Gerrymandering

[jclay]

You can volunteer your time OR money....or both to help Stacey and Fair Fight:

https://secure.actblue.com/donate/21...L_y_dOgFZU8oIs

[thollandpe]

So writes the wealthy white male,
who owns a bike (s?) worth 10 times the annual salary for most of the world's population, containing multiple parts fabricated with basically slave and/or child labor,
who uses enough water and energy in a week to save the lives of hundreds of less fortunate in that same time,
who drives a vehicle of some sort worth 30 of times the annual income for most of the world,
who contributes directly to toxic emissions at a rate hundreds of times the worldwide average,
who has personally done nothing meaningful or impactful to end this "oppression" or "privilege" except complain via the internet.

YET…

Wow is that a goldmine!

Making a big problem seem insurmountable or even inevitable is one the the prime strategies that been used to forestall action on climate change for decades. It’s become the primary strategy after denying it was a problem in the first place.

And speaking of climate change, worldwide average per capita greenhouse gas emissions are about 5 tonnes per year. U.S. per capita is about 20. But I won’t quibble with your post point-by-point. That particular point is valid, that U.S. greenhouse gas emissions are out-of-hand, but the insinuation that we — anyone and everyone here — can’t do or hasn’t done anything about it is just plain wrong.

I will quibble with the personal accusation, just because you tried to walk it back does not mean you didn’t make it. That’s a cheap shot. I’m guessing you don’t know much about @HorsCat ‘s personal habits or what he does to make the world a better place. Your posts in this thread say more about you than who you’re railing against.

[davids]

No no no, Trod - that's how to build a coalition for change! Attack everyone, probably for things you do/are too.

Plus notice how the post encourages conversation about the issues?

This guy is clearly a community organizer.

[Sino]

Wow is that a goldmine!

Making a big problem seem insurmountable or even inevitable is one the the prime strategies that been used to forestall action on climate change for decades. It’s become the primary strategy after denying it was a problem in the first place.

And speaking of climate change, worldwide average per capita greenhouse gas emissions are about 5 tonnes per year. U.S. per capita is about 20. But I won’t quibble with your post point-by-point. That particular point is valid, that U.S. greenhouse gas emissions are out-of-hand, but the insinuation that we — anyone and everyone here — can’t do or hasn’t done anything about it is just plain wrong.

I will quibble with the personal accusation, just because you tried to walk it back does not mean you didn’t make it. That’s a cheap shot. I’m guessing you don’t know much about @HorsCat ‘s personal habits or what he does to make the world a better place. Your posts in this thread say more about you than who you’re railing against.

Yours is a goldmine as well. david's too. You both say nothing, making no counter points, and basically amount to a child saying "naught anh! naught anh!" while your little elitist click rallies you.

Every single one of you on the other side seem to exclusively use the "it's a prime strategy of X" thinking that's some sort of argument. How about you actually make the counter-argument? But you can't, so you resort to this ridiculous farce while one of you makes an attempted attack on reasonable questions, and the rest of your quasi-intellectual club agrees blindly, accusing the questioner of random, ridiculous things.

Again, I can't say enough times how similar you guys (at least 95% of you are wealthy, white males in case you didn't look in the mirror recently) are to a high school club of rich kids wearing khakis, pastel popper collars and sockless loafers- the very thing you all are pretending to be against. You don't even realize it because you've never dared to venture outside your little club, that's the hilarious part.

[ides1056]

btw, it's spelled clique

[jclay]

Yours is a goldmine as well. david's too. You both say nothing, making no counter points, and basically amount to a child saying "naught anh! naught anh!" while your little elitist click rallies you.

Every single one of you on the other side seem to exclusively use the "it's a prime strategy of X" thinking that's some sort of argument. How about you actually make the counter-argument? But you can't, so you resort to this ridiculous farce while one of you makes an attempted attack on reasonable questions, and the rest of your quasi-intellectual club agrees blindly, accusing the questioner of random, ridiculous things.

Again, I can't say enough times how similar you guys (at least 95% of you are wealthy, white males in case you didn't look in the mirror recently) are to a high school club of rich kids wearing khakis, pastel popper collars and sockless loafers- the very thing you all are pretending to be against. You don't even realize it because you've never dared to venture outside your little club, that's the hilarious part.

You and Corso have produced nothing but straw man arguments accompanied by projecting your behavior onto the rest of us; it’s endemic to today’s GOP so no surprise there.

No further engagement by me.

[HorsCat]

snip

Three beautiful healthy kids and one amazing healthy wife.

So you got the “wealthy” part right, sport.

[zachateseverything]

Yours is a goldmine as well. david's too. You both say nothing, making no counter points, and basically amount to a child saying "naught anh! naught anh!" while your little elitist click rallies you.

Every single one of you on the other side seem to exclusively use the "it's a prime strategy of X" thinking that's some sort of argument. How about you actually make the counter-argument? But you can't, so you resort to this ridiculous farce while one of you makes an attempted attack on reasonable questions, and the rest of your quasi-intellectual club agrees blindly, accusing the questioner of random, ridiculous things.

Again, I can't say enough times how similar you guys (at least 95% of you are wealthy, white males in case you didn't look in the mirror recently) are to a high school club of rich kids wearing khakis, pastel popper collars and sockless loafers- the very thing you all are pretending to be against. You don't even realize it because you've never dared to venture outside your little club, that's the hilarious part.

I recommend that you take a break and go ride your bike.

[theflashunc]

Gee golly one party sure is going to a lot of effort to restrict the franchise.

https://www.texastribune.org/2021/07...ng-bill-texas/

Trump carried Texas by just 5 points in 2020, the closest the state has been since 1996. A flip of Texas blue would doom any Republican chance at the Presidency with California still solidly blue.

So no shock Abbott is calling back the legislature to fix this situation.

[Matthew Strongin]

Yours is a goldmine as well. david's too. You both say nothing, making no counter points, and basically amount to a child saying "naught anh! naught anh!" while your little elitist click rallies you.

Every single one of you on the other side seem to exclusively use the "it's a prime strategy of X" thinking that's some sort of argument. How about you actually make the counter-argument? But you can't, so you resort to this ridiculous farce while one of you makes an attempted attack on reasonable questions, and the rest of your quasi-intellectual club agrees blindly, accusing the questioner of random, ridiculous things.

Again, I can't say enough times how similar you guys (at least 95% of you are wealthy, white males in case you didn't look in the mirror recently) are to a high school club of rich kids wearing khakis, pastel popper collars and sockless loafers- the very thing you all are pretending to be against. You don't even realize it because you've never dared to venture outside your little club, that's the hilarious part.

I honestly have no idea what you were getting at with your prior post (the one with the presumably rhetorical questions) and, as such, can't make heads or tails of what is being discussed in this thread. I'll leave it open until a little later today to give everyone a chance to frame a cogent argument on a very important topic that is at the heart of democracy. Otherwise I'll shut it down.

[Matthew Strongin]

Gee golly one party sure is going to a lot of effort to restrict the franchise.

https://www.texastribune.org/2021/07...ng-bill-texas/

Trump carried Texas by just 5 points in 2020, the closest the state has been since 1996. A flip of Texas blue would doom any Republican chance at the Presidency with California still solidly blue.

So no shock Abbott is calling back the legislature to fix this situation.

I think this really highlights one of the fundamental flaws in the American legislative process, though maybe it's really a flaw in our political system. Problems don't need to agreed upon, validated or confirmed before proposed solutions can be signed into law. No widespread voter fraud has been found, but this legislation strives to solve that non-existent problem at the expense of a fair and free election. It amazes me how easily politicians will ignore the parts of the constitution and bill of rights that don't serve their agenda while touting the sanctity of those same documents in support of those parts that do. It's hard to see this as anything other than an overt attempt to change the rules of the game because they came dangerously close to losing.

[jclay]

Since this thread will be shut down soon I'll make my last pitch. The entire post from which this excerpt was snipped is spot on but needs one contextual correction relative to this passage:

If conservatives become convinced that they can not win democratically, they will not abandon conservatism. The will reject democracy.

It isn't "if" at some point in the future the GOP and it's supporters will abandon democracy in favor of conservatism, they already have. They've been working on this for decades and we're living the last stages of their efforts to pervert our democratic institutions in an effort to cement political domination and their agenda. They're in the sunshine now because they think they have enough horsepower to succeed without concealment.

Now is the time to volunteer your $$ and efforts to defeat them. Not when it gets worse and the deck is stacked against us even more; now. If you feel as I do then I urge you to expend $$ and effort with Stacey Abrams organizations and similar, and support candidates who will protect and expand the franchise.

[Bingissimo]

It isn't "if" at some point in the future the GOP and it's supporters will abandon democracy in favor of conservatism, they already have. They've been working on this for decades and we're living the last stages of their efforts to pervert our democratic institutions in an effort to cement political domination and their agenda. They're in the sunshine now because they think they have enough horsepower to succeed without concealment.

They admiringly look at "managed democracy" or guided democracy as practiced in Hungary, Turkey, even Putin's Russia. They all have the barest pretense of democracy but the ruling parties effectively nullify any and all attempts by the opposition in the legislative process and at election time. They control the judiciary, use private media as state propaganda (Fox News) and even though the people have the vote, that vote means little to nothing in relation to policies and law enacted by the governments.

That's what they want, and what they are close to achieving. Their big tent is a hybrid of white nationalism, christian theocracy, corporate gangsterism and "democratic" plutocracy.

[thollandpe]

[You] are to a high school club of rich kids wearing khakis, pastel popper collars and sockless loafers- the very thing you all are pretending to be against.

You’re funny. Seriously, that is good. Made me picture James Spader in “Pretty In Pink” and what a douche that character was. Thanks for the chuckle.

But that post is bullshit, again.

You both say nothing, making no counter points…

My reply that you were actually quoting pointed out a gross exagggeration you made (100x vs. 4x), why that was disingenuous, and backed it up with actual numbers. A counterpoint.

And then there’s your grab bag of insults that seem to come with most of your posts: child, elitist, ridiculous, quasi-intellectual, etc. Like I said, a goldmine.

PS Regarding the charge of doing nothing but complaining on the internet, JClay has posted repeatedly in this thread on how to support Fair Fight and other orgs.

Here’s another, with a pretty good primer: https://indivisible.org/resource/fig...ndering-states

And another: https://www.brennancenter.org/home

One more: https://www.commoncause.org/state-re...ing-campaigns/

[Sino]

For real laughing out loud.

None of you have any actual arguments, yet you keep egging each other on, as if your mutual self-righteousness is an answer. ("Likes" don't make you right.) If you haven't seen the electric car episode of South Park, take a peak, that's the majority of you.

Again, you are the very thing you claim to be against. I guess the self-righteousness is the obvious cover for so much self-loathing.

[ides1056]

Anonymous invective is the epitome of self-righteousness.

[Matthew Strongin]

For real laughing out loud.

None of you have any actual arguments, yet you keep egging each other on, as if your mutual self-righteousness is an answer. ("Likes" don't make you right.) If you haven't seen the electric car episode of South Park, take a peak, that's the majority of you.

Again, you are the very thing you claim to be against. I guess the self-righteousness is the obvious cover for so much self-loathing.

What is your point? I seriously have no idea what point you are making. What is the thing I claim to be against and what is the very thing that I am? Hit reset, make a cogent argument that isn't just hurling insults and maybe we can talk. Otherwise, please take it elsewhere.

[SlowPokePete]

For real laughing out loud.

None of you have any actual arguments, yet you keep egging each other on, as if your mutual self-righteousness is an answer. ("Likes" don't make you right.) If you haven't seen the electric car episode of South Park, take a peak, that's the majority of you.

Again, you are the very thing you claim to be against. I guess the self-righteousness is the obvious cover for so much self-loathing.

I am at a loss as to why you are on this forum.

SPP

[Saab2000]

For real laughing out loud.

None of you have any actual arguments, yet you keep egging each other on, as if your mutual self-righteousness is an answer. ("Likes" don't make you right.) If you haven't seen the electric car episode of South Park, take a peak, that's the majority of you.

Again, you are the very thing you claim to be against. I guess the self-righteousness is the obvious cover for so much self-loathing.

This place can at times seem like an echo chamber. I’ve also certainly learned that there are some smart folks here and that there is a lot to be learned. As mentioned, make an argument supporting a viewpoint and people will listen and likely respond. But just throwing shade on members here whom you’ve never met and don’t actually know anything about is weak sauce.

The subject of this tread is, narrowly, gerrymandering. More broadly that would be disenfranchisement of voters. Since voter fraud has never been found to be prevalent in the US (isolated cases yes, but rare and generally inconsequential and certainly not systematic), including following Republican and conservative-led investigations, why are we enacting laws that make voting harder rather than easier? The only answer that makes sense is that these are the moves of an ever decreasingly relevant group of folks to maintain their relevance and power by hopefully preventing people who would likely vote against them from voting at all. No other answer I can see fits. But I am absolutely willing to listen to smart people make smart cases.

[monadnocky]

For real laughing out loud.

None of you have any actual arguments, yet you keep egging each other on, as if your mutual self-righteousness is an answer. ("Likes" don't make you right.) If you haven't seen the electric car episode of South Park, take a peak, that's the majority of you.

Again, you are the very thing you claim to be against. I guess the self-righteousness is the obvious cover for so much self-loathing.

Although I don't engage in political discussion on VSalon anymore (nor do I do so anywhere else, really), I do follow the threads, and the reason I do so is that I generally find contributors to be well-informed and engaging. Including those views of people I don't generally agree with, or have a different viewpoint on a particular subject. I don't get the whole "none of you have any actual arguments" thing you're claiming - can you elucidate? What are people "claiming" here, and how are they, "the very thing they claim to be against?" Where are you reading "righteousness" and how is this proof of "self-loathing?"

FWIW, with one exception, I've never [knowingly] met any member here in person, and, besides the obvious variable (bikes), I'm sure there's more heterogeneity in VSalon members than you may think. It's not like they're all fraternity brothers egging one another on.