Cuomo - why does it take so long from this sort of stuff to come out?

[j44ke]

Doesn’t he have to be found/proven guilty before he leaves his job?

He can't be kicked out of office without due process in the form of an Impeachment process that requires a simple majority to commence and a super majority (2/3) to convict. The party can apply pressure to him by indicating that they will no longer work with him, but in this moment where the governor has so much control over the disbursement of vaccines at the state level, there might not be much stomach for this.

The Impeachment process for NYS is different from the Federal process everyone must know by heart now. Gothamist actually has a good overview: https://gothamist.com/news/so-how-do...new-york-state

Like others have said, I think when victims report misconduct and no one does anything - or they punish the victim for their report - then the system has very obviously failed. But I think when the accused is run out of town without access to due process, then the system has failed again. You can believe in the system and argue for increased sensitivity and fairness to victims while recognizing that due process for the accused is an equal aspect of fairness in that system. Those aren't mutually exclusive.

[Mabouya]

I think his natural tendencies to bully and intimidate will kick in, and he will light himself on fire and have to resign. If it's true his proxies were calling state democrats and questioning their loyalty, and one of these making calls was the state vaccine czar, a line has been crossed.

If true, this was absolutely outrageous.

"Nice people you got here - what a shame if they were to all die of COVID..."

[BBB]

Like others have said, I think when victims report misconduct and no one does anything - or they punish the victim for their report - then the system has very obviously failed. But I think when the accused is run out of town without access to due process, then the system has failed again. You can believe in the system and argue for increased sensitivity and fairness to victims while recognizing that due process for the accused is an equal aspect of fairness in that system. Those aren't mutually exclusive.

There's a couple of issues here and with some other cases mentioned in this thread and commented on previously.

Conduct in the workplace or while in office should be subject to some formal internal process. All corporate workplaces will have a policy or a process to follow if an allegation of sexual harrassment or sexual misconduct is made. Political work places...not so much. In the case of the ministerial staffer who was allegedly raped in the ministers office (as referenced in my earlier post), it has become abundantly clear that the absence of such formal procedures is extremely problematic. As is the manner in which they are employed (job security is essentially non-existent and hence there is a disincentive for these issues to be reported). An added difficulty is when the allegation of mis-conduct is made against a politician (which wasn't the case with the ministerial staffer I have mentioned). Politicians are not employed per se and are subject to different processes and procedures (like the impeachment procedure discussed earlier). Presumably if an internal procedure is followed to the tee and a finding is made supporting the mis-conduct alleged, the right thing to do would be to resign rather than put the issue to the whims of politics via an impeachment. But, this doesn't seem to happen.

Then there is the more tricky cases that happen outside the political sphere, like the allegations surrounding the Australian AG or the numerous allegations against Trump. While on the one hand they go to the fitness of the person to hold high office, the simple fact that they are made against a politician means treatment of the issue is going to be a political issue. As Trump himself said, he could shoot someone and not lose voters. What a messed up world we live in.

In the case of the Australian AG, he has taken the step of suing the public broadcaster for defamation. Interesting to see how this plays out as there is a Coroner's investigation into the complainant's suicide, a push, publically and politically, for the AG to stand down while a properly constituted investigation is held and now legal proceedings.

[Bobonli]

He was at a new conference yesterday. Standing behind him were a small contingent of big whigs supporting him. Some have a LOT to gain by him riding this out, so they are going to remain loyal and hope no one really notices that they are remaining loyal. If he self destructs they can slink away into the background; if he prevails, they'll be the first to tout his great leadership in exchange for approvals on special projects and state loans.

Cuomo still wields a lot of power and I doubt they have enough votes to impeach for two reasons (1) fear they could impeach and 'miss' (acquit) and then they'd have to deal with his vengence (2) he's gonna owe some people some pretty big favors when this is all over.

[e-RICHIE]

He was at a new conference yesterday. Standing behind him were a small contingent of big whigs supporting him. Some have a LOT to gain by him riding this out, so they are going to remain loyal and hope no one really notices that they are remaining loyal. If he self destructs they can slink away into the background; if he prevails, they'll be the first to tout his great leadership in exchange for approvals on special projects and state loans.

Cuomo still wields a lot of power and I doubt they have enough votes to impeach for two reasons (1) fear they could impeach and 'miss' (acquit) and then they'd have to deal with his vengence (2) he's gonna owe some people some pretty big favors when this is all over.

Makes me wonder how Trump evaded his accusations.

[j44ke]

There's a couple of issues here and with some other cases mentioned in this thread and commented on previously.

Conduct in the workplace or while in office should be subject to some formal internal process. All corporate workplaces will have a policy or a process to follow if an allegation of sexual harrassment or sexual misconduct is made. Political work places...not so much. In the case of the ministerial staffer who was allegedly raped in the ministers office (as referenced in my earlier post), it has become abundantly clear that the absence of such formal procedures is extremely problematic. As is the manner in which they are employed (job security is essentially non-existent and hence there is a disincentive for these issues to be reported). An added difficulty is when the allegation of mis-conduct is made against a politician (which wasn't the case with the ministerial staffer I have mentioned). Politicians are not employed per se and are subject to different processes and procedures (like the impeachment procedure discussed earlier). Presumably if an internal procedure is followed to the tee and a finding is made supporting the mis-conduct alleged, the right thing to do would be to resign rather than put the issue to the whims of politics via an impeachment. But, this doesn't seem to happen.

Then there is the more tricky cases that happen outside the political sphere, like the allegations surrounding the Australian AG or the numerous allegations against Trump. While on the one hand they go to the fitness of the person to hold high office, the simple fact that they are made against a politician means treatment of the issue is going to be a political issue. As Trump himself said, he could shoot someone and not lose voters. What a messed up world we live in.

In the case of the Australian AG, he has taken the step of suing the public broadcaster for defamation. Interesting to see how this plays out as there is a Coroner's investigation into the complainant's suicide, a push, publically and politically, for the AG to stand down while a properly constituted investigation is held and now legal proceedings.

I am not really sure I understand what you are saying here.

[Peter Polack]

Power.

That was going to be my exact reply.

For a better explanation of how and why certain people get away with it, read Ronan Farrow's book, Catch and Kill: Lies, Spies, and a Conspiracy to Protect Predators. I just finished reading it.

[Peter Polack]

This cat can lose his job yet for four years Trump was untouchable?

Regardless of the facts or severity of accusations, I don’t understand why one is possibly gone when the other remained.

Just as I suggested j44ke read Ronan Farrow's book, I highly recommend you read Mary Trump's biography of her uncle Donald, Too Much and Never Enough-How My Family Created The World's Most Dangerous Man.. Besides the biography and the politics, it explains how he was able to get away with it. Trump is also featured in the Ronan Farrow book. I literally just finished reading Trump's book this past weekend.

[BBB]

I am not really sure I understand what you are saying here.

My apologies.

I am suggesting there are two types of cases when it comes to harassment (or worse) in the political spectrum.

The first involves conduct in the work place. Most normal work places have policies and procedures to deal with this. Politicians (or their work places) seem not to have such policies and procedures. The absence of policies and procedures and the problems this can cause has been made reasonably clear in the instance of the alleged rape of the staffer that I raised earlier on in the thread. The difficulty when it comes to a politician doing the wrong thing their tenure is not dependent on the outcome of following the policy and procedure (if there is one in the first place). To be clear if there was an internal investigation that found that politician A put their hand on employee B's breast, then such a finding is not going to result in them their losing their position (as it would in most normal workplaces). Rather, their tenure will be dependent on a political process (the impeachment process you mention or an election).

The second involves conduct outside of the work place, or to be more specific, conduct prior to their election. This applies to Trump (as I understand everything alleged against him took place prior to his election in 2016) and the Australian AG (what is alleged against him took place when he was 17). As much as the normal person in the street might find the conduct alleged appalling, the fate of the politician is really down to politics. In Trump's case he brushed off the allegations and was elected. In the AG example, the narrative is the police aren't pressing charges and therefore he is innocent and there is nothing to see here. In other words a political solution to a vexing issue.

[vertical_doug]

And then there is fighting dirty like releasing the employees records and other things to muddy the water. It all will go downhill from here.
(So to answer the original question, why does it take so long for someone to stand up to a man in power? Because your life ends up being the one on trial....)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

As per the NYTimes
By Maggie Haberman and Jesse McKinley
March 16, 2021, 7:20 p.m. ET
Days after Lindsey Boylan became the first woman to accuse Gov. Andrew M. Cuomo of sexual harassment in a series of Twitter posts in December, people tied to the governor started circulating an open letter that they hoped former staff members would sign.

The letter was a full-on attack on Ms. Boylan’s credibility, suggesting that her accusation was premeditated and politically motivated. It disclosed personnel complaints filed against her and attempted to link her to supporters of former President Donald J. Trump.

“Weaponizing a claim of sexual harassment for personal political gain or to achieve notoriety cannot be tolerated,” the letter concluded. “False claims demean the veracity of credible claims.”

The initial idea, according to three people with direct knowledge of the events, was to have former Cuomo aides — especially women — sign their names to the letter and circulate it fairly widely.

Multiple drafts were created, and Mr. Cuomo was involved in creating the letter, one of the people said. Current aides to the governor emailed at least one draft to a group of former advisers. From there, it circulated to current and former top aides to the governor.

It is not clear how many people were asked to sign the letter, but two former officials, speaking on the condition of anonymity because they did not want to anger Mr. Cuomo, decided that they did not want their names on it.

The letter, which was reviewed by The New York Times, was never released. Ms. Boylan did not immediately elaborate or follow up on her Twitter posts in December, allowing her accusations to fade, along with the urgency of the effort to discredit her. Still, the letter shows that the Cuomo administration was poised to quickly and aggressively undercut Ms. Boylan, a Democrat who is running for Manhattan borough president.

At the time, officials in the governor’s office were aware of another sexual harassment issue involving Mr. Cuomo that had not yet become public.

Six months earlier, Charlotte Bennett, an executive assistant and senior briefer, had told two senior officials in the governor’s office that he had harassed her, asking her probing personal questions including whether she was monogamous and whether she slept with older men.

Ms. Bennett went public with her allegations in The New York Times last month, saying in an interview how she “understood that the governor wanted to sleep with me,” adding that she “felt horribly uncomfortable and scared.”

Ms. Bennett came forward just days after Ms. Boylan had written an essay on Medium, detailing the allegations that she initially made on Twitter on Dec. 13. Ms. Boylan wrote that the governor would repeatedly try to touch her on her arms, legs and lower back, and that he once suggested they “play strip poker.”

Charlotte Bennett, a former aide to Gov. Andrew Cuomo, said that Mr. Cuomo asked if she was monogamous and whether she slept with older men.Credit...Elizabeth Frantz for The New York Times
Since then, several other women have accused Mr. Cuomo of inappropriate conduct, from unwanted sexual advances to unsolicited kisses and groping.

The governor has denied ever touching anyone inappropriately and has pleaded with New Yorkers to await the outcome of two separate investigations: one overseen by the state attorney general, Letitia James, and another by the State Assembly. While Mr. Cuomo has suggested that some of his actions or statements may have been misinterpreted, his rejection of Ms. Boylan’s claims has been far more strenuous.

“I believe a woman has the right to come forward and express her opinion and express issues and concerns that she has,” Mr. Cuomo said on Dec. 14. “But it’s just not true.”

Richard Azzopardi, a senior adviser to the governor, said on Tuesday that the administration had no comment on the letter about Ms. Boylan, citing the ongoing investigations.



At least one version of the letter included Ms. Boylan’s text exchanges with some of Mr. Cuomo’s senior advisers last year, in an effort to suggest that she was malicious. The Times is not quoting extensively from the letter, to avoid publishing character attacks that were not made publicly.

The draft extensively disparaged Ms. Boylan and accused her of using her claims for “political retribution.”

The letter pointed out that Ms. Boylan’s campaign consultant also represented a political adversary of the governor’s, and that Ms. Boylan was “supported by lawyers and financial backers of Donald Trump: an active opponent of the governor.”

The initial plan for a letter about Ms. Boylan illustrated how the Cuomo administration was prepared to launch a broader effort to damage her credibility.

The approach appeared consistent with a culture of intimidation from the governor’s office that former aides have described, and Ms. Boylan was clearly a target.

The Wall Street Journal reported last week that aides to Mr. Cuomo called at least six former aides shortly after Ms. Boylan’s Twitter posts, which accused the governor of harassing her in front of others. The calls were to ask whether the former aides had heard from the accuser, or to learn things about her. Some of those contacted felt as though the calls were meant to intimidate them from speaking out.

Another of Mr. Cuomo’s accusers and another former aide, Ana Liss, said that she had received a call from a top adviser to the governor shortly after Ms. Boylan tweeted about the governor in December.

“I thought, why would he do that?” Ms. Liss, who now works for Monroe County, said in an interview. “He was trying to confirm how broad Lindsey’s network was.”

On Tuesday, Ms. Boylan’s lawyer, Jill Basinger, said the letter was another attempt to smear her client.

“Once again, a victim of sexual harassment who has the courage to tell her story is put in the position of not only having to relive the trauma of a toxic work environment but defend herself against the malicious leaking of supposed personnel files, character assassinations and a whisper campaign of retaliation,” Ms. Basinger said. “This page needs to be ripped out of the governor’s harassment handbook.”

The use of such tactics in harassment claims is so commonplace that it has its own acronym: DARVO, which stands for “deny, attack, and reverse victim and offender.”

“It is incredibly common for individuals who experience sexual harassment to also experience retaliation,” said Emily Martin, vice president for education and workplace justice at the National Women’s Law Center, which runs the Time’s Up Legal Defense Fund. “We’ve heard from thousands of individuals who are seeking help to address workplace harassment, and more than 70 percent of them say they have also experienced retaliation.”

Shortly after Ms. Boylan had first accused Mr. Cuomo, several media organizations published details of her personnel records that were released by the Cuomo administration, outlining unflattering accounts of Ms. Boylan’s past actions as a boss and recommendations of disciplinary action against her.

For supporters of Mr. Cuomo, who has denied any wrongdoing, the documents were exculpatory, painting a picture of a disgruntled employee with an ax to grind.

Beth Garvey, the acting counsel to Mr. Cuomo, defended the release of Ms. Boylan's records, saying on Tuesday that, with certain exceptions, “it is within a government entity’s discretion to share redacted employment records, including in instances when members of the media ask for such public information and when it is for the purpose of correcting inaccurate or misleading statements.”

She, too, cited the attorney general’s investigation and refrained from additional comment.

The speed at which the documents were provided was exceptional, particularly considering that statehouse reporters in Albany and elsewhere are accustomed to waiting for months, if not years, for access to public records through the state’s Freedom of Information Law.

“The administration has a well-documented record to being pretty closed on FOIL,” said Blair Horner, the executive director of the New York Public Interest Research Group, noting efforts to stymie reporters looking into Joseph Percoco, a close aide of Mr. Cuomo’s who was convicted of federal corruption charges in 2018. “There’s considerable and consistent examples of them making it extremely difficult to get records.”

Lawyers who work on sexual harassment said that an employee’s work history was immaterial to whether or not they can claim harassment.

“There’s not a defense to harassment that the person was a bad employee,” said Elizabeth Kristen, a senior staff attorney with Legal Aid at Work in San Francisco, adding, “It’s not even relevant. Maybe she was the worst employee in the world, but she could still be harassed.”

[j44ke]

My apologies.

I am suggesting there are two types of cases when it comes to harassment (or worse) in the political spectrum.

The first involves conduct in the work place. Most normal work places have policies and procedures to deal with this. Politicians (or their work places) seem not to have such policies and procedures. The absence of policies and procedures and the problems this can cause has been made reasonably clear in the instance of the alleged rape of the staffer that I raised earlier on in the thread. The difficulty when it comes to a politician doing the wrong thing their tenure is not dependent on the outcome of following the policy and procedure (if there is one in the first place). To be clear if there was an internal investigation that found that politician A put their hand on employee B's breast, then such a finding is not going to result in them their losing their position (as it would in most normal workplaces). Rather, their tenure will be dependent on a political process (the impeachment process you mention or an election).

The second involves conduct outside of the work place, or to be more specific, conduct prior to their election. This applies to Trump (as I understand everything alleged against him took place prior to his election in 2016) and the Australian AG (what is alleged against him took place when he was 17). As much as the normal person in the street might find the conduct alleged appalling, the fate of the politician is really down to politics. In Trump's case he brushed off the allegations and was elected. In the AG example, the narrative is the police aren't pressing charges and therefore he is innocent and there is nothing to see here. In other words a political solution to a vexing issue.

Thanks, I understand now.