Tubulars vs Clinchers: Let the Games Begin

[twowheels]

I do agree with you.

But I hope you understand my frustration with the fact that if a tire gets rolled, then you are automatically an idiot for not being able to glue a tire. Or if you had it professionally done, then you need a new shop, etc. Its never the tires fault.

Despite a long history of tubulars coming off rims, the only reason it ever happens is because the rider is stupid. Its never anything else—ever. The notion that it may not be a perfect system is blasphemy.

And it seems like most folks here admit that they are not perfect. But many wont.

Not only that, but it opens the door for every old stodgy racer to perform a full critique of your cycling creds. It puts you on the defense.

It really gets my goat.

I guess it’s a classic tradition vs technology argument. I come from a different era. Clinchers have always been good during my cycling lifetime.

I rolled my last tubular doing warmups in a parking lot, practicing my turns. I was going about 10 mph. Tires were at 120 psi. I banged up my hip so much that it kept me off the bike for like 3 weeks. So I am bitter. I through some latex tubes in my clinchers and I am never looking back.

I would totally feel fine riding tubulars in a velodrome, in a triathlon or a time trial. Just not in a road race or crit as I feel I hit the corners way too hard for tubulars.

Im not anti-tubular. I just wont use them myself. I puts a twinge of fear in my mind that I dont need.

acotts--

hate to say it but if you rolled a tubular at 10 mph in a parking lot then, well, never mind.....

lets just say it was not caused by a defect in the tire.

[Too Tall]

I do agree with you.

But I hope you understand my frustration with the fact that if a tire gets rolled, then you are automatically an idiot for not being able to glue a tire. Or if you had it professionally done, then you need a new shop, etc. Its never the tires fault.

Despite a long history of tubulars coming off rims, the only reason it ever happens is because the rider is stupid. Its never anything else—ever. The notion that it may not be a perfect system is blasphemy.

And it seems like most folks here admit that they are not perfect. But many wont.

Not only that, but it opens the door for every old stodgy racer to perform a full critique of your cycling creds. It puts you on the defense.

It really gets my goat.

I guess it’s a classic tradition vs technology argument. I come from a different era. Clinchers have always been good during my cycling lifetime.

I rolled my last tubular doing warmups in a parking lot, practicing my turns. I was going about 10 mph. Tires were at 120 psi. I banged up my hip so much that it kept me off the bike for like 3 weeks. So I am bitter. I through some latex tubes in my clinchers and I am never looking back.

I would totally feel fine riding tubulars in a velodrome, in a triathlon or a time trial. Just not in a road race or crit as I feel I hit the corners way too hard for tubulars.

Im not anti-tubular. I just wont use them myself. I puts a twinge of fear in my mind that I dont need.

As Phil would say "he's lost his bottle and does not know where it's gone". Sorry mate, if you lived near me I'd glue your wheels for you and than you could rest your mind when diving into corners. My pact to you. Anytime brother.

[acotts]

As Phil would say "he's lost his bottle and does not know where it's gone". Sorry mate, if you lived near me I'd glue your wheels for you and than you could rest your mind when diving into corners. My pact to you. Anytime brother.

Thanks for the kind offer. I live like 10 miles from you in Arlington. All winter we pass each other every sunday when I ride with my club. If I ever got on the track, I might take you up on that offer. :)

And also, I believe that I followed you advice by putting two good coats on both the tires and the rim. From wall to wall. Let it dry, and then put a fresh coat on right before I mounted the tire. 5 coats in all on nice clean rims.

Sounds pretty easy to me.

And FTR, I had a couple thousand miles on those wheels. I have done crits, centuries, double centuries, training rides, etc on those wheels. I dove into any number of corners. Those tires, my third set on those wheels, on that same glue job had gone through at least three crits.

It just happened. Bam. Waming up.

Say what you will Twowheels. My spill was just the same as the thousands of tire rolls that came before me. The tube remained in tact, its just that the cotton casing was stuck to the rim. In fact, it is still holding a good bit of pressure.

Here are some pics of the tire. I dont know why I kept it. I tossed the rims. But you would see the rest of the tire on it.

They are Conte gatorskins

[morenog]

Swoop

So then reading into your posts would you keep away from carbon clinchers? ie Hyperon's? If someone wanted lightweight low profile rims with campy hubs (and low spoke count) then there are not too many options...its carbon or its aluminium.

G

[Too Tall]

"Say what you will Twowheels. My spill was just the same as the thousands of tire rolls that came before me. The tube remained in tact, its just that the cotton casing was stuck to the rim. In fact, it is still holding a good bit of pressure. "

Acotts, hey now let's not exaggerate saying "thousands..." ;) This is easy. The conti's basetape glue was either defective or more likely the method and glue combo you used to prep. the basetape were not compatible. Short answer...the glues solvent eff'd the basetapes laytex bond to the tubular casing. How to avoid that? Experience.

Best method to prevent that? When preparing basetape you need to be very sparing with glue. The glue has solvent and too much glue will carry ALOT of solvent which will eff' the basetape bond to the tyre carcass.

Some tyres are more sensitive than others. FWIIW I've purchased apparently new conti. tubulars where the basetape was ready to fall off before any prep. They have had some issues. The new(er) Vittoria CX line has been pretty darn bombproof.

That's my take on this. Hey, let's quit waving at each other and do some riding :)

[jellysidedown]

I stopped using Conti tires because of base tape issues. Conti glue also seemed to cause problems with other brands of tires. Others have noted similar problems with Fastack though I've used tons of it with many brands of tires and never had an issue. It's NFG if you want to mount a spare in the field though, because it does not retain any tack. It's heat resistance works against it there because even if you ride the brakes for a while it won't soften up like natural rubbers or faux natural rubber glues.

When playing with solvents and bonding agents, compatibility is a big deal. However, I've not seen any manufacturers of tires nor glue be so forthcoming with what the solvents and/or binders are in their products. Are all base tapes adhered in the same way (latex)?

"Latex" can mean a lot of things. Natural rubbers have very low shear strength at elevated temperatures, and are not resistant to many solvents. We are being left with trial and error and experience rather than solid technical guidance from the adhesive and tire manufacturers. What specific product do those of you who dissect and repair tubulars use to reattach the base tape?

[acotts]

We are being left with trial and error and experience rather than solid technical guidance from the adhesive and tire manufacturers. What specific product do those of you who dissect and repair tubulars use to reattach the base tape?

So this gets to the crux of what I am saying.

So here we are with a hundred year old technology still facing the issues they did a hundred years ago...tires falling off the wheel. Folks are still rolling tires in the Tour.

Trial and error is not good enough for me.

Josh, sounds like you have a tire/glue/method combo that works for you. Thats great. But I am not willing to take a few crashes to find my combo, not when there are other viable options.

Conte Gatorskins is a pretty generic tire, and I used Matic glue, another very generic product, and I used a very generic gluing method. This stuff shouldn't be happening. Even if i am as stupid and green as Twowheels and all the old men who were watching me warm up insinuate, it should still work.

Half the time you hear that gluing and prepping tubular wheels is easy. And its worth it becuase the ride is magical. Then if something bad happens, it turns out to actually be really complicated - a fine art. Turns out certain glues can eat certain casings. or certain glue tire combos are less resistant to heat build up...etc.

But as always, it simply the riders fault for being stupid. Dont blame the tires.

Im done now. Sorry for beating this horse to death. I will never bring up this issue on the main board. I promise.

-Andrew "Loves his DTS 1.2 clinchers" Cotter

[twowheels]

acotts.

.

not meaning to disparage you . it looks from the low res pictures like, as tt says, the glue dissolved the bond between the basetape and the casing, or that water worked its way into the bond and dissolved it, or ?

how old was the glue job? its always a good idea to check the bond periodically by letting the air out and pulling on the tire. old glue jobs can fail because the glue bond becomes more brittle over time and can let go without much warning.

it happens all too often on cx wheels, especially those used in wet, sloppy, muddy conditions.

[acotts]

acotts.

.

not meaning to disparage you . it looks from the low res pictures like, as tt says, the glue dissolved the bond between the basetape and the casing, or that water worked its way into the bond and dissolved it, or ?

how old was the glue job? its always a good idea to check the bond periodically by letting the air out and pulling on the tire. old glue jobs can fail because the glue bond becomes more brittle over time and can let go without much warning.

it happens all too often on cx wheels, especially those used in wet, sloppy, muddy conditions.

It was may/june so I would say it was like 5-6 months old. I reglued every season. It was my third on those wheels.

[twowheels]

It was may/june so I would say it was like 5-6 months old. I reglued every season. It was my third on those wheels.

casing is very dark. shouldn't be that way without something awry. is that contamination?

[Too Tall]

casing is very dark. shouldn't be that way without something awry. is that contamination?

Let's not rehash this. Without saying not nice things about conti. I've seen this and those tyres were a problem waiting to happen out of the box. If you can yank the basetape off before during or after glue pls. spell my name correctly on your life insurance policy.

Ascotts I totally agree there should be way better info. avail. from the mfg.s on this but there ain't that's why there exists fussy old fahats like me and SteveP. It's all we got man don't make me work too hard for it ;)

We *might want to start a fact based wiki on proven glue/rim/tyre combos that work? Oh hey hold on (wink wink) this IS a wikki....I'l start.

8/1/2009
Vittoria CX 23 / Edge Composites 2.68 / Mastik One
Perfect!

8/1/2009
Monti Kerin 23 / Arc en sel / Soyo Glue
Perfect, BA tight and right! Soyo flashes rapidly, work fast.

8/1/2009
Conti Competition 23 / Russian Disk (titanium rim surface) / Mastic One
Good enough. Narrow gluing surface, need to build the glue bed and live with a little slop in order to have good edge contact.

[acotts]

dunno. Probably shitty photography.

But i hope this illustrates my point that this is not a perfect system. It has its flaws: old glue, dry glue, inompatable glue, contamination, incompatable solvents and bonding agents, and bad casings on $70 tires, mud and rain....whew.

It seems like there is a lot more going on than just stupid guys who cant paint on glue.

Seems like there are all sorts of reasons that a tire can fall off the wheel. Its a good thing I am not a former Cat 1 editor for Velonews. Then again, PROs and CAT 1s dont roll tires right...or do they?



-Beloki crash on '03 where Lance shows his superhero CX skills.

TT- Seriously, if I ever get tubulars again, we are going for a ride, drinking some beer, and glueing them on together. I know I am being contrarian in this thread. In real life i am an affable, easy goin dude.

[Too Tall]

dunno. Probably shitty photography.

But i hope this illustrates my point that this is not a perfect system. It has its flaws: old glue, dry glue, inompatable glue, contamination, incompatable solvents and bonding agents, and bad casings on $70 tires, mud and rain....whew.

It seems like there is a lot more going on than just stupid guys who cant paint on glue.

Seems like there are all sorts of reasons that a tire can fall off the wheel. Its a good thing I am not a former Cat 1 editor for Velonews. Then again, PROs and CAT 1s dont roll tires right...or do they?



-Beloki crash on '03 where Lance shows his superhero CX skills.

TT- Seriously, if I ever get tubulars again, we are going for a ride, drinking some beer, and glueing them on together. I know I am being contrarian in this thread. In real life i am an affable, easy goin dude.

You ain't contrarian, you were made to look the fool infront of peers and you are a competent guy...I'd be p'd too.

[acotts]

You ain't contrarian, you were made to look the fool infront of peers and you are a competent guy...I'd be p'd too.

no I wasn't. :)

[ron l edmiston]

glued on campy carbon rims ------ "don't get no better" - what a ride....

ronnie :)

[dang]

So this gets to the crux of what I am saying.

So here we are with a hundred year old technology still facing the issues they did a hundred years ago...tires falling off the wheel. Folks are still rolling tires in the Tour.

Trial and error is not good enough for me.

Josh, sounds like you have a tire/glue/method combo that works for you. Thats great. But I am not willing to take a few crashes to find my combo, not when there are other viable options.

Conte Gatorskins is a pretty generic tire, and I used Matic glue, another very generic product, and I used a very generic gluing method. This stuff shouldn't be happening. Even if i am as stupid and green as Twowheels and all the old men who were watching me warm up insinuate, it should still work.

Half the time you hear that gluing and prepping tubular wheels is easy. And its worth it becuase the ride is magical. Then if something bad happens, it turns out to actually be really complicated - a fine art. Turns out certain glues can eat certain casings. or certain glue tire combos are less resistant to heat build up...etc.

But as always, it simply the riders fault for being stupid. Dont blame the tires.

Im done now. Sorry for beating this horse to death. I will never bring up this issue on the main board. I promise.

-Andrew "Loves his DTS 1.2 clinchers" Cotter

It really could be the glue. Last year, I rolled a tire at DCCX -- the first time I've rolled a tire in my life. Some time later, I got an e-mail from World Class Cycles about a recall of a batch of Conti rim cement. I checked the number on the bottom of the can and found a match. Back to Mastik.

[acotts]

It really could be the glue. Last year, I rolled a tire at DCCX -- the first time I've rolled a tire in my life. Some time later, I got an e-mail from World Class Cycles about a recall of a batch of Conti rim cement. I checked the number on the bottom of the can and found a match. Back to Mastik.

How can they still be effin up glue after 100 years? Folks have been riding tubularis since the late 1800's. And still they haven't found the perfect glue.

Doesn't make sense to me.

P.S. Someone rolled their tubie at cross camp this weekend. The first thing he said was, "I guess I didn't glue them right."

[Too Tall]

How can they still be effin up glue after 100 years? Folks have been riding tubularis since the late 1800's. And still they haven't found the perfect glue.

Doesn't make sense to me.

P.S. Someone rolled their tubie at cross camp this weekend. The first thing he said was, "I guess I didn't glue them right."

Folks don't mind Ascotts he's got the disorder that makes him heap hate on tubulars. It's like torrettes only stickier ;)

Neener neener I raced the tandem last weekend...on tubulars. Boo Yah. Gee that felt a little too good.