Bikes and how they are ridden

[SteveP]

One thing that often seems omitted in threads like this is the end goal of the cyclist. I enjoy an occasional fast (for me) group ride on a small, swervie, roads. Having to chase out of corners and worrying about how to take the corners (which I suck at so any advise here would be great).

set up for the corner better. go in slower- come out faster.

less effort- better results.

[swoop]

you've probably got a horrible position on the bike with too much weight on the back wheel and not enough on the front because you pridefully sit on the bike like an egg in an egg cup and think its ok because you're overweight and your fitter put you there. your arms are probably stiff, you're probably tense, and you're likely not trying to feel with your feet what's going on with your tires (assuming they're clinchers...tubulars require less thought in corners) so you can press them into the ground as you turn, but your cleats are likely too forward anyway. you've probably developed this disconnect and reinforced it over a decade instead of developing the skill. and you've probably not thought to pay attention to changing your weight distribution on the bike to keep both tires planted in a dynamic way through the turn. you're prolly not pressing down with your inside hand. try keeping the inside knee in instead of kicking it out.
if you'd relax about this bike rider and cyclist thing and try and work on developing the skill rather than banishing yourself to the wastelands of disconnectedness and defending the right to skill-less-ness... the end result is that you'll be able to corner.


there's your advice.

[Tom]

How many can honestly say bike riding is work? If you are doing something you'd rather not be doing but you do it because they pay you to do it, you're working. The rest is just playing around.

Getting good at riding a bike is a skill. Most here draw their paychecks from something else, for them riding bikes is recreation.

[SteveP]

How many can honestly say bike riding is work? If you are doing something you'd rather not be doing but you do it because they pay you to do it, you're working. The rest is just playing around.

Getting good at riding a bike is a skill. Most here draw their paychecks from something else, for them riding bikes is recreation.

believe me, nobody was gonna pay me to ride a bike.
i figured out a way to beat the system.

[GrantM]

You can say something in a way that gets a person's hackles up, or you can say something in a way that gets their wheels turning. Obviously, if your intention is pure - you're honestly trying to offer them the benefit of your knowledge and experience - you going to say it to achieve the latter.

But I think too often here in this Land of Anonymity, we take the other road and mock first and then feign genuine surprise when our message is received with defensive hostility. Going back again to the post on the fredly BMC, I wonder how many would walk up to the owners of that bike or those Serottas posted and say, "Man, you really got ripped off, that bike is a POS and your position sucks." If someone was brave enough to do it, would the expected answer be, "Gee, I never noticed that, thanks for trying to help me out." No, you'd be feigning genuine surprise at the blood running down your Rapha jersey.

The e-world has gone snarky, and because of this, opportunities are being lost. But maybe that doesn't matter -we can't all rise to the occasion and graciously offer to help cyclists who have made bad choices, or had bad choices foisted upon them. Maybe putting aside all the purported good we do in order to "blow off a little steam" is more important. I dunno, I can only say that having been on the other side of it in a completely different venue, I've chosen to try to craft my words in a way that makes me sound more positive and helpful in this thing I obsess about now.

You seem to be applying some standard I just don't find logical. If I see a movie, and I really don't
like it, I might just mention to a few friends that I thought it sucked. It's not the same as a review
in the NYTimes. I don't think it's fair to hold them to the same level or responsibility
in their reasoning, and I don't think the movie's director needs to contemplate suicide because
someone hated their work.

I think everyone here can offer whatever gracious help is asked of them. All you have to
do is ask. But in this case, nobody asked for that advice, and if a few guys hanging out in a bar
on a saturday night start talking about it, the response given might be a less than perfectly formed answser.
Lighten up already.

[atmo]

You seem to be applying some standard I just don't find logical. If I see a movie, and I really don't
like it, I might just mention to a few friends that I thought it sucked. It's not the same as a review
in the NYTimes. I don't think it's fair to hold them to the same level or responsibility
in their reasoning, and I don't think the movie's director needs to contemplate suicide because
someone hated their work.

I think everyone here can offer whatever gracious help is asked of them. All you have to
do is ask. But in this case, nobody asked for that advice, and if a few guys hanging out in a bar
on a saturday night start talking about it, the response given might be a less than perfectly formed answser.
Lighten up already.

this also sounds on the money to me, atmo.
personally, i'd give the same opinion about a bicycle to its owner
whether the chat was here, somewhere else online, or in person.

[swoop]

in editing out my own little rant here.. i think it steps on toes and the truth of it is lost through my bad writing.

[Tom]

Is cool, man, nobody's attacking your opinions. It's just a chat board.

[atmo]

Is cool, man, nobody's attacking your opinions. It's just a chat board.

tom -
these posts aren't threaded.
whose are you replying to atmo?

[Dave Kirk]

I fully realize that I, as the O.P. have no control the direction this thread goes. That said I'm a bit bummed at it's direction.

* I think one doesn't need to be a mental health care professional to realize that folks are hurt in some way when other's call their bikes fucking ugly. It's simply insulting and regardless of how much some might think that they should not take it personally, they will. This is the reality of the situation even if you don't like it. IMO those that think the folks that get hurt by this insulting manner should "get over it" and be grateful to have such seasoned advice need to get over it themselves. When attacked people will respond in a negative way. Surprise.

* my OP had nothing to do with a "fred" thread. I didn't read the fred thread. Life is too short for that stuff.

* my OP dealt with the thought that many folks have much to learn about how to ride effectively and efficiently, that the internet and it's forums like this might be a good tool to help folks learn more about this, and that with these new found skills and the additional knowledge that their bikes might start to be set up in a more traditional race mode that would allow higher speeds, more comfort and better handling and to some eyes be more attractive. Now that was a long sentence!

* so if I can round this back to the beginning and ask a non-rhetorical question for a change................ how can we help educate folks both new and old how to better use the bikes they own? As well intentioned as some of the comment have been in this thread it's my opinion that they need to be more pointed. In other words saying "ride your mountain bike" will make sense to the poster but the reader in need of education might not get much from it. "Why am I riding my mountain bike?", "what am I supposed to be learning or feeling when I'd doing it?". I fully agree that riding off road is a great way to learn handling but I think that the posts might need to be more specific.

So is there a way to get this done or am I just a hopeless foolish romantic?

dave

[swoop]

dave, i think every time you post you do that in spades. i think its inherent to you... and we're all the better for it. so the simple answer for you to post more.

to address the specific: its unwieldy to describe what is best shown. so much of the skillset is best and most efficiently transmitted en vivo.


http://www.velocipedesalon.com/forum...sg1196#msg1196

[Jonathan]

So is there a way to get this done or am I just a hopeless foolish romantic?
dave

I hope the former.

You've earned the high road Dave and I agree with you. Maybe you could do a short series we'd make sticky on how you deal with clients who are either inflexible or maybe have a medical condition that results on a frame that does not have race dimensions.

I for one don't like animosity generated between this forum and SF. I'd love for new original content to define what this salon is all about. How about it?

[Tom]

To the original question:

Part of the problem is knowing who knows what they are talking about. I'm not sure what one does with that except listen, try for yourself, give it a little time and see how it works out.

I ride with people that have ridden for more years than I have been alive that probably know lots that they could teach me but are not inclined. They ride their ass off and you pretty much have to go crosseyed to keep up with them, but if you do manage to keep your eyes open you will pick up a thing or two. The problem is, they don't want to bother to take the time to slow the hell down and talk. One could learn a lot more in the same time, I believe, if that happened.

Other people I've never ridden with but they said one or two things to me that really clicked. Especially when I asked how I'd know if I wasn't doing what they said... and they said "You won't be able to make the bike go, that's how you'll tell." It's the one sentence here and there, wheh they thought I was ready for one more thing.

Some people are lucky. They live where there are mentors that want to teach. My brother's kids were lucky enough to go to KUA and get taught by that guy up there - New Englanders may have heard of him - and you can tell they were taught even from still pictures of them.

Shop rides that don't turn into mini races are good, as are the Tuesday club rides around here. It comes back around to knowing who knows what they are talking about, though.

One needs to have an open mind, listen, apply their critical thinking to the solutions given and try stuff out. Give it time. If it works, you'll get it. If it doesn't work then it's experience.

[Dekonick]

Dave,

No - I don't think you are a hopeless romantic. Given the collective wisdom of all who frequent here - and elsewhere - it is a matter of addressing common issues that plague new riders and riders who otherwise would not have access to this knowledge. Perhaps a WIKI of sorts that contained not only text answers, but perhaps pictures and even video. This could be an ongoing project that evolves. I was looking at some of the blog entries at Richard Sach's and found them interesting, sometimes opiniated, but missing something. The information is there. The problem is it can be hard to sift the chaff from the grains.

I suppose it needs to start by collecting a base of questions that need answering and go from there.

Just my thoughts.

Dek.

[Catulle]

Well, I think that a way to enlighten people by way of this venue, is for people such as yourself and others, people with experience and solid knowledge, to write every so often about the fundamentals of biking. For instance, how to reach a balanced position on a bicycle, including specific examples. For instance, pro and cons of a higher or lower bottom bracket. Saddle set back...

Indeed, I think an endeavor of this nature would be extremely helpful, and would be a huge step forward in terms of curtailing the power of so many bike shops and manufacturers to build self-defeating contraptions. Yes, I find that we argue a lot about cryptic things and at the end no one is the wiser.

[WadePatton]

*
So is there a way to get this done or am I just a hopeless foolish romantic?

dave

Hell yeah, this is the beginnings of it right here. And as I do ride my mountain bikes more than anything else and I've rarely ridden with anyone but club-level casual roadies (except for the racer that got me started 22 years ago), I have lots to learn. 90% of my road riding is solo. This old dog loves learning.

[Catulle]

Jonathan is wise beyond his years.

So is there a way to get this done or am I just a hopeless foolish romantic?
dave

I hope the former.

You've earned the high road Dave and I agree with you. Maybe you could do a short series we'd make sticky on how you deal with clients who are either inflexible or maybe have a medical condition that results on a frame that does not have race dimensions.

I for one don't like animosity generated between this forum and SF. I'd love for new original content to define what this salon is all about. How about it?

[Catulle]

Is Dave the new Obama?

[Len J]

So is there a way to get this done or am I just a hopeless foolish romantic?

dave

Great post again Dave......& I couldn't agree more.

In terms of the education..............Maybe we should start with a list of topics. The problem with a general issue like this is that it is too easy to confuse the "What do I want taught?" from the "How should I teach it?" So I'd recommend that we first list the topics that we think should be taught...and then pick one at a time & figure out how.

Here are a few that would seem to be worth some education:

1.) How to properly sit on a race bike & why
2.) How to properly corner...including countersteering, line, deceleration & acceleration points
3.) Descending technique
4.) Proper weight distribution on a bike & why.
5.) Developing a proper pedal stroke
6.)

I think we come up with the list first & then figure out for each one how to accumulate info on each topic.......we all learn different...for some a video would be the best, for others, reading, for others speaking, for others teaching....etc,etc.

IMO

len

[swoop]

i think you can tell a guy how to turn a bike online but it wont change anything except some superficial stuff and he'll feel like he's getting it because it written.
i think you can show a guy and i think for the volumes written about turning and line taking.. just ask a local that is an accomplished rider to do cornering drills with you for twenty minutes one day and... life will change.

follow a good descender and you'll learn about taking a line. or go watch a nrc crit and sit in the corner... and watch everything they do.

its the only way.

seriously.