Following the money trail from Jan 6- 2021

[htwoopup]

On a semi-related topic, two companies who do the voting technology have filed significant defamation and libel lawsuits against Giuliani and Fox News, among others I believe. It will be interesting to see how those develop. A billion dollar judgement against even a large corporation like Fox will get them to sit up and take notice.

I recall some here saying that these types of lawsuits have gained traction in the past. Is there precedence for a major judgement against any of the parties who claim rigged technology?

Yes, they are sometimes successful and more and more so.

There was the Beef Products vs ABC “pink slime” case which was settled out of court for 177 million but could have been a 5 plus billion case.

And there was the Hulk Hogan vs Gawker (the suit was bankrolled by Peter Thiel of PayPal/Palantir etc) was 140 million but essentially put Gawker out of business.

Thiel bankrolled the Hogan lawsuit because he was furious with Gawker for outing him and the attorney in the BPI case is the attorney involved in the Smartmatic suit, I believe.

[vertical_doug]

On a semi-related topic, two companies who do the voting technology have filed significant defamation and libel lawsuits against Giuliani and Fox News, among others I believe. It will be interesting to see how those develop. A billion dollar judgement against even a large corporation like Fox will get them to sit up and take notice.

I recall some here saying that these types of lawsuits have gained traction in the past. Is there precedence for a major judgement against any of the parties who claim rigged technology?

The parents of the children murdered at Sandy Hook have several lawsuits against Alex Jones and Infowars for defamation in both Connecticut and Texas. They have won some judgements and Alex Jones has admitted the hoax claims are untrue.

The important point is the lawsuits by Smart-o-matic and Dominion are relatively narrow targeting specific incidents and reporting. They do not want a broadbased claim against Fox News, but a narrower claim targeting Bartiromo, Dobbs and Pirro. I think the threshold needs to be knowingly reporting a falsehood, and they made need to be doing it with Malice. I think for Fox, the risk is internally, the company believed there was no fraud, but allowed the reporters to run with the falsehoods.

If you saw the Newsmax interview with Mike Lindell, when the reporter interrupted him to read a statement the network accepted the results of the election is Newsmax's attempt not to be sued.

Bartiromo and Dobbs were competent reporters back in the 90's regarding business, I don't recognize the trolls they have become on the news lately.

Pirro was always a mix bag of crap even from her days as DA in Westchester. If anything, she was a halfway competent lawyer, but a first class self promoter.

[Saab2000]

Yes, they are sometimes successful and more and more so.

There was the Beef Products vs ABC “pink slime” case which was settled out of court for 177 million but could have been a 5 plus billion case.

And there was the Hulk Hogan vs Gawker (the suit was bankrolled by Peter Thiel of PayPal/Palantir etc) was 140 million but essentially put Gawker out of business.

Thiel bankrolled the Hogan lawsuit because he was furious with Gawker for outing him and the attorney in the BPI case is the attorney involved in the Smartmatic suit, I believe.

It would be great to see the real liars held accountable. Free speech is a necessity in a free society but at some point it’s yelling “Fire” in a crowded theatre, something that isn’t protected as free speech AFAIK.

[sine]

This is not 1945, this is more like 1923 Beer Hall Putsch.

Have to chime in here.

Germany was decimated by WW1. France invaded Germany (Ruhr) in early 1923. Proud people that allies stomped on and ground into the mud. The victors very much had a hand in the rise of a mass murderer.

[vertical_doug]

Have to chime in here.

Germany was decimated by WW1. France invaded Germany (Ruhr) in early 1923. Proud people that allies stomped on and ground into the mud. The victors very much had a hand in the rise of a mass murderer.

No, the victors did not have a hand in the rise of the mass murderer. Did the post-war reparation contribute to the angst and economic hardship for the German people. Sure. Did Hitler tap into that angst to channel it ? Sure. However, there was another channel for german angst which was towards Soviet Style Communism which the establishment hated. So in a deal with the devil, the establishment thought a deal with the Nazis would allow them to retain power while keeping the communists at bay. Hitler was Hitler. The rest is horrible history.

Fast forward, does a large portion of the US population feel economic and social angst? Sure, it is probably a large majority of Americans. This american angst is being channeled in two directions- nationalism, and more liberal socialist in nature. The conservative establishment in the US (GOP) is willing to do a deal with the nationalist populists like Trump, to retain power, because they do not want to see power go to the liberal socialists, who they call radical leftist, communists. (The same term the German Establishment used by the way). Mitch McConnell thought he could control DJT, which he did for the most part until it almost blew up in his face. (See Kurt Von Schleicher for details)

Am I saying Trump will be a mass murderer? No, but I am saying he shouldn't get a second bite at the apple. The 1923 invasion, and the Beer Hall Putsch are related. The mistake the German's made was giving Hitler a second bite at the apple 7 years later.

Which back to my point, we aren't beating a dead horse here in 1945.

BTW, as for beating a dead horse, chasing and capturing escaped Nazis after the war was a worthwhile endeavour. Just like restoring property stolen
(The people wearing 6MWE t-shirts at the riot, should also scream take warning. There is a reason Proud Boys are a terrorist group in Canada.)

Good thing I ride a bike and post bike lean photos.

[zachateseverything]

On a semi-related topic, two companies who do the voting technology have filed significant defamation and libel lawsuits against Giuliani and Fox News, among others I believe. It will be interesting to see how those develop. A billion dollar judgement against even a large corporation like Fox will get them to sit up and take notice.

I recall some here saying that these types of lawsuits have gained traction in the past. Is there precedence for a major judgement against any of the parties who claim rigged technology?

I don't think there's a major precedence here beyond what constitutes defamation. The problems with defamation suites against public figures usually are that it is hard to prove monetary damages and that per the Sullivan decision, the statement has to be made with "actual malice." The threshold of that standard is that you have be knowingly or recklessly making a false statement about a third party.

In this case the claims being made were absurd enough that either Fox News, Giuliani, and Powell were either knowingly lying or did absolutely zero fact checking before making them public.

[j44ke]

Have to chime in here.

Germany was decimated by WW1. France invaded Germany (Ruhr) in early 1923. Proud people that allies stomped on and ground into the mud. The victors very much had a hand in the rise of a mass murderer.

This is part of the mythology used effectively to facilitate the National Socialists' ascent to power. And part of the argument post-WWII that Germans (and Austrians) were the first victims of Naziism, thereby diminishing individual responsibility. It is at best an over-simplification.

[htwoopup]

I don't think there's a major precedence here beyond what constitutes defamation. The problems with defamation suites against public figures usually are that it is hard to prove monetary damages and that per the Sullivan decision, the statement has to be made with "actual malice." The threshold of that standard is that you have be knowingly or recklessly making a false statement about a third party.

In this case the claims being made were absurd enough that either Fox News, Giuliani, and Powell were either knowingly lying or did absolutely zero fact checking before making them public.

Think there is also an issue if the company was a “public figure” when the defamation occurred so that damages could be severe and also a lower malice proof bar. I gotta believe the machine/software companies may have a very valid standing because did anyone ever hear of Dominion or Smartmatic before all of this (other than people that worked in the arcane voting machine space)? I am not a lawyer but having worked in the media world I believe this is where the defendants are at risk from what I remember of those compliance/governance hr things I had to take.

Also, to Saab’s point above about First Amendment and yelling fire...does it strike anyone else as oxymoronic that the crazy folk can stand at microphone in a public forum and spew her views for 8 minutes openly and widely reported while wearing a mask that says “censored” and claiming her free speech has been taken away? Giuliani just did the same on his radio show when the station put a lawyer warning on it that the views expressed were Giuliani’s and his guests’ personal views and not those of the station or the advertisers. I mean if they scream my First Amendment rights have been violated how is it that it is broadcast and we hear them? Oh, and First Amendent prevents the government from stopping speech...a company is allowed to and in fact has certain obligations to block certain types of speech particularly broadcast stations (which may not apply to FNC because it is cable not broadcast using the public airwaves but that is open to debate)

On a related note, the fact that they all put out the lawyer statements...Newsmax, Fox, Bartiromo, et alia is not to get out of the legal responsibility because it does not according to previous cases...but it can lessen the financial hit when you lose.

[sine]

No, the victors did not have a hand in the rise of the mass murderer. Did the post-war reparation contribute to the angst and economic hardship for the German people. Sure. Did Hitler tap into that angst to channel it ? Sure. However, there was another channel for german angst which was towards Soviet Style Communism which the establishment hated. So in a deal with the devil, the establishment thought a deal with the Nazis would allow them to retain power while keeping the communists at bay. Hitler was Hitler. The rest is horrible history.

As you noted, many contributed. A second war was predicted by the likes of Keynes who ironically contributed to the Treaty of Versailles. Americans at the table understood but caved. Thankfully, Americans stood strong post WW2 and Europe (and Japan) has been at peace for many years.

I agree that Trump should not get a second chance.

[j44ke]

On a semi-related topic, two companies who do the voting technology have filed significant defamation and libel lawsuits against Giuliani and Fox News, among others I believe. It will be interesting to see how those develop. A billion dollar judgement against even a large corporation like Fox will get them to sit up and take notice.

I recall some here saying that these types of lawsuits have gained traction in the past. Is there precedence for a major judgement against any of the parties who claim rigged technology?

I don't think there's a major precedence here beyond what constitutes defamation. The problems with defamation suites against public figures usually are that it is hard to prove monetary damages and that per the Sullivan decision, the statement has to be made with "actual malice." The threshold of that standard is that you have be knowingly or recklessly making a false statement about a third party.

In this case the claims being made were absurd enough that either Fox News, Giuliani, and Powell were either knowingly lying or did absolutely zero fact checking before making them public.

I checked with my wife and she said (paraphrase) - The Sullivan case imposes greater responsibility on a public official as a plaintiff - meaning that public officials have an increased responsibility to prove malice when they sue someone for liable. In these cases with the voting company, the public officials are the defendants so the Sullivan case does not apply. Therefore the voting machine company would have to prove defendants knowingly reported fraudulent information as fact and that resulted in damages. Malice isn't required.

Back to me: Depends on each state - where the suit is being brought - but there is culpability associated with reproduction of false information. Person T says that the voting machines were crooked to Person F, and Person F then tells everyone else that the voting machines were crooked (with or without actual knowledge of fact) and Person T is shown to have knowingly made false statements, then Person F is equally liable. That's why news editors demand documentation and fact checking on sources. I think that's what Fox and the other defendants will be sweating a bit. You can't hide behind willful ignorance here.

Note that the voting company has requested document preservation from all involved, which is standard in these cases, but you just know there are smoking gun moments, particularly because there was that controversy surrounding the Fox employee who was fired for correctly calling Arizona for Biden. Someone at Fox knew true and false. And if Person T, the originator of the liable, is Trump, I wonder if the company's lawyers will want to depose Trump to get Fox.

The lawyers have also asked social media companies to preserve applicable posts made by the defendants. I suspect this is part of the supporting framework for the monetary judgement calculations. If Bororama (or whatever her name is) said "crooked voting machines" 1,000,000 times, and each time is worth $100 in future revenue loss, then damages are $1billion. Over simplification of the process but again, like the total value of the suit, the request for social media records to be preserved just gets the calculators going at Fox - how many times did we say that? Holy crap! More sweating.

My question: What would the voting company accept as settlement? I personally would want to eviscerate the staff of on-air personalities and their supervising editors. Fire them all. But a huge amount of money might do the same thing. Probably with Giuliani, they'd be happy if he was shot out of a cannon into the East River.

[lumpy]

Oh, btw, there's this. https://www.cnn.com/2021/02/02/polit...ion/index.html


Funny how easy it is to choose facts to support completely arbitrary emotionally based opinions...but oh hey, don't mind me. Guess the kiddies get to go back to the cages after all (that Obama built btw, whom I voted for).

Speaking of choosing facts, did you read the article enough to see that it is about UNACCOMPANIED migrant children? Not a deliberate policy of family separation, with no process to keep track of the parents and children. Once again, there's no "both sides" here.

[suspectdevice]

Everyone is bringing up the beer hall putsch when a more direct analogy would be Comrade Lenin making a deal with Kerensky(a non-bolshevik left leader in Petrograd after the fall of the Romanov’s) to stave off a White Army backed coup in September ’17.

Now, Josh Hawley and Ted Cruz aren’t exactly Lennin and Trotsky, but they are certainly smart enough to know about the Petrograd Soviet.

America in 2021 is much more like Russia in 1917 than Germany in the 30’s- there has been a revolutionary regressive conservatism boiling here for decades and calcificating our class structures and an overclass of untouchable gilded assholes presiding over it.

The regressive forces at play in the united states have all the education needed not to repeat history- but revolutionaries are gonna revolt.
The pandering nationalist populism is what you get when you have such an immoral, unjust society and create barriers to literacy, education and knowledge.

[Saab2000]

Bartiromo and Dobbs were competent reporters back in the 90's regarding business, I don't recognize the trolls they have become on the news lately.

Dobbs just got cancelled.

[vertical_doug]

Since the cancellation appears rushed, I suspect Dobbs was planning some sort of rant and/or guests to double down on the election fraud. Fox News appear to have acted on the fly.

The MyPillow guy is paying OAN to run his 'documentary' on election fraud. Even OAN is airing a disclaimer during the broadcast to say they disagree with the contents. They also do not want to be sued.

Trump has not spoken publicly about specific allegations since leaving office. He no longer has immunity. Funny that.

[Saab2000]

Since the cancellation appears rushed, I suspect Dobbs was planning some sort of rant and/or guests to double down on the election fraud. Fox News appear to have acted on the fly.

The MyPillow guy is paying OAN to run his 'documentary' on election fraud. Even OAN is airing a disclaimer during the broadcast to say they disagree with the contents. They also do not want to be sued.

Trump has not spoken publicly about specific allegations since leaving office. He no longer has immunity. Funny that.

I wish the rest of the looney tunes presenters would either shape up or get shipped out but it won't happen because these people get high ratings which brings in the money. Brings us back to the title of the thread.

[vertical_doug]

I wish the rest of the looney tunes presenters would either shape up or get shipped out but it won't happen because these people get high ratings which brings in the money. Brings us back to the title of the thread.

Believe it or not, I think Lou Dobbs was Fox Business highest rated show. The potential legal threat > potential revenue. You are seeing the same thing on Newsmax, OAN.

[htwoopup]

Just gonna throw this into the mix (while Trump was supposedly not involved due to WH counsel preventing....he is head of the organization whose people were involved)...plus it brings it back to the OP...

https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article...rler-ownership

[Marvinlungwitz]

Sounds like a good idea for a board game.

Or a movie.

[Marvinlungwitz]

resesutating

Resuscitating? Resurrecting?

[classtimesailer]

Sino did a great job. Gave it everything there is to give. Who knew this dead horse had so much milk?