Dornbox Bicycles

[Roman]

When a beginning builder is developing a growing list of orders to fill, is that the time to experiment, and to find confidence and interest within a growing and diverse portfolio of completed orders, or does (should) a builder find a singular voice at that time, building what they know how to build, building their reputation not from diversity, but for singular quality in repetition?

Would you rather build through a variety of styles and fabrication methods or stick to one thing, repeated again and again with precision?

I don't necessarily subscribe to one view or the other, but I guess the question begs what method of building and what style resonates with you, enough to keep you at the bench when others don't or can't do it anymore? If you take orders and don't fill them, or if the cult of personality is hype but no real fulfillment, those seem like hurdles that, if not surmounted, lead to diminishing returns. What keeps a builder building?

[e-RICHIE]

Seriously... how'd you know I cracked my french press a couple weeks ago? The good news, it was replaced with a espresso maker and I still have all of my tooling! Seriously for serious though, do you honestly believe that having a handful of your bikes at a race for people to see, admire, and just get exposed to your name doesn't do anything? Everything I know about business, which granted is only one semester (but I did have my own design firm before this), and my intuition says counter. Exposure at cross races didn't get you any traction? (5¢ more deposited)-Chris

i have been sponsoring teams since 1982, and you are asking me this question in 2010?
it took generations of consistent effort for it to 1) look so seamless, and 2) work atmo.

[Dornbox]

When a beginning builder is developing a growing list of orders to fill, is that the time to experiment, and to find confidence and interest within a growing and diverse portfolio of completed orders, or does (should) a builder find a singular voice at that time, building what they know how to build, building their reputation not from diversity, but for singular quality in repetition?

Would you rather build through a variety of styles and fabrication methods or stick to one thing, repeated again and again with precision?

I don't necessarily subscribe to one view or the other, but I guess the question begs what method of building and what style resonates with you, enough to keep you at the bench when others don't or can't do it anymore? If you take orders and don't fill them, or if the cult of personality is hype but no real fulfillment, those seem like hurdles that, if not surmounted, lead to diminishing returns. What keeps a builder building?

For me it's both. I like the process of refining and finding my own voice within a specific range... but at the same time having the ability and option to step out keeps things fresh and growing. I also strongly believe in building what I ride. Until recently that's been 29ers and road bikes but CX has been a growing interest for a couple years. Especially since the UCI laxed the rules on disc brakes!-Chris

[Dornbox]

i have been sponsoring teams since 1982, and you are asking me this question in 2010?
it took generations of consistent effort for it to 1) look so seamless, and 2) work atmo.

I asked only because it sounded like you implied otherwise but it was more of a rhetorical question. While I'm new to the handmade scene, I was pretty sure that back in the day you worked really hard at promoting yourself to the CX scene. So it sounded odd to me that you'd deter someone from following a similar path. Unless I'm missing something which is often the case?-Chris

[Dornbox]

i have been sponsoring teams since 1982, and you are asking me this question in 2010?
it took generations of consistent effort for it to 1) look so seamless, and 2) work atmo.

And I really did crack my french press two weeks ago and replaced it with a fine espresso maker!-Chris

[Craig Ryan]

Thanks for the link! My soak tank is 3/4" PVC with no liner. It's a bit like making an acrylic fish tank in that the glue is a solvent. I'm using a Chemclean product ChemClean Metal Cleaners
Early results look promising if you want squeaky clean tubes on the inside.

... Nice shop by the way! Did you glass your own soak tank and where do you get the chems from? Thanks! -Chris!

[Dornbox]

Especially since the UCI laxed the rules on disc brakes!-Chris

As a designer/artist/rider/ and a gear wh*&e, these things matter. Shallow as it may be.

[e-RICHIE]

I asked only because it sounded like you implied otherwise but it was more of a rhetorical question. While I'm new to the handmade scene, I was pretty sure that back in the day you worked really hard at promoting yourself to the CX scene. So it sounded odd to me that you'd deter someone from following a similar path. Unless I'm missing something which is often the case?-Chris

the 'cross thing that i do only stared in the mid 90s and no one knew it until 1998.
the road thing started in 1982.
the point i was hoping to make was that if you are expecting something in a year from a dollar you spend next month, i wish you luck.
and i mean that sincerely.
this is an incredibly hard way to make a living wage.
and, as i have said often, i would never start (over) in any era except the one i was born into.
you, chris, are not competing with me, or zanc, or tony, or marty.
it's the trek world we all are part of that will (or could) eat you alive.
your hope for commercial success is to have a brand that folks will gravitate to in spite of all the success a trek (or similar) has in the larger community.
i'm free with opinions and advice, and i have 20/20 hindsight too.
and remember, this is all chat, not a challenge atmo.

[Dornbox]

Thanks for the link! My soak tank is 3/4" PVC with no liner. It's a bit like making an acrylic fish tank in that the glue is a solvent. I'm using a Chemclean product ChemClean Metal Cleaners
Early results look promising if you want squeaky clean tubes on the inside.

So your tank is assembled from panels of 3/4" PVC that are butted and glued together? Thanks!-Chris

[Dornbox]

the 'cross thing that i do only stared in the mid 90s and no one knew it until 1998.
the road thing started in 1982.
the point i was hoping to make was that if you are expecting something in a year from a dollar you spend next month, i wish you luck.
and i mean that sincerely.
this is an incredibly hard way to make a living wage.
and, as i have said often, i would never start (over) in any era except the one i was born into.
you, chris, are not competing with me, or zanc, or tony, or marty.
it's the trek world we all are part of that will (or could) eat you alive.
your hope for commercial success is to have a brand that folks will gravitate to in spite of all the success a trek (or similar) has in the larger community.
i'm free with opinions and advice, and i have 20/20 hindsight too.
and remember, this is all chat, not a challenge atmo.

I keep telling my wife, "you know that it's going to take a long time to get this going and even when it does, it's for the lifestyle not the money". She smiles and agrees, she's a saint. As for the competition thing with Taiwan manufacturing, I see the carbon trend as a blessing more than a threat. With the dissolving of LeMond there are fewer large scale choices for great metal bikes which in turn should bring more people to the handcrafted scene. On the other hand, I also know what it's like to be addicted to what the industry is shoveling. And this is in no way meant as a dis on Carbon, I love the stuff. Your opinions and hindsights are highly appreciated! Some lessons need to be learned through personal experience and some are better left learned through the wisdom and experience of others. Also, I like the chat, I was afraid you mistook something I said -Chris

[EnginCycles]

Chris,
I feel compelled to make a comment and I will apologize in advance if it sounds harsh.

You have lots of negativity towards the "large" companies but yet you have a Ritchey this, Shimano that,,SRAM, etc, etc large bicycle company allowing you to make a BICYCLE. Your product is useless without the industry surviving from these "large" companies. There are some stellar products being produced in Taiwan and China out of ferrous and non ferrous metals and to think that yours is superior just because you made it is very silly. Jamis still makes complete steel bikes and they are all very good buys. Having negative feelings about bikes out of a box is not a good thing to let in your head because it all comes across as some form of insecurity.

People are giving you good advice and I feel like you are reading it but not listening to it. You have to make more stuff before you know why your product is a viable good and until that moment you need to have the money to sustain a business for a few years of non profit. Without that cushion I feel you are on a downward spiral. Don't take the fun out of the job with such unrealistic pressure on yourself.

-Drew

[Dornbox]

Chris,
I feel compelled to make a comment and I will apologize in advance if it sounds harsh.

You have lots of negativity towards the "large" companies but yet you have a Ritchey this, Shimano that,,SRAM, etc, etc large bicycle company allowing you to make a BICYCLE. Your product is useless without the industry surviving from these "large" companies. There are some stellar products being produced in Taiwan and China out of ferrous and non ferrous metals and to think that yours is superior just because you made it is very silly. Jamis still makes complete steel bikes and they are all very good buys. Having negative feelings about bikes out of a box is not a good thing to let in your head because it all comes across as some form of insecurity.

People are giving you good advice and I feel like you are reading it but not listening to it. You have to make more stuff before you know why your product is a viable good and until that moment you need to have the money to sustain a business for a few years of non profit. Without that cushion I feel you are on a downward spiral. Don't take the fun out of the job with such unrealistic pressure on yourself.

-Drew

Drew thanks for your insightful points. Please don't mistake this passionate ramble as an attack, it's not meant as such but I think (and hope) you've misread my previous banter. First, I'm not sure where I said my metal bikes are better than Chinese metal bikes. I do recall saying they'd fit better...? Secondly, when it comes to my disdain for the industry. What bothers me is not the quality, your right on about that, I love my SRAM!!! it's why everything is made over seas and what that's done to our economy and environment as whole. I've spent years working in the environmental field, written theses on related maters, etc., etc., and yes I know that our trucking system is far worse than a boat from overseas etc. But what I'm getting at is we live a non sustainable lifestyle and the fact that nearly everything we do as american consumers combined with the practices of large american corporations, just exacerbates the problem. And yes, I do use italian steel (which Im sure was smelted in China) and am guilty as everyone else when it comes to this and I'd be more than willing to sit down and have a beer with you offline sometime and talk about it. There's always more to learn and I'd love to hear your thoughts. What bother's me is that the bike industry is creating the perception that everything on your bike is outdated in a year, you need this years model, and honestly carbon fiber mountain bikes! That's what bothers me. Why can't ( insert your american bike company of choice here ) be made in the US ? Why can't they choose a business model that doesn't require them to resale to the same customers every two years to survive? I'm admittedly a little naive or biased as most of my spew on this matter comes from the internet but there it is. With that said, along with my religious beliefs, non of this is my marketing angel. And on some level their (big industry) "outdated" last years model thing is feeding us little fish. I get it. And I'm not an angry guy, the above rattle is usually only reserved for friends who feel the same way.

As for the profit and me making more profit: I'm a newbie framebuilder who's trying to find a voice in the crowd. I'm whispering now because that's what my experience, tooling, and knowledge dictates. for the most part, I think my road frames all sing a similar note that is recognizable regardless of paint. Maybe only I notice it because they're from my hand? I'm not sure. But for now I'm marketing great frames for great times. As as my voice continues to grow and once I have a real number of frames under my belt, I hope that everyone will be able to slowdown, look closely at a frame, admire the details, and recognize it's a DORNBOX, regardless of paint. And I love going out to my shop, making a frame, and seeing the smile it puts on the face of its new owner/rider. That's why I'm building.

Respectfully, Chris

[Dornbox]

I think my road frames all sing a similar note that is recognizable regardless of paint.

So Chris can you seem to be trying to achieve a subtly unique look for your designs regardless of paint. But can you talk about your paint designs a color choices, there seems to be a theme.

[e-RICHIE]

So Chris can you seem to be trying to achieve a subtly unique look for your designs regardless of paint. But can you talk about your paint designs a color choices, there seems to be a theme.

so chris can you seem to be trying to achieve a subtly unique look for your designs regardless of
paint. but can you talk about your paint designs a color choices, there seems to be a theme atmo.

[Dornbox]

so chris can you seem to be trying to achieve a subtly unique look for your designs regardless of
paint. but can you talk about your paint designs a color choices, there seems to be a theme atmo.

Nice question! As a designer, artist, and consumer esthetics matter to me and while the client is the ultimately the impetus I do try to carry a theme. It's really funny though. As I sit here thinking about it, I just realized that there might be a deeper factor regarding my palate choices than even I originally thought. I was going to talk about the classic sports car colors (red, white, black) but I'm not sure if that's correct....

Setting: Kitchen floor, Christmas morning, 1975, little meatball (me) is playing with a water filled toy while my mother and her boyfriend (Jim, more like a father) where doing dishes. My mother looks at me and says "you're getting water on the floor christopher, be carful or I'll take the toy away". At this point, I'm clueless but cool. Jim says , "I thought your mother told you to be carful and not to spill water on the floor", while pointing at yet another fresh puddle. I swear I have nothing to due with it. Finally a third puddle appears on the floor, I'm miffed with no connection to the sink of water, and my mother is pissed. "That's it! Go to your room now" my mother yells. Crying I oblige but not without sharing my disbelief that the water was from me. Several minutes later my parents enter my room to find me sobbing and to their amazement clueless to the presence of the 1975 candy red Schwinn Stingray sitting in the corner.

Classic Dornbach family moment, we're all wise a$$s". With that memory freshly recalled, nearly everything I've owned from my first blanket, wagon, pedal car, and bike has always been red and often with white or black detail. Funny when I really think about it. But there is a theme for most of my schemes. I really like the primary and what I would call "fast colors". I like to keep the visual weight low and forward. I also try to under accentuate the petite parts making them appear... delicate or even finer. I also try to keep everything feeling as though it's charging forward. If you've ever heard the saying "that thing looks like it flying even though it's standing still", that's what I try to achieve... preferably in red, white, black , and occasionally in Pink, Blue, and Green. Like I said though ultimately I want the client to be happy. I do have a couple solid color bikes in the works too (and one completed) but I prefer some accent besides just the decals. There are a few little things, underlying stories, etc. that I have that will either disappear, never to be known, or they'll eventually become a story on my website. I like deeper motivations and reasoning rather than doing something because it looks or sounds cool. That's a left over from my Architecture days.

Thanks for the positive question!-chris

[davids]

How would you answer the criticism that someone who has only designed and built ten frames should not be offering them for sale on the open market?

[Jonathan]

Chris, what bike do you want to build right now? Not what's next on the list, but the one you're really wanting to build? Talk about that one please.

Jonathan

[Dornbox]

How would you answer the criticism that someone who has only designed and built ten frames should not be offering them for sale on the open market?

I guess I'd have to first ask on what basis are they making their assumption. Without full knowledge of the builder past experiences, that could be like telling brain surgeon he couldn't remove a wart. If the builder had prior knowledge and experience in related fields (welding, brazing, fabricating, etc) and the argument was based solely on the ability to properly join tubes together then the critic would be... stating their own opinion based on something other than fact atmo. I feel as long as everyone is up front and on the table, it's between the client and builder. I felt the same thing as an Architect/Designer going out on my own with relatively little experience (3 years) ... when in actuality I have experience as a builder and I grew up in a cabinet shop. While one could certainly argue that an experienced architect might have a better grasp on the specific task, a younger designer with building experience and education should certainly be able to properly design a structure as well. I hope that wasn't overly verbose or arrogant sounding...?

Chris, what bike do you want to build right now? Not what's next on the list, but the one you're really wanting to build? Talk about that one please.

Hmmm... I'm really looking forward to building my second frame or road bike. While I'm riding the original prototype and loving it, she lacks finer details. No nice head badge, hidden cables, custom stays, tricks, etc. I still love her... a lot, but other than the faux seat mast and paint, she's becoming less indicative of where I want to go.

I feel like my first 7 frames where simple (which is a quality I want to retain) and the refinement was solely on welding, mitering, brazing, alignment, and process. number 8 is a limbo bike but probably the hottest bike to date (10 may bump it though). 9 and 10, I started doing more fillet work and some custom stay stuff that was more esthetically driven (9 is a little over the top for me but a valid experiment). When I sit down to do my next personal bike, I'm going to try to expand my style palate or bag of tricks. It is tough though, as a new builder, many things are better done with proper tooling and while I have a aptly equipped shop, it's a frill free zone.

In the long run I do see a solid juxtaposition between a classic lug bike and something very modern and simple. I'm not sure if that's the ultimate direction I want to take DORNBOX Bikes in but certainly worth a detour atmo.

Solid Questions....Thanks for your time and interest!-Chris

[Too Tall]

Dorm, you sound like a creative guy. Would you give any consideration to building a portfolio of design abilities WHILE you are ho'ing the road to effbuilder fame and non-fortune? Who knows, your talents could be marketable in commercial design someday.

[Dornbox]

Dorm, you sound like a creative guy. Would you give any consideration to building a portfolio of design abilities WHILE you are ho'ing the road to effbuilder fame and non-fortune? Who knows, your talents could be marketable in commercial design someday.

Bicycle related designs or just a portfolio of designs? I do have just a design/art portfolio, they're basically resume's for architects, but I stopped working on mine about a year ago. I'm no crazy industrial designer... those cats come up with sick stuff and can get the cash. I'm more of an artist/graphic design/architect/psychologist kind of designer. In a perfect world, I probably would be designing and building my own sustainable structures and selling them, that takes a lot of cash though. Building bikes would either be hobby or side business where I was more of a idea/design/prototype guy. In the real world, I love where I am and look forward to what's ahead.

Sorry I digress, If I where to put a bicycle oriented portfolio together, it would have oodles of paint and graphics stuff, some dropouts and other components too, but not very much by way of string bikes or Brompton's.

Here's a little of my past: www.dwellwrightstudios.com

Many thanks!!!-Chris