Too many great builders - how do you pick?

[e-RICHIE]

E-Richie (and Co),

I've heard you say this before, and I agree with it.

That being said, say I found a 'new' builder whose personality jived with me. They seemed to know what they were doing, and their work spoke to me.

How would you objectively judge someone who's new to the scene?

Thanks for the info.

i'd wait until they weren't new atmo.
these are vehicles, not macrame.
i say that with respect and love.

[Jonathan]

So why limit yourself?

-Ray

I've been down the road with a bunch of guys and knowing what I know now that is what I'd do. why waste the time?

I love my Sachs, it feels lighter than air. I have two Hampstens and they are both amazing. Nobody builds a frame nicer than Dave kirk, and it was amazing he was a week or two early in delivery considering getting a frame painted is partly out of his control. Nobody is more professional than Zank.

There is a steel spectrum across town that may be the most beautiful frame I've ever seen. if I had a relatationship with Tom maybe I'd never look at another.

[ridethecliche]

i'd wait until they weren't new atmo.
these are vehicles, not macrame.
i say that with respect and love.

I agree, but playing devil's advocate...

So if that was the way everyone went around doing things, how would they get their start?

First working for a bigger parent company and then branching off and using their history to market themselves?

[soBRIquet]

Right now I'm personally apoplectic about various tube amp builders.

6. Cogitate.

these are vehicles, not macrame.

Look. You have two choices:

1) Attempt to read the posts from this over-educated bunch without a goddamn dictionary - hoping to know what the hell they said.

or

2) Go to Darren's house and test ride one of each from the top builders and wash it down with a beer afterward.

Send me $50 bucks and I'll give you Darren's home address.
The choice is yours.

[e-RICHIE]

I agree, but playing devil's advocate...

So if that was the way everyone went around doing things, how would they get their start?

First working for a bigger parent company and then branching off and using their history to market themselves?

since there's no accredited house of learning nor apprenticeships as such,
well - yeah, ya have to learn somewhere before you operate. don't make
me state the obvious because it tends to alienate, and that's never the
intention atmo. how do you choose others with whom you spend money?
your physician, accountant, home appliance contractors, etc? they didn't
just "start working" without developing a skill set, a routine, some level(s)
of expertise...

[soBRIquet]

since there's no accredited house of learning nor apprenticeships as such,
well - yeah, ya have to learn somewhere before you operate. don't make
me state the obvious because it tends to alienate, and that's never the
intention atmo. how do you choose others with whom you spend money?
your physician, accountant, home appliance contractors, etc? they didn't
just "start working" without developing a skill set, a routine, some level(s)
of expertise...

Slightly OT, but going in this direction...

Why aren't there more apprenticeships offered? Impatience? Lack of opportunity? I'm assuming that that's the right way to learn, no?
When these guys get out of apprenticing, are they still "new," or are they established?

I think I've read an answer on this before, but I can't recall it (or maybe it never existed).

[e-RICHIE]

Slightly OT, but going in this direction...

Why aren't there more apprenticeships offered? Impatience? Lack of opportunity? I'm assuming that that's the right way to learn, no?
When these guys get out of apprenticing, are they still "new," or are they established?

I think I've read an answer on this before, but I can't recall it (or maybe it never existed).

there never were any to speak of atmo. the term is misused to the nines.
and the reason we have what we have now is because of the internet, and
the fantasy that comes when looking over the electronic fence and trying
to approriate a career when one has zeal but no training. framebuilding has
always (999999.9 percent, that is) been about folks wanting to do better,
or finer, or with less restrictions, or fewer managers, or simply wanting to
tell the conventional market and industry to get the eff outa' my face. most
cats, at least at the front end, got sick the eff of the routine of the workplace
and left. what they began with was an experience level, some connections,
and a fresh attitude - and were now their own boss. but most importantly,
they all had been through the work stations, and the repetitive drills, and all
things in between. they didn't learn the basics in year one of their eponymous
(i LOVE that word) firm's existence. they didn't start a business with 20 frames
under their belt. shut me up already. and they knew how to make frames, period.
they simply made them for themselves now rather than for the man.

these are different times atmo. industrial frames in the last 20 years have
become so incredibly well designed and made that any need for a trip to
a frame shop is not for the same reason it may have been a generation
or so prior. in the pre-MTB era, it was unthinkable to get a good bicycle
for racing from the rank and file LBS because most of them (the bicycles)
sucked. over the course of 20 or so years, while all of that did a 180, the
number of folks building frames suffered as a result. many simply vaporized
atmo. the newer crop, those from the internet and forum era, have another
calling altogether. most have built and incredibly small number of frames,
either before they went commercial, or since. the business they are in is
a unique model. actually, i don't know what it is. no matter.

some of us do what we can to plant seeds and nurture a few bright lights.
i believe the door is slamming shut on the number of folks that can pull off
the "...handcrafted frame" in this era and still make a career of it. enthusiasm,
blogs, picture pages, and the like can only sustain so much atmo. i often
make analogies to latin; an interesting language with some special needs
that demand a grasp of it. framebuilding is not unlike that. with the fine
(and getting finer) wares being made en masse, the road to a frame shop
will be narrower and narrower as time passes, and only the best and the
brightest will make the cut. these are different times.

[ridethecliche]

Thanks for the reply E-richie. Brilliant post.

[soBRIquet]

Thanks Richie for taking the time to write that. Great insights. Scary, in a way, but I guess it is what it is.
I agree that the internet can only go so far, and consumers are learning to look past the paint jobs and great photos.
While the door may be closing, I'm glad that some will still make it. While I'm guessing I'll always have a factory bike in the garage, I'll always have a need or desire for something hand-built.
Thankfully others feel the same way.

[happycampyer]

there needs to be a wiki just for posts like that

[MBudd]

I'm among the new crop of builders upon whose head e-ritchie just shat, whatever, I've got 1 more bike in the cue for now anyhow.
I'm proud of the dozen frames I've put out this year and mr. ritchie has surely seen me at the races during cross season over the last 5 years testing my own product and refining the design. The first crop of a dozen bikes that I'd built are approaching their 4th birthday, some have had designs revised but only the earliest of them had craftsmanship I feel was subpar, all of the bikes have been thoroughly loved by the people that have been riding them, select customers that i thought were the most appropriate people to test them, myself included.
I've been an engineer, a racer, a craftsman, and at all times a rider and don't feel that getting a quality, thoughtful, high performance, cycle frame necessitates that you get signed up on one of the most established builders wait list. A lot of the young builders out there are really creative, talented, and hungry; I'd be scared too if I saw the new wave rolling in from the position of the old guard. Yes, be wary of the slick presentation that lacks substance but if you find that a younger builder's work resonates with you or if you click with them and what they want to do for you if they are commissioned you could end up sorry if you opted not to because you didn't know anyone else that had one yet. It isn't going to be the guy with nothing to prove that will really put it on the line for you. THINK FOR YOURSELF

[soBRIquet]

THINK FOR YOURSELF

It's just my take, but...

Most folks are on this forum because they can and do think for themselves. Many, like myself, like custom-made bikes, and don't need to ride what Lance rides, because... well.. we aren't twisted by the marketing and simply know better (Lance's bike is great, I'm sure, but it won't fit me).

I think all of us started out our careers at the bottom, and worked our way up. We made little at first, and (hopefully), more later. However, I always had someone looking over my shoulder to make sure that I learned the right way and did things properly. How could I know what I didn't know? If I made a mistake, most times it could be fixed. It doesn't sound like bike building has that catch-all.

During the bull market in stocks, everyone was a genius. During the real estate bull market, there were more "flippers" than at Seaworld. It's different, and it's a craft, but I'd think that bike building, due to the web, has enjoyed/suffered a similar change.

Richie doesn't need my help to help defend him, but as I read it, what he's saying is that when bull markets level out and it's not so easy, only the best will survive. If you're one of them, you'll be here.

[Alliance Bicycles]

Hi all, maybe I can shed some light on this. I am fortunate enough to be working as an apprentice with Carl Strong. Carl offered the apprenticeship to me, so I can’t offer any advice on seeking an education with another builder. I believe the only reason I was extended the offer, was my complete obsession with the bicycle.

Apprenticeships are lacking, because logically it’s all backwards. The apprentice reaps immeasurable amounts of benefits. On the other hand, the teacher only receives new competition.

It would be extremely hard for me to pursue a career in framebuilding if I wasn’t an apprentice. Richard points out the recent influx of custom builders. The market has become extremely competitive and it’s only gaining popularity. Just the amount of “graduates” that UBI pumps out in a year is astounding. I often wonder “are all these people going to become framebuilders?” There are a lot of talented new builders out there. At times, I fear I will not be able to entice customers with my own brand. I also feel the room crowding up and I don’t even sell bikes yet.

My own personal feelings lead me to believe that UBI wouldn’t be enough education for me to follow this path. One day I was mitering a tube set for the second time, when Carl asked, “Do you feel like a pro?” I responded with a laugh and said no. He replied, “now you have twice the experience as a UBI grad.”

All that being said, I don’t think an apprenticeship offers immediate accreditation. I will have to prove myself just like anyone else that is new to the trade. It will be difficult in the beginning to establish myself as a legit offering in the eyes of others. What I hope to accomplish by working with Carl is an overall understanding of this little world we all cherish so much. Being a professional framebuilder is just that, a framebuilder but also a professional. Construction is only one piece of the puzzle, and probably not the most important. Customer service, fit consultation, warranty, and an ability to maintain a business that will insure a customer isn’t investing his/her time and money into an illegitimate hobby are things I find valuable.

I have invested and sacrificed a lot of time, resources, and money to be an apprentice. However, it never appears in a negative light when I look at what I’ve done and where I’m going.

[ridethecliche]

Erik,

Man, you're living the life. Learning from Carl AND enjoying some incredible MTB adventures.

Good luck to you.

[dashDustin]

i got lucky. i knew who i wanted to build my bike...then i learned that he didn't put the dirty work into it...someone else did. so i chose that "someone else."

would still love a bike from builder A, but i want him to fabricate it. and i don't think i have that kind of patience.

both builders evoke a feeling in my loins. that's a good sign.

[Moke]

Picking a builder is tough.Real tough. First thing, Don't ever go to the NAHBBS. After meeting and hanging with the guys, I want them all.

E-Ritchie Long wait if I could trick him into letting me on the list.
Might be dead by the time my name came up.

Sasha White Same deal or get a Speedvagen Hmmmmmmm?

Zank, Kirk, Strong, Lewellen, Mario, Walker, Eriksen, Nobellette, Gordon, Strawberry, yea buddy I want one of each of theirs

Kellogg, Hampsten, Moots, Kish, Rocky Lobster, Soulcraft, Sycip,Hunter, Dean yep got em. Probably need more.

Never met him, really want to... Steve Garro. Need one of his pretty bad.

How many freeking bikes can a guy have anyhow? Too many pretty horses, not enough time and a very understanding wife. So that is how you pick out a builder. Very carefully and often. You should see my Chris King bill. Ouch.

[SteveP]

Send me $50 bucks and I'll give you Darren's home address.
The choice is yours.

forum fine for soliciting
$100.

my take on this is the welding/brazing is the least important part of the build.
seriously, that is not hard. i have done it and i taught myself. it just takes a little effort.
the tough thing that requires experience is making the bike to be fit the riders needs and work well for them... balance and fit.
experience counts in this.

no doubt, there are new builders who can build and some have the background to connect all the dots and make a bike that will ride the nuts. but everyone cannot do this.

kudos to the young builders getting into the game. i'm all for it.. but, let there be no doubt. this is a tough way to make a living if thats the goal.

[Too Tall]

Warning. This thread is about to go Wiki!!! Erik thanks for your honest and sincere comments, folks like yourself are why we are here.

I can only add a small amt. to what's already been said without repeating. My own experience with custom bicycles extends to 1969'ish when I contracted for a custom Hetchins. The bike arrived and from day one was a pile of garbage apparently the maker was in decline or absent at the time....lesson learned BUYER BEWARE! That bike eventually broke twice!!!

That's the point here. You must be well informed beyond a few pictures and words. As Rich implies this is vehicle not something that gets hung on the wall....your freakin' life depends on it working perfectly.

Erik will have a leg up on many comers because Carl will tell him what materials are best and compatible, who's forgings are NOT breaking under heavy use...for instance. Makers with a long game have this ability because of time, customer feedback and so much more.

I'd reckon this sort of insight is elemental for builders to deliver a consistently reliable product. NOTE PLEASE there are pages and pages of lovely handmade bicycles you can peruse to your hearts content. Which of these bicycles was crafted with enduring qualities not just a pretty face? Hard to tell isn't it?

Beauty is skin deep contrary to what you were told.

[GrantM]

I will have to prove myself just like anyone else that is new to the trade. It will be difficult in the beginning to establish myself as a legit offering in the eyes of others. What I hope to accomplish by working with Carl is an overall understanding of this little world we all cherish so much. Being a professional framebuilder is just that, a framebuilder but also a professional. Construction is only one piece of the puzzle, and probably not the most important. Customer service, fit consultation, warranty, and an ability to maintain a business that will insure a customer isn’t investing his/her time and money into an illegitimate hobby are things I find valuable.

sounds to me like you're on your way.
keep at it, you're off to a great start!

-g

[Roman]

I'm among the new crop of builders upon whose head e-ritchie just shat, whatever, I've got 1 more bike in the cue for now anyhow.
I'm proud of the dozen frames I've put out this year and mr. ritchie has surely seen me at the races during cross season over the last 5 years testing my own product and refining the design. The first crop of a dozen bikes that I'd built are approaching their 4th birthday, some have had designs revised but only the earliest of them had craftsmanship I feel was subpar, all of the bikes have been thoroughly loved by the people that have been riding them, select customers that i thought were the most appropriate people to test them, myself included.
I've been an engineer, a racer, a craftsman, and at all times a rider and don't feel that getting a quality, thoughtful, high performance, cycle frame necessitates that you get signed up on one of the most established builders wait list. A lot of the young builders out there are really creative, talented, and hungry; I'd be scared too if I saw the new wave rolling in from the position of the old guard. Yes, be wary of the slick presentation that lacks substance but if you find that a younger builder's work resonates with you or if you click with them and what they want to do for you if they are commissioned you could end up sorry if you opted not to because you didn't know anyone else that had one yet. It isn't going to be the guy with nothing to prove that will really put it on the line for you. THINK FOR YOURSELF

Case Study for the OP in this thread:

"Cool! What is brand name of these frames that I think I should be warning my friends about as a result of this gracious post? Oops: Just clicked on the link- Thanks."