Is this the case for a seat tube reamer?

[Amaro Bikes]

Curt, to me the real meaning of this frame has already happened learning about the needs on seat tube thickness and what reaming means. Even if they would be the most expensive tubes around, three tubes is quite a reasonable price for such a good lesson (of course, none of those tubes would be a complete lesson without places like velocipede and people like steve/drew/etc, otherwise the lesson would have arrive much later in a different shape: a broken frame with hopefully not a broken friend).

[Curt Goodrich]

Curt, to me the real meaning of this frame has already happened learning about the needs on seat tube thickness and what reaming means. Even if they would be the most expensive tubes around, three tubes is quite a reasonable price for such a good lesson (of course, none of those tubes would be a complete lesson without places like velocipede and people like steve/drew/etc, otherwise the lesson would have arrive much later in a different shape: a broken frame with hopefully not a broken friend).

I'd add that there's much more to be learned from this experience. Repairing it now like Rody outlined will help to cement the learning i.e after the repair he'll likely never repeat the mistake. The OP has already shown a reluctance to throw away the whole frame. The worry of a broken friend is avoided if he follows my and others advice to keep the frame for himself. Steve & Drew's advice is fine and I don't disagree with it. I just think it's a little tone deaf to the OP. No offense intended.

[Sean Hennessy]

Just a quick question regarding you method. do you weld the sleeve in with filler? or is it a fuse without filler? I would like to try this method, seems to open up a few tubing options.

Cheers Sean
The seat tube is truly the spine of the entire frame and needs great attention to detail. Here is a blog post on how I make mine...

Groovy Cycleworks 330-988-0537: Creating the spine of the frame...

[Boedie]

I used to work at Recycled Cycles in Seattle where we saw alot of used road frames pass through. I always had a fascination with Landshark frames- maybe since as a junior my good friend raced a Landshark. One thing I have noticed on alot of older Landsharks was the absence of any reinforcement on a fillet brazed seat tube junction. The other thing I noticed on alot of these bikes was the crack at the ST junction. I never understood why John, who has made thousands of frames, choose this route on so many bikes.

[Rody]

Sean,

Yes, the butt joint of the sleeve is welded using filler wire for the tig bead. Although the pressed insert is thicker, it is of the same diameter as the thinner tube, and fusion welding would pull base material from each side of the butt, leaving the pieces undercut with potential stress risers.

I do weld the pieces together on a rotisserie to make the job easier, allowing me to easily spin the tubing for position as I weld it in opposing sides, 1/8th pass at a time to maintain alignment.

rody

[steve garro]

Sorry if I'm sounding stupid. The thing is these tubes were really expensive for me (college student, now unemployed) and it's a pain in the ass to get them here in Brazil.

I'm not going to finish it like this but the frame is not going straight to the trash, I just want ideas of what to do with it. Even if it's just for hanging on the wall.

You're not.

And here is the money thing - I'm just trying to keep you from throwing good money after bad - the collective seat and chain stays as well as the dropouts are much more money then the front three tubes (I think a Verus RC2ST is <$10.00) so why spend the $$$ for all those parts on a project already gone sour?
Right?

PS, thanks Rody - I forget that post I put up, that's a good one!

- Garro.

[Rody]

Steve,

between the two of us there is sooo much information documented on our blogs that anyone with a little gumption and time should be able to have a solid understanding of the fundamentals of frame construction.

Fpavao,

if cash is the issue, I will send you a seat tube to use for the replacement effort free of charge if you agree to document the process and share it here in this thread so others may learn through your experience.

rody

[steve garro]

Steve,

between the two of us there is sooo much information documented on our blogs that anyone with a little gumption and time should be able to have a solid understanding of the fundamentals of frame construction.

Fpavao,

if cash is the issue, I will send you a seat tube to use for the replacement effort free of charge if you agree to document the process and share it here in this thread so others may learn through your experience.

rody

I agree!

And a very kind offer, my friend.

I need to drop you a call one day, the days fly by, and FYI a pair of Luvs showed up for MS - beautiful work!
- Garro.

[Gattonero]

I hardly remember, on any forum, a thread so full of precious information. And it all comes from well respected guys.
Thumbs up


On a small note, as I'm not a framebuilder, I'm glad to see that some of those informations are consistent with my one of my habits, of using and adjustable reamer according to the frame to prep

[Will Neide]

While it doesn't get any cheaper than having Rody send you a tube, what would be wrong with taking your seat tube sleeve ( 1.25" OD, 0.058 wall 4130), cut a hole where your top tube would go, then cut the sleeve longways into two pieces. Then you could slip the two pieces around your seat tube/top tube and braze it all in place. Shouldn't be too much of a problem and will definitely be stronger than not having a sleeve at all.

[Eric Estlund]

Off the top of my head I forget who built this, but it was a .8/.6 seat tube built without reinforcement. I'm surprised the rider got as much time out of it as he did, but it invariably cracked. He thought it was just a little split, but it was nearly circumferential with only a few mm of tube left.



I'd be tempted to scrap the whole lot as a learning experience. Take Steve'd advise to avoid the "false economy" of finishing this bike. Save the parts that are still good and attach them to a better front end.

[jon_norstog]

Fpavao,

Don't feel bad, I did the same thing one time. And on a pricey tubeset, too. I ripped out and replaced the ST but given the trouble, should have just tossed it. I still have pieces of that frame hanging around my shop.

Needless to say, since then I have always used a sleeve at that joint.

jn

"Thursday"

[Rody]

Wilco said...

what would be wrong with taking your seat tube sleeve ( 1.25" OD, 0.058 wall 4130), cut a hole where your top tube would go, then cut the sleeve longways into two pieces. Then you could slip the two pieces around your seat tube/top tube and braze it all in place

...because then you are reinforcing everything but the weakest link, the point of attachment of the top tube where the seat tube wall has warped. Once cleaned (reamed open) enough to allow passage of the desired 27.2 post, he'll likely be through the thin wall of the seat tube and into the joining material where fatigue failure will eventually occur.

Eric said...

I'd be tempted to scrap the whole lot as a learning experience

I've learned soooo much about frame construction by deconstructing others failures and repairing them...issues that I would not have seen otherwise or will not be subject to now that I am aware of such mistakes. The process of repair, in it's self, teaches more than throwing out the frame and moving on.

Wanna be in the game a long time and stay profitable? Take advantage of mistakes to build a deeper foundation of knowledge and employ it daily.

rody

[Eric Estlund]

I hear you Rody. I think pursuing a "fix" as a learning experience is a great idea. I would caution about becoming emotionally invested in the save though- knowing when to walk away, or when to push forward for the experience and NOT for a ridable end project, are both worth learning.

[jon_norstog]

Off the top of my head I forget who built this, but it was a .8/.6 seat tube built without reinforcement. I'm surprised the rider got as much time out of it as he did, but it invariably cracked. He thought it was just a little split, but it was nearly circumferential with only a few mm of tube left.



I'd be tempted to scrap the whole lot as a learning experience. Take Steve'd advise to avoid the "false economy" of finishing this bike. Save the parts that are still good and attach them to a better front end.

Eric,

That looks just about like the one I botched, years ago, right down to the ridiculous, born-to-fail seat tube extension and collar. Mine actually accordian-folded from me taking big hits on the bike.

jn


"Thursday"

[Will Neide]

Wilco said...

...because then you are reinforcing everything but the weakest link, the point of attachment of the top tube where the seat tube wall has warped. Once cleaned (reamed open) enough to allow passage of the desired 27.2 post, he'll likely be through the thin wall of the seat tube and into the joining material where fatigue failure will eventually occur.


rody

In the interest of curiosity. If he cut the sleeve as I suggested, and filed a good portion of his current fillet away, then inserted his sleeve the way I mentioned, he could/would still be laying a fillet around the top tube over the edge of the sleeve. I don't see that as being un-reinforced. With a 0.058 " wall (1.47 mm) I'm also having a hard time imagining that failing even if he completely removed all the parent metal, which I'm pretty sure wouldn't happen. He fit a 26.8 seatpost in a .6 walled tube. If he reams to 27.2, the worst case is that he'll have a section of wall with parent metal at .2, then with the split sleeve installed he would still have 1.47mm of 4130.

I am by no means saying he should be doing this as a habit. He definitely should have started with a sleeve. If this is for himself or a super close buddy who wants something to bang around, then I think it would be worth the hassle to go this route.

Either way, the answer to the OP's title is "Yes." He needs a reamer.

[steve garro]

In the interest of curiosity. If he cut the sleeve as I suggested, and filed a good portion of his current fillet away, then inserted his sleeve the way I mentioned, he could/would still be laying a fillet around the top tube over the edge of the sleeve. I don't see that as being un-reinforced. With a 0.058 " wall (1.47 mm) I'm also having a hard time imagining that failing even if he completely removed all the parent metal, which I'm pretty sure wouldn't happen. He fit a 26.8 seatpost in a .6 walled tube. If he reams to 27.2, the worst case is that he'll have a section of wall with parent metal at .2, then with the split sleeve installed he would still have 1.47mm of 4130.

I am by no means saying he should be doing this as a habit. He definitely should have started with a sleeve. If this is for himself or a super close buddy who wants something to bang around, then I think it would be worth the hassle to go this route.

Either way, the answer to the OP's title is "Yes." He needs a reamer.

Why would anyone want to claim or put their name to such a thing?
That's ghetto!
You should turn out things you are proud of - one day they shall be your legacy.

- Garro.

[Rody]

Will,

I appreciate your enthusiasm.

Remeber when I said to learn from other's mistakes? I've repaired at least two other builders frames that have had your proposed method used as a "repair" for the first failure.

This method does not provide the structural base necessary for long term durability.

The original poster does not need a reamer; he needs to build it right from the start, or alternately, repair it correctly. No one benefits from half assed work arounds.

rody

[Will Neide]

Why would anyone want to claim or put their name to such a thing?
That's ghetto!
You should turn out things you are proud of - one day they shall be your legacy.

- Garro.

Sure, but without knowing anything about the OP other than he's in Brazil and is strapped for cash, maybe he needs a ghetto fix. Fortunately, it sounds like Rody is hooking him with a tube. I sure as hell wouldn't build one like that for any customer.

Will,

I appreciate your enthusiasm.

Remeber when I said to learn from other's mistakes? I've repaired at least two other builders frames that have had your proposed method used as a "repair" for the first failure.

This method does not provide the structural base necessary for long term durability.

The original poster does not need a reamer; he needs to build it right from the start, or alternately, repair it correctly. No one benefits from half assed work arounds.

rody

No problem. Just spit balling ideas. I guess I shouldn't be surprised that others have already tried this, but I kind of am.

[EnginCycles]

I have read all the replies and I still stand behind "walk away". There is no more to learn here except the wrong process and tube was used. It is a front end. Cheap even if the best of tubes. There is nothing cheap about making bicycles. If you are cheap than buy an "insert Maxway made frame here" because it will be better. Sorry to be harsh but it is the truth.

Plus if I was going to "repair" the issue I would go the route of making it a 25.4mm seat post size and make the re-enforcement on the I.D. of the seat tube.