consumers: how much does frame price influence your initial thoughts on quality

[davids]

I'm of the mind that frames should always be as inexpensive as possible. geometry, materials and quality of fabrication are what I want to sell. I don't want to compete with folks who have reputation as bespoke craftsmen or "artists". I want to beat and compete with those who make their stuff in taiwan. For me, building bikes is a cultural and political crusade more than an aestehtic or artistic pursuit. Smash the corporate oinks, drown them in their own bullshit if I can... You can get Spectrum to paint anything... I don't even want paint on my bikes. Just sweat, blood and energy gel.
I've never paid retail for a bike in my life (my first real bike I bought as a bike shop rat, my second I got for free as a half decent jr. racer), and I think that has had a valuable effect on my view of bicycles.
I just want to make ruthless black ano killing machines, put the cheapest possible parts on them, and send them into the field to reap the souls and legs of infidels who don't beleive in my vision of american manufacturing might and no-frills all performance racing and riding machines.

As someone with a liberal-arts degree, I also love all of the super dialed, super loved on bikes out there, but I know deep down I'll never be able to afford one. For the 2 years I wasn't either a fully sponsored rider or the physical embodiment of a bike company, I bought and rode Giant's (happily, fwiw).

There are 3 types of people who buy high-end bikes; Aesthetits, Racers and Wannabee's

I like the first two.

I admire your passion, but just about nothing you wrote makes sense to me. Your economic goals (as best I can makes sense of them) are mutually contradictory.


"frames should always be as inexpensive as possible." OK, so they should reflect the cost of materials and - what - slave labor? Or maybe materials and a living wage? Or maybe materials and a wage commensurate with, say, 30 years of experience? How much do you think a framemaker is entitled to earn? (Who makes this decision - you or the marketplace?)

"I want to beat and compete with those who make their stuff in taiwan." How does this desire jibe with this one: "my vision of american manufacturing might"? You want to beat Taiwan? There's no way you're going to do that and pay your American craftsmen a living wage, let alone a wage that compensates them for their expertise. You're going to have to go one way or the other - cheap bikes made by cheap labor or expensive bikes made by expensive labor.

"I've never paid retail for a bike in my life", so you've got no appreciation for the retail industry. This segment is facing massive pressures now (read the jerk's peices for a cogent discussion of what's going on), but if you ignore the value of a brick-and-mortar shop to create, support and perpetuate the cycling market, you're going to end up either peddling bespoke bikes to a very exclusive demographic or mass-produced off-shore generica to hipster webcrawlers.

Now as far as your aesthetics: "ruthless black ano killing machines", "no-frills all performance racing and riding machines" aesthetic. OK, I get that. And you'll save some production costs by not painting your frames, and even more by building them with 105 or LX rather than DuraAce or XTR. But you're never going to compete with Giant on cost, no matter how compelling your manifesto.

Your company's got a cool image and what looks like some really nice frames. All this righteous anger is just noise, atmo. But then I outgrew my infatuation with the noble outlaw about the time the Clash broke up. I'm guessing you're not going after my demographic, huh?

[Too Tall]

Davids, he could have just downed an entire carafe of hair raiser coffee ;)

It's the beans!

[swoop]

Too me it's about CHEMISTRY between the builder and the new buyer. Price is what it is. If there's no bond between the two then it's just a frame.

tell Nikki at FourPlay on Sawtelle that I really did think she loved me and what happened in the champaign room was special, but I do need my credit card back and i'm sure now that the kid isn't mine.

[jerk]

I'm of the mind that frames should always be as inexpensive as possible. geometry, materials and quality of fabrication are what I want to sell. I don't want to compete with folks who have reputation as bespoke craftsmen or "artists". I want to beat and compete with those who make their stuff in taiwan. For me, building bikes is a cultural and political crusade more than an aestehtic or artistic pursuit. Smash the corporate oinks, drown them in their own bullshit if I can... You can get Spectrum to paint anything... I don't even want paint on my bikes. Just sweat, blood and energy gel.
I've never paid retail for a bike in my life (my first real bike I bought as a bike shop rat, my second I got for free as a half decent jr. racer), and I think that has had a valuable effect on my view of bicycles.
I just want to make ruthless black ano killing machines, put the cheapest possible parts on them, and send them into the field to reap the souls and legs of infidels who don't beleive in my vision of american manufacturing might and no-frills all performance racing and riding machines.

As someone with a liberal-arts degree, I also love all of the super dialed, super loved on bikes out there, but I know deep down I'll never be able to afford one. For the 2 years I wasn't either a fully sponsored rider or the physical embodiment of a bike company, I bought and rode Giant's (happily, fwiw).

There are 3 types of people who buy high-end bikes; Aesthetits, Racers and Wannabee's

I like the first two.

mickey-
of course you could afford it. the most expensive bike frame in the world is still cheaper than the world's worst automobile.

i read this as manic. no amount of weird superlatives and adjectives parodying a circa 1989 maximumrocknroll record review are going to magically bestow upon a bike frame any more objective importance. on a social level, you are making or having someone make bikes that you sell. there is no inherent violence to this action, nor is there any revolutionary import. embrace this- don't diminish or ridicule all your hard work and great bikes with misappropriated lofty conceptual constructs. there are no "corporate oinks" in this industry.

framebuilders have long under-valued their work and any attempt to raise the retail prices raises the bar for everyone. you know as well as anyone what the mass-market carbon chinese bikes cost to make- handmade bikes built by the guy who's name is on the downtube deserve to be priced at what they are worth.

craig/jerk

[suspectdevice]

David,
We just make frames. We sweat the most on keeping the price as low as possible, and the performance as high as possible. It's why our production stuff is 6061. Absolutely the best bang for the buck. In fact, the best bang period. What we do at Spooky is very different from Cocconio, Sachs or Desalvo. We can and do love doing small custom jobs, or limited production steel stuff, but my overall focus is building bikes for racers that they can actually afford. I fetish-ize beautiful bike gear as much or more than anyone... But in the grand scheme of things, we sell ~500 frames a year to stay afloat, and with that size comes an increased economy of scale that allows us to make great stock bikes more available at a lower price...

Never having paid retail doesn't mean I am deaf, dumb and blind. Except for a 6 month period, I've never had a job in my life that wasn't keyed into selling bikes through retail channels. Our pricing structure is setup such that retailers get a really healthy retail margin, and more importantly to me, a really good employee purchase program.
We sell our frames for a margin that is high enough for us to keep the lights on, support racing as much as possible, and put more time, tech and sweat into continued development.

Our production 6061 bikes are built in Oregon, by Union labor in an ISO certified shop. The bauxite comes from canada, is refined in Washington and the tubes are drawn on site to my specifications. We have a 2 pound road frame that is both stronger in ultimate fatigue and impact than most anything else in it's weight class, and made using domestic materials, fairly paid workers and the utmost, highest possible quality. The fact that it is less than a 1/3rd of the cost of some comparable frames, to me is a selling feature.

There are no compromises anywhere. A full rival build kit, with handlaced wheels and an Edge fork is $2600. It weighs under 17 pounds with pedals. That is competitive enough with Specialzed or Giant for me. I said right up there in the first aspect of my post, or it least it should have scanned as such, We aim for the big companies with the frames we can, and for things we build custom or 5 at a time, we obviously end up charging the same amount as anyone else who builds custom bikes.

Does it bother me that lots of generic taiwanese carbon junk is perceived as "better" by un-informed consumers? I think that it's totally rad. It makes the consumers who are in the know and "get it" a little more likely to loosen their purse strings for something beautiful and of real value. You could buy 2 of our cross frame and forks for one Scott Addict CX, or a frame from Spooky, and most of a Planet 'Cross.

If I was pulling in the sort of money people who work outside of the bike industry does, I'd be spending an easy $10K a year buying some of the really special artisianly made stuff out there... It's beautiful, and it makes me happy in a way that isn't about consumerism, but about interpersonal connections and shared beliefs...

I'm not OK with $7k Sworks bikes, Chinese frames being sold at Italian prices and other crap like that. But $3-4K for a custom built frame and fork, imbued with personality, love and craft? That, i love...

[steve garro]

Yes sir, this a great thread and appreciate you starting this. (ahh) I was feeling an apparently unfounded need to thwart speculation on what seemed obvious to me. Derrr Our forum reigns supreme...who'd a thunk a civil discussion would break out?! ;)

the other day i was at a fight and a hockey game broke out...........steve.

[swoop]

i'm still not understanding your point. i've only ever paid retail for one bike (the speedvagen), most of the others (if not all.. from custom orbeas and sevens, to stock cannondales and all sorts in between) i've either received for free via really fortunate sponsorhip situations, or for cost for really fortunate friendship/sponsorship situations... its amazing what you can get if you ask nicely and offer back some kind of value or charity work.

every bike is made of something and that material is generally arrived out because it works within the scale and scope of a manufacturing process and fits the budget.

you are functioning from the same set of parameters as anyone making a bike. i happen to be fond of the choices you're making but.. they're not any more meaningful or less than any company or person that makes bikes.
as long as they fit, and the frames are aligned... the rest is just all the same details.. it just you salting to your taste... just like they do.

[e-RICHIE]

Does it bother me that lots of generic taiwanese carbon junk is perceived as "better" by un-informed consumers? I think that it's totally rad. It makes the consumers who are in the know and "get it" a little more likely to loosen their purse strings for something beautiful and of real value. You could buy 2 of our cross frame and forks for one Scott Addict CX, or a frame from Spooky, and most of a Planet 'Cross.

...the thing is, even if everyone in the mall believed in the difference and
there was actually a difference, all the spookys and IFs and curtlos in the
world could not supply that niche. there's a reason folks make crap and try
to prop it as better than it is. do you really wanna make all those bikes for
all those peeps atmo? i know i wouldn't. getting a message out is fine; we
do it every time we speak, post a reply, or even drop an altoid when a
young hottie sits at our table. but the reality is all we are doing is sending
out a vibe. it's alot easier to talk about it than to do it. and atmo i know
i'd rather not do it. staying small and focused is my path. with 500 units per
year, spooky is small too. from the few things i read here, the difference is
that i'm okay with making (more) money.

apologies in advance if i have missed a point along the way. i'm a writer, not
a reader atmo.

[Z3c]

Punchline here is that we are trying to rationlize behavior/decisions that are not rooted in being rational. If we were all trying to buy the cheapest bike that meets our performance requirements, the choices made would be different. Thankfully, we are allowed to make up our own minds. For some, there is tremendous value in bang for the buck; for others that is not a driving factor. Who cares? There are enough folks in all of the demographics to make it work for everyone. Sachs closed his list and Spooky sells 500 frames a year. IMHO, that tells me that they are both "right".
I don't understand the condemnation of the big Mfg's though; you would probably not be able to sell 500 frames if Giant/S/Trek didn't sponsor teams and create the interest they do. You won't find their stuff in my garage but I will say I think they make great bikes that get people riding. Get off the supposedly patriotic bandwagen; that kind of thinking is what causes our economic decline. Don't judge foreign labor practices; your perception of "fair" does not apply elsewhere.

Rodney King said it so well..

Scott

[e-RICHIE]

I don't understand the condemnation of the big Mfg's though; <cut>

bravo atmo.
i would never condemn them.
folks need bikes to sell and to ride.
industry has a purpose.
mad ave has a purpose.
and i have never seen anyone sell or ride a bike because a gun was pointed at them.

[Z3c]

bravo atmo.
i would never condemn them.
folks need bikes to sell and to ride.
industry has a purpose.
mad ave has a purpose.
and i have never seen anyone sell or ride a bike because a gun was pointed at them.

Let's make history; I'll point my gun at you and you sell me a bike! I can catch a flight(oh wait I'll have to drive with my gun), would late Wed work for you?

Scott

[redturbo]

I want to beat and compete with those who make their stuff in taiwan. .

Spooky pal, be careful what you ask for you may get it.

[Sasha]

We just make frames.... That, i love...

I think I get it and I think I like it.

[John M]

Not very rational but then this is not a rational issue for me; it is pure emotion.

I think this is (and should be) a big part of it.

[EnginCycles]

Business is a bitch. I work in the airlines and there are exactly zero guarantees in my business. Prices is absolute king and nothing else matters. I know the world of high-end custom bikes is very different and price doesn't matter to a lot of customers.

The business of the high-end bike business is different from a lot of other businesses. It is far less price sensitive than much of the rest of the world.

I hear what you are saying BUT keep in mind we (you and I) made very different decisions in life. I choose a path at the age of 23 and have stuck with it ever since. I opened my bike shop right out of college at 23. Not many 23 year old CEO's but i went incorporated and never answer to a higher power (other than the government for taxes). This is why i can set my price so it reflects my ability to live a comfortable life. I think that is a honest approach. I work long and hard hours and NEVER complain. I choose my job and would never go back and change anything. I sell $275 Jamis bikes on most Saturdays in the season and then might fit someone for a $7500 bike the same day. It is all part of the Industry i love and work in.

You work in the airline industry and it is WAY different. Trek at the top of their game might be worth the same as the company that made the lights in the aisle of that airplane. Huge difference and needs perspective.

I can build 35 -50 MAX bikes a year. My goal is making them the best fit and design i can while delivering in a timely fashion. The cost is based on that. If i need more tools that will allow me to stay on track and not fall behind it is going into the price. I think that is fair. Painter raised the price so i raise the price, UPS raises rates so i raise the price, utility bills go up so does the price. I do not base my price on anyone else in the market. I also don't have any desire to be the lowest price. I hate when some says they are buying my product because it is cheaper than (insert anyone cheaper than me here)! That makes my skin crawl! Buy the bike because you like it and i will make you happy, not because you save a buck.

Make sense or come across as a rant?

Cheers,
Drew

[Too Tall]

The quality goes in before the name goes on.

Name that tagline. Google not allowed.

[Tom Kellogg]

it comes down to economics. My wife's job gives me medical insurance (thank God) but I pay for Jeff's very complete insurance. It costs a whole bunch, Not only does he deserve it and earn it, but my including it in his pay package is simply the right thing to do. Business insurance, product liability, electricity, heat, etc. are part of the overhead numbers, BUT, the time it takes to build a steel frame set is the big thing. In fact, materials are only a small part of our costs. We are not very efficient here. Reasonable or not, we spend a huge amount of time on our frames as do many other builders. That is the big expense. Our prices are set so that, after figuring materials, overhead and salaries/benefits, we don't end up behind. It really is as simple as that. And, yes, I have not gotten a raise from my crummy boss for thirteen years. No joke. Honestly, I don't know what other builders charge because it really doesn't matter. We need to charge what we charge. Otherwise we close up shop. A customer does get a frame with all the time we charge for, but whether that is in fact worth it is their call.

[e-RICHIE]

And, yes, I have not gotten a raise from my crummy boss for thirteen years. No joke.

part of this board's raison d'etre is the honest and transparent exchange
of dialogue between career builders. so, as far as the above factoid goes,
i kinda' sorta' gotta ask - why not atmo?

[swoop]

i have a feeling that when we take the conceptualizing away from it... every person here making bikes sells them more or less what the market supports them selling bikes for.
that for all the talk of this and that.... everything is where it is because its where it fits.

that isn't a statement about anything but the invisible intelligence built into the market and the notion of the invisible forces of the sweet spot and a kind of binding force of some sort of cosmic understanding about how things work.

yes there are statistical anomalies and small clusters at either end of the bell curve (with all due respect for that 8k serotta... i hear more rumors about the constant financial struggles in that company than any other and yet they 'sell' the priciest frame). overall, things are where they are because they are governed but the intelligence of the market.

things are just as they are. one might think they make and sell a bike at a certain price point because it means something, but i think you pull away that way of thinking and you find that it sells at that price because that's the value given to you by the market.
most folks walking into a bike shop faced with what welds look like on an aluminum frame think they're seeing a mistake. the material castrates itself and is a tough sell beyond a certain pricepoint.

so the pricepoint happens right there at the moment the material is ordered.

[e-RICHIE]

i have a feeling that when we take the conceptualizing away from it... every person here making bikes sells them more or less what the market supports them selling bikes for.
that for all the talk of this and that.... everything is where it is because its where it fits.

that isn't a statement about anything but the invisible intelligence built into the market and the notion of the invisible forces of the sweet spot and a kind of binding force of some sort of cosmic understanding about how things work.

yes there are statistical anomalies and small clusters at either end of the bell curve (with all due respect for that 8k serotta... i hear more rumors about the constant financial struggles in that company than any other and yet they 'sell' the priciest frame). overall, things are where they are because they are governed but the intelligence of the market.

things are just as they are.

this sounds like FM radio atmo.