Framebuilder or production line worker

[bencooper]

I don't think you need to have been a shop guy to build a bicycle, but I can't imagine wanting to be a "Custom Bicycle Builder" (designer, customer service, sales, fab, etc) without having done it.

It helps a lot with having a more rounded idea of the bicycle I think - frames are lovely, and one of the areas where it is possible to craft the part from raw materials (you'd never custom-machine a derailleur), but at the bottom of it a frame is just a component of the whole bicycle. I've worked on frame projects (like the Paper Bicycle city bike) where in the final bike the saddle cost more than the frame.

At least in the old days, very few people woke up and said "I'm going to be a framebuilder" - they already had shops, and decided for one or several reasons to start making their own frames. Either to meet a local need, to have more control of the product and pricing, or simply because it's sometimes handy to be able to stick bits of metal together to fit a rack or a brake.

[Eric Estlund]

a bicycle is used on the open road.

Absolutely. If I haven't been as diligent a proponent of "vehicle first" frame building as possible, I missed a mark.

My comments are simply based on how other folks go about making stuff by hand, which is entirely separate from the safety first nature of building a responsible vehicle. My comments were directed specifically at the repetition and pricing end of this discussion.

[e-RICHIE]

Absolutely. If I haven't been as diligent a proponent of "vehicle first" frame building as possible, I missed a mark.

My comments are simply based on how other folks go about making stuff by hand, which is entirely separate from the safety first nature of building a responsible vehicle. My comments were directed specifically at the repetition and pricing end of this discussion.

Fully understood - and thanks.

[Eric Estlund]

It helps a lot with having a more rounded idea of the bicycle I think

Hopefully I'm not clipping this out of context, but for me it's more then just a better understanding- it's an entire business ethos. Without a foundation solving specific customer needs in a "limited" retail environment (limited to what was on the market or what we could cobble for customers), experience fitting humans to bicycles, and without seeing how customer desires (both reasonable and not) had been met and adapted to, I don't know that I would have pursued this.

Building bikes and integrating solutions specifically tailored for a client are what I find interesting. I love the metal work, but it's the whole deal that is really "interesting" to me. I don't know that I would be able to recognize or respond to client needs without the skill set I acquired separate from the metal working skills.

To Richard's point- I sometimes wonder if the questionable stuff we see (from a safe vehicle standpoint) is in part because the frame construction part happens before the other "bike" stuff.

[Dallas Tex]

Accreditation or certification is a well intentioned fantasy. It will never happen.

Folks don't bother to verify if the "builder" they are buying a bike from even has current insurance. There is no way anyone is going to verify that they are a member in good standing of Bike Builder Dude Guild of America.

[e-RICHIE]

To Richard's point- I sometimes wonder if the questionable stuff we see (from a safe vehicle standpoint) is in part because the frame construction part happens before the other "bike" stuff.

It does atmo. You can't blog or tweet about critical thinking, especially when it's not part of your skill set. With all due respect, it's simple to post a pic of your stainless 8" long nameplate as it cools down on the pipe you just spent 20 minutes brazing it to. Or a Solidworks file of some fantasy dropouts you are conceiving, the ones whose real estate is comprised of more space than actual metal. All of this (and more) is a stepchild of the internet era, download an app approach to becoming a ___________ < pick your trade, profession, or area of expertise. The critical thinking is more important than what brand fixture you'll eventually use as a coat rack.

[Eric Estlund]

To bring this back around- the floor manager on a production line wouldn't have much tolerance if you showed up and went to work without all the skills needed for your sub station.

[steve garro]

Hopefully I'm not clipping this out of context, but for me it's more then just a better understanding- it's an entire business ethos. Without a foundation solving specific customer needs in a "limited" retail environment (limited to what was on the market or what we could cobble for customers), experience fitting humans to bicycles, and without seeing how customer desires (both reasonable and not) had been met and adapted to, I don't know that I would have pursued this.

BAM!
Ditto, Mr E.
- Garro.

[bencooper]

The floor manager wouldn't require much critical thinking either - your job would be to join part A to part B, and you'd quickly get very good at it.

Perhaps that's what separates the framebuilder from the production line worker - the framebuilder has to really think about what they're doing and why.

[e-RICHIE]

The floor manager wouldn't require much critical thinking either - your job would be to join part A to part B, and you'd quickly get very good at it.

Perhaps that's what separates the framebuilder from the production line worker - the framebuilder has to really think about what they're doing and why.

I see it differently atmo - the critical thinking is a component that develops with repetition and routine. A framebuilder is (or once was...) someone who left a line to hear his own voice, develop his own brand, or out of disgust for working for the man once the charm of it all leaves. But he leaves with a skill set and a mother lode of tasks performed while he was at the many stations in the production arena. PS I am not trying to be abstract or confrontational about this; it could appear that way in 1s and 0s. It's a good conversation.

[Eric Estlund]

I have only worked on one production line*, but it required critical thinking. Now I have to hit all of those stations as well as front room and back office stuff, and have to do my own QC.

The difference is that I didn't have someone hire me- I had to take my own word that I could do those things.




(*It was building bikes, which was neither an accident nor a coincidence).

[e-RICHIE]

I have only worked on one production line*, but it required critical thinking. Now I have to hit all of those stations as well as front room and back office stuff, and have to do my own QC.

The difference is that I didn't have someone hire me- I had to take my own word that I could do those things.

That is the conventional path into the trade.
The path into the niche is a bit different atmo.

[bencooper]

Okay, maybe I don't mean critical thinking. But on a production line, you don't suddenly decide to use a different tube diameter, or mitre the tube differently, or make a fixture to make a job easier. Repetition definitely makes you think deeply about what you're doing and why, but you don't have the freedom to act on that if you're working for someone else.

[e-RICHIE]

Okay, maybe I don't mean critical thinking. But on a production line, you don't suddenly decide to use a different tube diameter, or mitre the tube differently, or make a fixture to make a job easier. Repetition definitely makes you think deeply about what you're doing and why, but you don't have the freedom to act on that if you're working for someone else.

That's my point. When you do leave, assuming you have the calling, you leave with a chest full of tools, and would presumably not need to ask others what PSI the acetylene runs at, or what kind of brass to buy, or how to measure setback. You absorb through routine and exercise, just as you do when you're in a room at school for ?? years. When you leave, IF you leave, you have all this AND the freedom mentioned.

[e-RICHIE]

Asshat me for adding this, but the trade, this trade, needs something like this, The Chicago School of Violin Making, for all the cats who want to be part of its present and future. I happen to be reading about the staff at David Bromberg's shop in Wilmington, and the school was mentioned in someone's bio. The North Bennet Street School (North Bennet Street School: Home) would be another model to copy. Folks need to learn, rather than be shown.

[bryand]

I think what differentiates this thread is the implication that the term "framebuilder" means that the person in question is now doing it as a business. We have all seen here that there are plenty of craftsman in various trades that are capable of building a nice bike and documenting their process. For example, I have a friend who worked for many years as a fabricator and welded plenty of lightweight, high strength tubes into frames and roll cages for race cars. The need for a safe end result was definitely there and his work needed to be strong as well as straight. He also fabricated plenty of beautiful parts for racing motorcycles and has built intricate curved tube exhaust headers for his own engines.

This guy is an avid cyclist and decided a few years ago to build himself the first of 3 beautiful tig welded frames & components. He fabricated his own jig. The frames are light, strong, well crafted, and he has experimented with/modified the geometry of each successive frame to suit his needs and learn how it affects his ride. Should he not be considered a framebuilder? He certainly has the skills, but lacks the "experience". (And, for the record, he has no intention of starting a frame building business.)

This isn't posted as an argument, but to continue the conversation from you guys. Thanks!

[suzyj]

Asshat me for adding this, but the trade, this trade, needs something like this, The Chicago School of Violin Making, for all the cats who want to be part of its present and future. I happen to be reading about the staff at David Bromberg's shop in Wilmington, and the school was mentioned in someone's bio. The North Bennet Street School (North Bennet Street School: Home) would be another model to copy. Folks need to learn, rather than be shown.

Framebuilding isn't going to survive if the only path in is via the production line, because there isn't a production line any more, except for China. And even then the workers are so thoroughly exploited that they don't ever learn more than their tiny piece of the process, exactly because the employer is afraid of them gaining enough skills to become competitors.

[e-RICHIE]

Framebuilding isn't going to survive if the only path in is via the production line, because there isn't a production line any more, except for China. And even then the workers are so thoroughly exploited that they don't ever learn more than their tiny piece of the process, exactly because the employer is afraid of them gaining enough skills to become competitors.

Agreed. The improvements made to manufactured bicycles in the last 2+ decades have all but superseded the need that existed that framebuilders once filled exclusively. That's the fact of life I keep referring to atmo. The pie is smaller, almost to the point of being crumbs (by contrast to what it was) and the bicycles a framebuilder is selling against have a much easier path into the consumer psyche than ever before. For this (framebuilding) to be a viable career choice, folks have to have skills, experiences, and the ability to make markets. I see that as an extremely hard fight to win if you're someone with very few years at the bench or haven't done lots of repetitive work. Said another way, all the enthusiasm, blogging, stainless steel gee-gaws, and stealth paint schemes will mean little if you haven't made a lot of frames for a decent amount of time. On the other hand, if you don't care about longevity, remuneration, or simply have 1-2 other jobs, it may not matter. My voice is aimed at folks who want a career, and who want to make money.

[Eric Estlund]

because there isn't a production line any more, except for China.

The line I worked on still exists.

I sometimes get the feeling that people wish for frame shops close to them so they could walk down and get a job. I don't know that it's ever been that way. If you wanted a job at Raleigh back in the day you moved to Nottingham. Same today- if you want a job frame building company you apply and (if you get it) move there. Where I worked they turned down many more people then they hired- they WANTED people with integrity and critical thinking skills that would work for the benefit of the company. They rewarded versatile employees, and if you only wanted to work in your station you wouldn't make it long.

I'm not claiming this is the only path to entry, but how many of the US guys packed it up and went abroad in the 70's? I don't know that it's changed so much as we are misremembering how it was.

I know builders that make great bikes that did it differently, of course, but it's "still" a way.

[boots2000]

And he was a home brewer.
And he still owns the company. Has not sold out to the big conglomerates.