked into any of that stuff, and I suppose it's all theory anyhow.

Practically speaking, I've run large businesses where I always found that marketing people wanted to be product people and product people always thought that they knew best how to market their creations. I found it best to get them to dance at the intersection rather than blur the two disciplines.

I believe strongly that if you create a product born out of a "marketing" concept, it is more likely than not to fail. History is full of examples. Conversely, if product folk are left to market things, they tend to get all geeked out on features and benefits that the consumer doesn't really care about, and miss the finer points of creating an emotional context for them.

[suspectdevice]

I believe strongly that if you create a product born out of a "marketing" concept, it is more likely than not to fail. History is full of examples. Conversely, if product folk are left to market things, they tend to get all geeked out on features and benefits that the consumer doesn't really care about, and miss the finer points of creating an emotional context for them.

An observation;
When I pick up Velonews or that ilk, most of the marketing in see from Trek, Specialized, etc is just that. 18% more, 22% less, etc..

For some reason, right now (or pre September?) most of the majors in our biz have been selling or attempting to sell to the Gadget crowd.

I don't get why... Unless that's all they have to say.

[crumpton]

snip *.*

[GSmith]

snip *.*

Sorry, just don't understand the code...

[GSmith]

An observation;
When I pick up Velonews or that ilk, most of the marketing in see from Trek, Specialized, etc is just that. 18% more, 22% less, etc..

For some reason, right now (or pre September?) most of the majors in our biz have been selling or attempting to sell to the Gadget crowd.

I don't get why... Unless that's all they have to say.

It's sad that they don't have more to say, and why their principal marketing strategy is to control distribution through concept stores.

Let's play a game. Name the brand, and in three words or less, what it stands for.

For example:

Coke = refreshment
Nike = competitive sport
Ralph Lauren = aristocracy, and so on...

Trek = ?
Specialized = ?
Giant = ?

[e-RICHIE]

Let's play a game. Name the brand, and in three words or less, what it stands for.

For example:

Coke = refreshment
Nike = competitive sport
Ralph Lauren = aristocracy, and so on...

Trek = ?
Specialized = ?
Giant = ?

diversion at (my) happy hour -
they're not making bikes; they're making money atmo.
harshmo!

[Roman]

It's sad that they don't have more to say, and why their principal marketing strategy is to control distribution through concept stores.

Let's play a game. Name the brand, and in three words or less, what it stands for.

For example:

Coke = refreshment
Nike = competitive sport
Ralph Lauren = aristocracy, and so on...

Trek = ?
Specialized = ?
Giant = ?

Trek = Armstrongian Domination
Specialized = Boonenian Skunkworks
Giant = Laminated in China

[davids]

It's sad that they don't have more to say, and why their principal marketing strategy is to control distribution through concept stores.

Let's play a game. Name the brand, and in three words or less, what it stands for.

For example:

Coke = refreshment
Nike = competitive sport
Ralph Lauren = aristocracy, and so on...

Trek = ?
Specialized = ?
Giant = ?

Trek = high-tech plastic
Specialized = high-tech plastic
Giant = high-tech plastic

[GSmith]

FWIW, I wasn't trying to crap on any of the big bike brands, I'm just trying to make the point that good marketing over time should result in an almost instantaneous, positive emotive association when people see your name/brand/logo.

What I find fascinating is that so many folks think that all you have to do is make a great product. Like em or not, all of these companies make really good bikes. I've never ridden a Madone, or a TCR, or a Tarmac, but I'll dare to say it here that these are very good bikes, if all you want is a bike in the literal sense. What they lack, at least from my lens, is any sense of soul. No emotional context means it's just a thing... even if it's a really good thing.

As I was reflecting on this, I started to think of the people that I ride with that do own these rigs, and while risky to paint with a broad brush, for the most part, they ride for the ride, and all of the bike culture, history, etc., means very little to them. In almost all cases, they never talk about their bikes. In some cases they ride what they ride because of a relationship with their local shop, in which case the shop's "brand" has made the connection, but the bike is still just a tool or appliance, even though they take their riding as serious as anyone.

All this says to me is that there is huge, untapped potential for smaller builders to "inform" these people and help make a connection for them. That takes marketing.