Gas Stoves oh my

[thollandpe]

You make good points. However, if the stove is leaking natural gas when off then it isn't working properly. Natural gas is poisonous, which is why the utility injects a particular scent so people can detect leaks. The NYT article implies that a stove that leaks poisonous gas is somehow working as it should and "properly" as you say. Further, the NYT makes the important leap that such a defective condition cannot be engineered out of the product. That is simply nonsense.

The NYT also does not state the magnitude of the problem relative to other sources of natural gas leaking into the atmosphere. Or other carbon sources. If the stove doesn't leak when off, the effect of burning gas to make dinner is trivial to the total greenhouse gases. A back-of-the-napkin calc shows that one cross country flight spews more carbon per person than a year of the typical household making dinner. I would agree that in a perfect world everyone would use electric but we live in a world where costs count, and I suggest that society collectively spend its money in an efficient manner to stop the big sources first.

You also make some good point, but I don't think you're getting it. Those stoves are working as designed, and it's because they're not designed properly. Yeah we should make them better, but I can tell you that my experience with the energy efficiency of home appliances (refrigerators, which are often a home's biggest user of electricity) shows that a price difference of even tens of dollars is anathema to retailers and manufacturers. And I think we all know what stricter standards are in today's political climate, a non-starter, and in danger of repeal even if they do make it out of the gate. So hell yeah I think we can and should do better.



75% of emissions occur when the device is "off", that's unacceptable. But it's also reality.

One sentence from the study really gave me pause, "We quantified steady-state-off emissions from stoves because they were not included in most previous cooktop emissions studies and because, previously, we found steady-state-off emissions to be a substantial, sometimes dominant, component of total methane emissions from storage water heaters." So this is not an isolated problem.

And while I certainly won't contest your back-of-the-envelope calc for flying (you get an amen from this congregation), I'd like to share some numbers that show these emissions are not even remotely trivial.

From the study, annual unburned methane emissions from US gas stoves = 28,100 metric tonnes.
Global warming potential (GWP) of methane = 86.
Annual greenhouse gas emissions from that unburned gas = 2.4 millions metric tonnes equivalent carbon dioxide (MT eCO2).

That's the emissions from 525,000 "average" US passenger cars.

So fixing that is like doubling the gas mileage of a million cars. Or replacing two million of them with electric vehicles.

[9tubes]

Thanks for the good info. We would need to refine the calculations need to take into account:

- The emissions created by generating the electricity to power those new electric stoves

- The emissions created by disposing of or recycling the old gas stoves

- The emissions created by designing, manufacturing, distributing, shipping and selling those new electric stoves (including office space, warehouse space, retail space, clerks, additional trucks, miles driven, drivers, advertising, legal, accounting).

The proponents of the anti-gas stove movement have an odd premise. The premise is that America needs to ban gas stoves because although they could be designed and maintained to work properly, additional regulation will not work. So the solution is to create regulation to force people to throw away gas stoves (even properly functioning ones) and replace them with electric, which regulation will certainly work. I don't agree with the premise and the logic of that is curious.

The cost is spectacular. It's not just the $1000 electric stove (or $5000). It's the cost of adding the 50 amp circuit in metal conduit from the panel to the kitchen, then replacing drywall and repainting. In older homes that might include a few thousand for replacing, upgrading and rewiring the panel (especially since it's likely gas water heaters would also be on the chopping block, another 20 or 30 amp load, plus gas dryers, another 20 to 30 amp load) and perhaps replacing and upgrading the service line from the pole. Plus the cost of city permits and inspections. Let's be sure to include the emissions of all that contractor work into the above calculations, too.

Then we have the low-hanging fruit argument: would it be better for society to go after, say, the gas released from fracking or flame-off at wellheads?

[thollandpe]

The proponents of the anti-gas stove movement have an odd premise. The premise is that America needs to ban gas stoves because although they could be designed and maintained to work properly, additional regulation will not work. So the solution is to create regulation to force people to throw away gas stoves (even properly functioning ones) and replace them with electric, which regulation will certainly work. I don't agree with the premise and the logic of that is curious.

Did I miss something? Neither the NYT article linked by Jorn or the study (linked by me and the NYT article) suggests banning or throwing away working gas stoves. Or taking our gas ranges away instead of going after lower-hanging fruit. Lighten up, Francis.

Personally, I'd like to see the regulations enacted and enforced to make better gas stoves, to stop leaking unburned methane because that's all harm and no good (unlike cooking a hamburger). Ditto with water heaters and anything else that burns natural gas or propane, especially inside the confines of a residential building.

But no way I'd choose gas for a new house. Or a coal-fired pizza oven either.

[9tubes]

We certainly agree on the need to make gas stoves work properly and not leak when off. Then all the gas that is used will be burned completely and the nation will have most effective use of that 0.4% of natural gas that is used for cooking. Now turning to that other 96.6%...

[Too Tall]

By this time next yr. I'll have replaced our world ending gas stove with a induction unit. No doubt I'll be carping about something else as well ;)

Appreciate the conversations, we are better informed because of all y'all.

[Mark Kelly]

Natural gas is poisonous, which is why the utility injects a particular scent so people can detect leaks.

Natural gas is not poisonous in low concentrations eg from leaks*. It can however be explosive so the methanethiol is added so leaks become evident before they reach the explosive limit in air. Methanethiol itself is much more toxic than the natural gas but it is detectable in very, very low concentration.

Town gas was poisonous due to a high level of carbon monoxide, hence "putting your head in the oven" as a method of domestic suicide. It doesn't work any more. There's a story that went around that someone attempted this, got mildly nauseous, gave up and lit a cigarette and blew up the apartment. And he was suicidal before all that happened.

* Any gas is poisonous if present in high enough concentrations to replace air.

[jclay]

I just fired up my mocha pot and it occurred to me that if on an induction cooktop the coffee grounds would have been getting cooked whilst the water was heating up (if mine was magnetic SS anyway)!

A friend just installed and induction unit; I haven't seen anything cooked on it yet but he put a water filled pot on and uniformly distributed vessel material excitation, and even heating of contents, was pretty obvious; he cooks a lot and loves it.

I could dig an induction unit...with a couple of gas hobs off to the side.

Root problem wrt the larger environmental concern though? Too many peeps on the planet burning through resources but I can't imagine the gnashing of political and Godly teeth if that entered popular discussions. I'd hoped peak oil would be the population growth limiting externality, 'cause humans sure as hell won't voluntarily self limit; and then fracking came on line, etc. We're hooked on petrol crack.

Due to wife's concerns I ripped into the sheetrock (again...but this is the last time by gawd), installed a 50A circuit and a radiant cooktop. It's a heat source; I can live with it and since our "kitchen vent" is a 5,000 cfm whole house exhaust fan (directly above the kitchen, requiring several doors to be open; airflow-wise within the house think open like a tobacco barn or small aircraft hanger) we don't much use it for cooking. So, I set up a Coleman LP two burner on the porch for when I need/want gas (wok) or just don't want to heat the house and then pump the heat out with the AC. To do it over again I'd design a house a bit differently.

[Too Tall]

Cold fusion cooktops. You heard it here first.

XXOO

[jclay]

Cold fusion cooktops. You heard it here first.

XXOO

I was thinking more along the lines of grinding green beans, load the mocha pot, stick it on the induction unit and BAM; roasting and brewing in one EZ step! What could be more envirogreen than that? Now where's my Ginsu Knife?

[thollandpe]

I just fired up my mocha pot and it occurred to me that if on an induction cooktop the coffee grounds would have been getting cooked whilst the water was heating up (if mine was magnetic SS anyway)!

A friend just installed and induction unit; I haven't seen anything cooked on it yet but he put a water filled pot on and uniformly distributed vessel material excitation, and even heating of contents, was pretty obvious; he cooks a lot and loves it.

I could dig an induction unit...with a couple of gas hobs off to the side.

Root problem wrt the larger environmental concern though? Too many peeps on the planet burning through resources but I can't imagine the gnashing of political and Godly teeth if that entered popular discussions. I'd hoped peak oil would be the population growth limiting externality, 'cause humans sure as hell won't voluntarily self limit; and then fracking came on line, etc. We're hooked on petrol crack.

Due to wife's concerns I ripped into the sheetrock (again...but this is the last time by gawd), installed a 50A circuit and a radiant cooktop. It's a heat source; I can live with it and since our "kitchen vent" is a 5,000 cfm whole house exhaust fan (directly above the kitchen, requiring several doors to be open; airflow-wise within the house think open like a tobacco barn or small aircraft hanger) we don't much use it for cooking. So, I set up a Coleman LP two burner on the porch for when I need/want gas (wok) or just don't want to heat the house and then pump the heat out with the AC. To do it over again I'd design a house a bit differently.

Why not get a portable Duxtop induction burner to try it out?

My Moka pot is aluminum so I’d have to put it in on a big-ass washer to work. I doubt that even if the funnel and filter were ferritic stainless that they’d heat up much. The filter is pretty far away, and the funnel isn’t parallel with the coil in the cooktop. Don’t mean to be harshing your mellow, bud.

PS For the range hood, 150 cfm per lineal foot of cooktop is plenty. 375 cfm for a 30” range. Use side skirts if you want better performance.

[Too Tall]

Geeze Professor Todd, way to burst the man's bubble ;)

Fair point, I've used a protable Duxtop induction burner for a few years both in the RV and counter top. Neat piece of tech. that I'm really glad to have.

[Scott G.]

Cold fusion cooktops. You heard it here first.

XXOO

I prefer Mr. Fusion, #1 in the multiverse.

DeLorean_DMC-12_Time_Machine_-_Mr._Fusion.jpg

[jclay]

Why not get a portable Duxtop induction burner to try it out?

My Moka pot is aluminum so I’d have to put it in on a big-ass washer to work. I doubt that even if the funnel and filter were ferritic stainless that they’d heat up much. The filter is pretty far away, and the funnel isn’t parallel with the coil in the cooktop. Don’t mean to be harshing your mellow, bud.

PS For the range hood, 150 cfm per lineal foot of cooktop is plenty. 375 cfm for a 30” range. Use side skirts if you want better performance.

Not feeling harshed. Rather mellow, if tired after two hours drum kit practice and 1.5 on bass guitar; it's fatiguing my brain and body.

My buddy has one I can borrow but I don't doubt it works; I went cheap with a radiant 'cause I reserved the right, and thought I would probably exercise it, to have an insurrection and put the LP unit back in! Radiant was a fraction of the cost of induction. As it happens...I prefer gas and I do most all the cooking but...it's a heat source; you learn the idiosyncrasies, the imperfections, and run with it. I'm OK with it....but I kept the gas unit.

I don't know about your funnel/filter unit comment; the bottom is parallel and is excitation limited to parallel? Hadn't really thought about the physics...or better still, looked at a cheat sheet.

Putting a hood in would get vetoed; the whole kitchen is open to the living/dining room, ceiling tops out at 16 or 17'. We'd have Pompidou Centre ductwork exposed. Only other option is a hi-flow intake behind the cooktop, ducted down through some cabinets, into the crawlspace, out the side; plus a makeup air intake somewhere. BIG PITA and some significant $$. I can struggle along with the electric.

What I might do, well already have in terms of a bare bones version, is a small but fully equipped summer kitchen on an adjacent porch, which is a super duper idea down here where it's hotter'n hell. If I just added a sink and a little bit of cabinet storage to what I've already setup it would be ducky; and I wouldn't be heating the crap out of the house and then saddling the AC with pumping it out.

[randonneur]

I have a cheap induction burner which lives out on the deck. I use it when deep frying or browning meats or anything which would otherwise totally smoke out the house. It works amazing. If I ever have to buy a new stove, an induction unit will definitely be in the running.

They sell these things now too. No idea how well they work though.
https://www.amazon.com/9-45inch-Indu...J9/ref=sr_1_36

[Mark Kelly]

I just fired up my mocha pot and it occurred to me that if on an induction cooktop the coffee grounds would have been getting cooked whilst the water was heating up (if mine was magnetic SS anyway)!

.

That's not how induction stoves work.

They will only heat the bottom part of the pot: the magnetic field intensity declines as the cube of the distance from the coil and in any case the water in the bottom of the pot will cool the walls.

Also the material being heated does not need to be ferromagnetic: eddy currents will be induced in any conductive material. Aluminum and copper work badly because they are too conductive, not because they aren't ferromagnetic.

Induction pads work less well than does an induction ready pot. With the pad, the stove heats the pad which then heats the pot so you lose the immediacy of control of using a suitable vessel directly.

[COVRTDESIGN]

The latest suburban bad news that will cause all VS cooks to run screaming from their home is that gas stoves are the devil incarnate. Given no gas leaks and liberal use of the vent I'm quite ready to kick old fateful to the curb.

Induction stoves leave me uninspired but they make a ton of sense.

I LOVE induction stoves and flat tops!! During private events, I could use them, on the clients power, all night long and didn't have to carry a large toolbox of just gas cans.