let's talk marketing

[SteveP]

almost everyones first ( or first and second ) high end bike falls into one of the major brands.
why?
cause they want a bike and they want it now...and in many cases they want to buy it from the guy or the shop who has started them on the path.
" hey, you need a 56, ill change out the stem- pick it up friday..."
theres nothing wrong with this stuff... other than your kid might be on the same brand.
very few customers need a custom bike at all. almost anyone ( not you tt ) could ride something off the rack.

its a long path from here to the web to the nahbs to the desire, patience and the interest in a handbuilt.

it is only the few who have the resources and the patience to make the effort to move into the world of custom.
2 yr wait list?
never mind longer.
its a fairly long walk down the road to the collections that people on here show.

[Z3c]

almost everyones first ( or first and second ) high end bike falls into one of the major brands.
why?
cause they want a bike and they want it now...and in many cases they want to buy it from the guy or the shop who has started them on the path.
" hey, you need a 56, ill change out the stem- pick it up friday..."
theres nothing wrong with this stuff... other than your kid might be on the same brand.
very few customers need a custom bike at all. almost anyone ( not you tt ) could ride something off the rack.

its a long path from here to the web to the nahbs to the desire, patience and the interest in a handbuilt.

it is only the few who have the resources and the patience to make the effort to move into the world of custom.
2 yr wait list?
never mind longer.
its a fairly long walk down the road to the collections that people on here show.

Well said. This speaks well to what Spooky has angst with; most folks are going to ride a nice box bike before buying a custom. A custom frame is very intimidating to a lot of people as they think they may end up with something weird. People need to believe that they have some reference of fit/geo before buying custom. That is why Serotta deserves so much credit; they developed enough of a system that consumers feel confident in buying their bikes. While I think the current Serotta offering is overpriced, I think a lot of folks probably owe them a thanks for helping custom become more mainstream. The other factor to remember is that if I buy a frame from Dave Kirk(just an example) and it fails to meet my expectations what are my options if we don't agree and the builder says oh well? With the LBS you have a relationship. I probably won't fly to Montana to discuss it in person.

Scott

[GSmith]

Since the OP was about marketing, specifically a question of what small builders are doing in that arena, and not about peg bikes vs. custom, I'll make the following observation to try and pull it back a bit.

It's easy to make the statement that many, if not most, riders do not need a custom bike if you define custom only in terms of geo, and maybe ride tuning. What I find in many of our customers is that they don't want custom purely for fit as much as they want custom because of two things; 1) they don't want to ride something that anyone else has, and 2) they value something that wasn't mass produced.

I believe that the profile of many of our customers is one of individualists. I suspect that many of the folks that frequent this forum are as well, judging by the sheer number of entrepreneurs and creative intellectuals that are here.

So what? Understanding that profile and marketing your voice/offer appropriately takes some effort and insight.

[mjbabcock]

All this says to me is that there is huge, untapped potential for smaller builders to "inform" these people and help make a connection for them. That takes marketing.

I think that is why the us builders are so cooperative as suggested by Tom Kellogg in a previous thread. There is a ton of opportunity out there and:

1) the better WE make out product
and
2) the better WE market the "craft" image

the better off everyone is. The guild idea from years back is intriguing in this marketing discussion as it could target both one and two on the above list. FWIW, I think NAHBS is a huge step in targeting the untapped potential out there. Coverage in CyclingNews, Velonews, Pez, etc. is nothing but good for everyone. Even those not getting the media coverage.

[1974Mariposa]

[QUOTE=GSmith;59630]What I find in many of our customers is that they don't want custom purely for fit as much as they want custom because of two things; 1) they don't want to ride something that anyone else has, and 2) they value something that wasn't mass produced.

There's a huge amount of insight in this statement. I had my frame built for me 35 years ago for three reasons 1. It fits me (short legs, long upper torso) i.e. peg bikes were never quite right and with almost track angles, it was a great crit. bike. 2. It was and is f'ing beautiful 3. For the same reasons I buy original art and not repros, there's somebody who would proudly sign their name to it...someone's hands brazed it and filed the lugs and didn't say ah shit it's good enough until it was good enough.

The other thread about marketing and mass brands is interesting in the word "brand" itself - commonly said that products are made in a factory, a brand is made in the mind. It's the promise that the "product" is supposed to fill. I think that's why there wasn't a resonant response to Trek as a brand. So many models trying to cover every price point for every type of potential customer that there can't be a "promise". Porsche has managed to pull-off SUVs and now a 4 door sedan because the performance/price promise hasn't been broken. The promise of any hand built bike IMHO is not so much exclusivity – only a few people you rode by would recognize a Sachs or any other name – name recognition is limited to a VERY small group as opposed to Porsche so almost nobody knows it's a rare piece. The promise is in the care and love and connection between the builder, frame and rider.

[Dave Kirk]

The other factor to remember is that if I buy a frame from Dave Kirk (just an example) and it fails to meet my expectations what are my options if we don't agree and the builder says oh well? With the LBS you have a relationship. I probably won't fly to Montana to discuss it in person.

Scott

So I realize that you didn't intend to call me out here but since I'm named I'll respond.

First off every design gets signed off on before it's built which cuts way down on any chance that you won't get what you want/expect. This takes care of the vast majority of the potential issues such as the client getting their measurements wrong. If the body numbers provided to me say the bike should be a 64 x 52 with a 78* seat angle it doesn't just get built. Everything is gone over until it all makes sense......... body numbers, photos and/or video of the rider on their old bike, lots of questions and the such are all needed to get it just right. All these steps are taken as it's just too risky to do it any other way.

Given the above I have only had one person who wasn't happy with their frame when they got it. It was an issue with the color.......... they expected one thing and got another. A simple misunderstanding. So I took the bike back (at no cost to the client) and had it sprayed the color they really wanted and then they loved the bike. Yes I am in Montana which is far away from many clients but I have a phone and email and I am very responsive to both. In fact I've had only about 6-7 folks come to Bozeman over the years to get the personal treatment and every other transaction has been by phone and email. So there is no need to come here to make a purchase or to talk about an issue. I'm working with a client right now who is in Norway which is as far away as you can get I would guess and it's gone perfectly well......... to me it works just the same as if they were in the next town over.

Additionally....... if you pick your builder well and with consideration you won't end up with one that says "oh well" if there is an issue. Folks like myself simply don't say that and do everything humanly possible to avoid the situation that could lead to that. As a small business that sells stuff to folks who tend to spend a good bit of time online speaking their minds I simply can't tell folks to step off even if I wanted to. It's paramount that the customer be happy which means answering calls and emails, sharing the design process with them and being there after the sale if need be. That's just how it is.

I personally see it as no more risky than going to a shop an hoping you like what you get there. I've done the shop thing and seen things that would make your hair curl.

I'm out - send Richard a few bucks to help get Will D where he needs to be. Give the kid a hand.

later,

dave

[steve garro]

i build what i build. people must like that because the orders somehow come in at about the same rate that the bikes go out - to places i have never been and don't know anyone. i don't question it. i turn on the lights in the morning and the heat on in the winter or open the garage door in the summer, jam my tunes, and make the best goddamn bike i can everyday. it gives me allot of purpose. i'll take what i can get in that dept. i don't make lugged bikes. i don't make TIG bikes. i don't make dual sus bikes. i make my bikes. enough people think that that is good enough to become a client. it all works. my blog is what most cite as what influenced them to call me, and then the phone call sealed it. so, tonight, for your entetainment, i give you this: steve. i will take your thanks in advance.

[giordana93]

The other factor to remember is that if I buy a frame from Dave Kirk(just an example) and it fails to meet my expectations what are my options if we don't agree and the builder says oh well? With the LBS you have a relationship. I probably won't fly to Montana to discuss it in person.

Scott

2 thoughts here. first, if you fail to communicate to the builder what you want, and fail to research the builder enough to expect that s/he will give you what you want, it's not his fault.
2. to follow a line of argument from richard, do you tell a master craftsman--or tailor-- for example, what they should do? no. you ask for a chanel, you get a chanel, not a "gee, could you drop the hemline, that's what dkny was showing this year" type of build. when you plunk your cash down for a kirk (or whoever the builder might be, and it's always less cash than they deserve), it's a commitment to their design philosophy and ability to execute that design for your parameters. you don't have to fly to MT to discuss, but every minute he spends on the phone is not spent on brazing, so....
ok, I'll shut up.. I covet one of these frames. maybe one day when I get my points of contact sorted out.

[Archibald]

what works? what doesn't? whose marketing gets us hot?

carl strong shows what works for him: http://www.strongframes.com/webisode/

Marketing is for people afraid of failing.

Sissies.

[Z3c]

Dave,

Please understand that I did not mean to imply or infer anything about you specifically, in fact I admire your work. Sorry, I should not have named any name at all..

Scott

So I realize that you didn't intend to call me out here but since I'm named I'll respond.

First off every design gets signed off on before it's built which cuts way down on any chance that you won't get what you want/expect. This takes care of the vast majority of the potential issues such as the client getting their measurements wrong. If the body numbers provided to me say the bike should be a 64 x 52 with a 78* seat angle it doesn't just get built. Everything is gone over until it all makes sense......... body numbers, photos and/or video of the rider on their old bike, lots of questions and the such are all needed to get it just right. All these steps are taken as it's just too risky to do it any other way.

Given the above I have only had one person who wasn't happy with their frame when they got it. It was an issue with the color.......... they expected one thing and got another. A simple misunderstanding. So I took the bike back (at no cost to the client) and had it sprayed the color they really wanted and then they loved the bike. Yes I am in Montana which is far away from many clients but I have a phone and email and I am very responsive to both. In fact I've had only about 6-7 folks come to Bozeman over the years to get the personal treatment and every other transaction has been by phone and email. So there is no need to come here to make a purchase or to talk about an issue. I'm working with a client right now who is in Norway which is as far away as you can get I would guess and it's gone perfectly well......... to me it works just the same as if they were in the next town over.

Additionally....... if you pick your builder well and with consideration you won't end up with one that says "oh well" if there is an issue. Folks like myself simply don't say that and do everything humanly possible to avoid the situation that could lead to that. As a small business that sells stuff to folks who tend to spend a good bit of time online speaking their minds I simply can't tell folks to step off even if I wanted to. It's paramount that the customer be happy which means answering calls and emails, sharing the design process with them and being there after the sale if need be. That's just how it is.

I personally see it as no more risky than going to a shop an hoping you like what you get there. I've done the shop thing and seen things that would make your hair curl.

I'm out - send Richard a few bucks to help get Will D where he needs to be. Give the kid a hand.

later,

dave

[Dave Kirk]

Dave,

Please understand that I did not mean to imply or infer anything about you specifically, in fact I admire your work. Sorry, I should not have named any name at all..

Scott

I understand that. No worries. I had to give my point of view nonetheless.

later,

Dave

[Z3c]

All,

Just to double-clear the air, when I mentoned Dave Kirk previously, it was soley because he came to mind as someone who is located off the beaten path. I have never even had so much as a conversation with Dave so I certainly have had no issues with him. Dave, I apologize for mentioning your name.. Hopefully, if I am lucky enough to order a frame from you one day, you won't reject my order!

In my earlier posts, I was trying to relay the perspective of a consumer who is probably more versed(OCD) than the average buyer of frames yet still a consumer. I was not worried about the fact that the ordering process with Della Santa was simple; I thought it was great. I did not want/wish him to make something I wanted; I wanted and received what Roland makes. That was sort of my point; I don't think I presented very well.

Parlee has a much more formalized system of approved designs etc. That worked well for me also. But at the end of it all, I am confident in what fits me, partly because I am a fitter. The average consumer can look at a drawing of the proposed frame and it may not really mean much other than visually. I think that should be ok; as a consumer my expectation is that the builder will assess geo in terms of handling and do what needs to be done to make a frame that fits and handles like a (no brand specified) should. That is the whole point of buying a custom frame IMHO..

I think I will go Lurk in the corner now..

Scott

[Dave Kirk]

I think I will go Lurk in the corner now..

Scott

No need for any lurking... no harm - no foul.

I get a few different types of customers. Ones that know or feel they know what they need and those that have no clue. In both cases I present a design to them so they can ask questions if they like. Sometimes they don't know what questions to ask and other times they have lots of different questions. I feel it's my job to give them as much info as they want to to answer the inevitable questions that arise. I actually enjoy doing it really. I like explaining why something needs to be certain way or how trail is measured and why it's important. That sharing is fun for me and I can tell you that the best way to learn something and have it down cold it to teach it.

You know in the end I end up building the same thing for both types of clients. I build what I know will work and take no risks with that as my ass and reputation is on the line with every bike that goes into the Fed EX truck. The only difference really between the two type of clients is how much info is exchanged and how many questions are answered.

I think that just like the idea of their being two type of clients there are two type of builders. I think of them as bespoke builders and contract builders. The bespoke builder (my term - very British) gets all the info from the client and builds what they know from their experience will work best for that client. The builder picks the tubes and the geometry that they feel will work best.

Then there is the contract builder. The contract builder looks for the client to tell them what tubes and spec's they want the bike to be built with. This shifts the burden of the design from the builder to the client and also shifts the responsibility of the outcome. If the bike is too stiff or too soft of doesn't handle as it should then the client is in the hot seat. In many cases the contract builder has a shorter wait and is cheaper and the reason might be obvious - they do a lot less work. The contract builder asks what you want and then turns off the phone and goes to work. The bespoke builder on the other hand has much more design and communication work to do. In my case this takes maybe 1/3 of the time I budget for the entire process.

So you may have guessed that I think of myself as a bespoke builder. I want to know what the client wants and prefers but if I think they'd be better off going a different way then I that is what I tell them. I have nothing against the contract builder fwiw. I am just uncomfortable going that way as I know that the best results come from letting the builder determine design and build. If the client ends up knowing more than the builder then you've got issues.

Thanks for reading. Reading is FUNdamental.

Dave

[ashwa64]

hanging out on bike forums (fora) is somewhere on this list, right?

[swoop]

we're all marketing ourselves here. i don't make frames and i'm here marketing me.
we all market without even knowing it... just by engaging and seeking approval.
conversation was the first marketing strategy. hell, maybe its preverbal... the shape of a baby's face is the first marketing campaign.

[steve garro]

the shape of a baby's face is the first marketing campaign.

if they were all ugly, spiky, smelled bad and clawed and bit allot people would be less likely to want to stay up all night taking care of one........ just sayin', steve.

[Dave Kirk]

if they were all ugly, spiky, smelled bad and clawed and bit allot people would be less likely to want to stay up all night taking care of one........ just sayin', steve.

maybe they are ugly and we are just predisposed to think they are cute. It's all part of the lattice of coincidence.

dave

[swoop]

darwin is my marketing guru?

[Dave Kirk]

darwin is my marketing guru?

On the nose my friend. On the nose.

Dave

[maunahaole]

It's all part of the lattice of coincidence.

You mean like a plate of shrimp?