Peter Verdone Design

[GrantM]

Nah

we're not disagreeing on anything, and i never suggested that "super short" stays have any purpose on a longer FC bike.
Don't even really know why you responded to my earlier post, it doesn't relate to any point i was making.

Any of these discussions that dissect geo into bits completely misses the mark. It's about the whole.

-g

[andrew flowers]

we're not disagreeing on anything, and i never suggested that "super short" stays have any purpose on a longer FC bike.
Don't even really know why you responded to my earlier post, it doesn't relate to any point i was making.

Any of these discussions that dissect geo into bits completely misses the mark. It's about the whole.

-g

I agree

It makes things tough when we look at spec sheets

Reach is the hot number in modern mountain bikes

Two bikes at 470 reach will handle very differently with one a 73sta unsagged, and the other 77 degrees

Would be nice if more mtbers looked at something akin to the saddle nose to bar center roadies employ

[pvd]

Two bikes at 470 reach will handle very differently

This bike has a frame reach of 511mm and a handlebar reach of 477mm.

[andrew flowers]

This bike has a frame reach of 511mm and a handlebar reach of 477mm.

Very curious how it handles with the rear end so short

[dpcompt]

How do you slide the clamp off the bars?

[andrew flowers]

How do you slide the clamp off the bars?

If it’s anything like the canyons I’ve swapped shifters on you don’t. The canyon has a trick clamp system that will work with sram, shimano, and campy. I assume pvd just put the clamp on before bonding the bars

[pvd]

Very curious how it handles with the rear end so short

It's freakin' sick. So fast wherever.


It's not that short of a rear end. I just did a 29er with 410mm, that's short. Missed opportunities | Peter Verdone Designs

[WheelNut]

Quite interesting. I'm guessing the effective seat tube angle ends up around 73.5-74 degrees? How tall are you Peter?

[e-RICHIE]

Making Gravel Great Again.

Your text uses this as a leaping off point:

We need these for progressive all-road geometries

What are progressive all-road geometries?

[pvd]

I'm guessing the effective seat tube angle ends up around 73.5-74 degrees? How tall are you Peter?

I'm 5'10".
The effective seat tube angle is 74 degrees.
Saddle height is 745mm with 172.5mm crank arms.

[WheelNut]

That's why the mountain bike seat tube angle has been changed, modern geo bikes are steeper.
It's all interconnected, where the wheels are, and where you sit.

On a gravel bike, a dropper post (with no offset) effectively moves the saddle forward 2.5 degrees, (1 inch)
so the rear end may look short, but you're not sitting that far back.

-g

[Begin pedantic dissection of a discussion I'm not involved in] Andrew was stating that short chainstays don't work so well when descending, which according to some influential MTB geo thinkers is the truth (The Interview: Chris Porter - Pinkbike "Then with really short chainstays, lean back and there's a limit to how far you can go back before the thing loops out."). Seat tube angle has no bearing on descending on an MTB as your not on the saddle while descending. A longer rear center isn't really necessarily related to the steeper seat tube angle of modern bikes. The STA on a modern MTB is steep to aid in weight distribution when climbing. Also, the more gravity descent focused the bike the steeper the STA generally is as they are almost very cornered near the limit with the saddle up. Cross country bikes will have slightly slacker STAs as they do get corner near the limits with the saddle up. I would postulate a guess that no gravel bike should have an intended purpose that exceeds the capabilities of a XC MTB and would thus be ridden with the saddle up nearly all the time. So, then the question is can a long front center or long FC+RC drop bar bike start to encroach on the capabilities of an XC MTB while still providing an efficient and entertaining ride on gravel + asphalt?

[pvd]

...and would thus be ridden with the saddle up nearly all the time...

Hell no. Thats just wrong. Any bike that goes in the dirt should have a dropper. An aggressive urban bike should certainly have one. It's faster. It's safer. It's more fun.

[dpcompt]

That's a great design, NOT

[sk_tle]

Hell no. Thats just wrong. Any bike that goes in the dirt should have a dropper. An aggressive urban bike should certainly have one. It's faster. It's safer. It's more fun.

I don't think there is a universal definitions to "gravel riding". For some like me it involves trails were a cross country MTB would be more capable, for others it simply means crappy backroads with less traffic. A dropper would be superfluous on the latter.

[rabo]

I agree with Steve Tilfords (rip) comment, to "like a bike that is easy to ride no hands" .
Super short stays don't see to help this on the bikes I have . (6"5" length though).

[sparky33]

These comments are just pile-ons. Jeez. What if the thing rides great?

Agreed. Since when is it not OK to experiment?

Did I miss something somewhere?

[false_aesthetic]

What are progressive all-road geometries?

Skunkworks influenced jargon, bruh.
----

For what it's worth, I'm interested in the design, PVD. But I have a hard time making sense of a few things and I have a hard time figuring out how this bike would be a better option for events like Crusher, DK, Land Rush, etc. To my eye, it is in line with your other MTB designs (granted 2* steeper HTA and a shorter R-C than your Blackbird) and is a horse for a (rather) specific course.

Dropper posts for gravel rollers? Maybe not. Dropper posts for something like BWR, totes fer sure. But hey, the cool thing about droppers is that you don't have to use them.
~ 90mm trail for BWR? On some sections, totes. Others? Not so much.
R-C + ESTA look right on to me. I think it's just the front/rear balance that I'm not getting just yet -- the front end just seems like it'd be pretty unweighted for the way I'm used to riding.


Bruh, can you walk us through the decisions + thought process w/out the blog-based hyperbole?
I might be a roadie that needs rescuing but it'd sure save my ego if you explained things in a kind manner — similar to the way my 3rd grade teacher explained long division to me.
FWIW, I read the posts about pepe le pew (2017) and the romulan rockstar (2018).

[e-RICHIE]

What are progressive all-road geometries?

Skunkworks influenced jargon, bruh.
----

That doesn't answer my question.

[WFSTEKL]

I agree with Steve Tilfords (rip) comment, to "like a bike that is easy to ride no hands" .
Super short stays don't see to help this on the bikes I have . (6"5" length though).

This. I am amazed by how many "proper" machines need attention while riding no-handed. It is inexcusable. Every Zank I've had rolls with aplomb when I sit up. I can roll over potholes while rearranging the fruit bowl, biting heads off bats, and tearing through a snickers bar without a bother.

[pvd]

But hey, the cool thing about droppers is that you don't have to use them.

Non-expert mountain bikers have rarely mastered the use of dropper posts. Roadies have usually never even used one. It's a skill, like knowing how to use a front derailleur. I think this causes people problems in understanding them and their use.

Still, most people have never tested dropper on road or gravel. Why not give it a real test to see how they work? I have. Im informed by that.