consumers: how much does frame price influence your initial thoughts on quality

[swoop]

i'm channeling.

[Tom Kellogg]

part of this board's raison d'etre is the honest and transparent exchange
of dialogue between career builders. so, as far as the above factoid goes,
i kinda' sorta' gotta ask - why not atmo?

For me, it all comes down to guilt. I have always had a lot of trouble raising our prices, at least up until that time when I have to, to keep the doors open. Logical and reasoned? Nope. Just a result of guilt. So ... at least I can keep the increases a little lower if I don't get a raise. Ultimately, pretty stupid though. At least it does not make me love my work any less.

[Z3c]

this sounds like FM radio atmo.

Better yet, it sounds like Delilah(syndicated, mind numbing Oprah wannabe) on FM..

Scott

[DCT]

masters like sachs, etc should be charging at least 6,000 for a f/f

why? they fawkin deserve it

[e-RICHIE]

For me, it all comes down to guilt. I have always had a lot of trouble raising our prices, at least up until that time when I have to, to keep the doors open. Logical and reasoned? Nope. Just a result of guilt. So ... at least I can keep the increases a little lower if I don't get a raise. Ultimately, pretty stupid though. At least it does not make me love my work any less.

thanks -
i love my work. most of us do. we do it for ourselves much moreso
than we do it for our clients atmo. read. having said that, our clients
don't mind charging for their services, and i'm advocating that we
should feel similarly.

[davids]

Punchline here is that we are trying to rationlize behavior/decisions that are not rooted in being rational. If we were all trying to buy the cheapest bike that meets our performance requirements, the choices made would be different. Thankfully, we are allowed to make up our own minds. For some, there is tremendous value in bang for the buck; for others that is not a driving factor. Who cares? There are enough folks in all of the demographics to make it work for everyone. Sachs closed his list and Spooky sells 500 frames a year. IMHO, that tells me that they are both "right".
I don't understand the condemnation of the big Mfg's though; you would probably not be able to sell 500 frames if Giant/S/Trek didn't sponsor teams and create the interest they do. You won't find their stuff in my garage but I will say I think they make great bikes that get people riding. Get off the supposedly patriotic bandwagen; that kind of thinking is what causes our economic decline. Don't judge foreign labor practices; your perception of "fair" does not apply elsewhere.

Rodney King said it so well..

Scott

Good post. The "irrational" portion of the purchase decision is no different here than with a car or a house or a sofa. There's nothing exotic or weird about it - There's more than strict functionalism in lots of our consumerista decisions.

p.s. I love my Stumpjumper FSR. Specialized can make a hell of a bike. But I love it for different reasons than my Pegoretti.

[davids]

David,
We just make frames. We sweat the most on keeping the price as low as possible, and the performance as high as possible. It's why our production stuff is 6061. Absolutely the best bang for the buck. In fact, the best bang period. What we do at Spooky is very different from Cocconio, Sachs or Desalvo. We can and do love doing small custom jobs, or limited production steel stuff, but my overall focus is building bikes for racers that they can actually afford. I fetish-ize beautiful bike gear as much or more than anyone... But in the grand scheme of things, we sell ~500 frames a year to stay afloat, and with that size comes an increased economy of scale that allows us to make great stock bikes more available at a lower price...

Never having paid retail doesn't mean I am deaf, dumb and blind. Except for a 6 month period, I've never had a job in my life that wasn't keyed into selling bikes through retail channels. Our pricing structure is setup such that retailers get a really healthy retail margin, and more importantly to me, a really good employee purchase program.
We sell our frames for a margin that is high enough for us to keep the lights on, support racing as much as possible, and put more time, tech and sweat into continued development.

Our production 6061 bikes are built in Oregon, by Union labor in an ISO certified shop. The bauxite comes from canada, is refined in Washington and the tubes are drawn on site to my specifications. We have a 2 pound road frame that is both stronger in ultimate fatigue and impact than most anything else in it's weight class, and made using domestic materials, fairly paid workers and the utmost, highest possible quality. The fact that it is less than a 1/3rd of the cost of some comparable frames, to me is a selling feature.

There are no compromises anywhere. A full rival build kit, with handlaced wheels and an Edge fork is $2600. It weighs under 17 pounds with pedals. That is competitive enough with Specialzed or Giant for me. I said right up there in the first aspect of my post, or it least it should have scanned as such, We aim for the big companies with the frames we can, and for things we build custom or 5 at a time, we obviously end up charging the same amount as anyone else who builds custom bikes.

Does it bother me that lots of generic taiwanese carbon junk is perceived as "better" by un-informed consumers? I think that it's totally rad. It makes the consumers who are in the know and "get it" a little more likely to loosen their purse strings for something beautiful and of real value. You could buy 2 of our cross frame and forks for one Scott Addict CX, or a frame from Spooky, and most of a Planet 'Cross.

If I was pulling in the sort of money people who work outside of the bike industry does, I'd be spending an easy $10K a year buying some of the really special artisianly made stuff out there... It's beautiful, and it makes me happy in a way that isn't about consumerism, but about interpersonal connections and shared beliefs...

I'm not OK with $7k Sworks bikes, Chinese frames being sold at Italian prices and other crap like that. But $3-4K for a custom built frame and fork, imbued with personality, love and craft? That, i love...

Thanks for the response. This makes lots of sense to me. Good luck to you and Spooky.

[Dave Kirk]

I charge what I charge for a variety of reasons.


* I charge enough so that I can spend as much time with the customer as need be so they feel part of the process and enjoy themselves.

* I charge enough so that I can afford to keep doing this in the long run and to be able to give the customer top notch after the sale service and if necessary top notch warrantee work years down the road.

* I charge enough so that I can use the best materials that I feel money can buy and to put the best paint on it.

* I charge enough so that I can afford to take all the time necessary to make the bike just so and to never look at the clock and think "I've been working on this for too long - I should call it a day and ship it" even though I feel it could use a bit more love. I want every bike I make to be my best and doing your best takes time and time costs money.

* I feel that after thousands of frames and nearly 20 years I've learned things that many other builders don't know and that that knowledge, and the bike that result from it, are worth what I charge.

* I charge what I charge so that I can afford to make a reasonable living... To save a bit toward retirement someday...... to not need to work 80 hours a week to put food on the table......... to be able to take a vacation every once in a while. If the market won't bear that cost and I can't afford to make it all work then I'll do something else. Life is too short to work 24/7. I absolutely love the work but I also love time out on the bike, time with the Lovely Karin, time tinkering with my toy car and the occasional nap. There needs to be a balance IMO. If the market won't bear that balance and the phone stops ringing I'll have to do something else.

* As odd as it might sound I really don't know much about what my competition charges. My pricing is based on my work, my knowledge and my time. If someone else with similar skills is willing to work more hours for less money I'm not willing to get pulled down with them. We all make our own choices - both the builder and the client.

I hope that makes sense.

Dave

[swoop]

Better yet, it sounds like Delilah(syndicated, mind numbing Oprah wannabe) on FM..

Scott

if i only listened to radio i'd know the reference. i think we're all missing the issue... and the issue is process. it means something that sachs closed the books to new customers, that mariposa closed shop, that these guys are from a moment in time and when you buy you're voting for a process, that dario and zullo are the last of the guys that didn't become huge corporations and still fabricate like they did 20 years ago.
i just hope enough new guys bubble up and feel fulfilled and engaged enough and have a chance to get really good, and then to be able to close the books at 50 or 60 having progressed the whole time.
the spooky thing is interesting because it mirrors what another young friend of mine is doing (predator bikes).. and that's being young in the industry, building handmade bikes, but having someone else do the fabricating remotely...and considering themselves a part of the same process as the handmade guys... rather than a cousin of the mass production process. not that there's anything wrong with that.. its just a different path and a different fold.

i'm certainly enjoying being forced to think about it. and part of that thought is realizing how good some mass manufactured bikes are out of the box too... but still how they aren't what you get when its not mass produced.

i come from fine arts, where price and value are determined by consensus at auction. that's where my views come from. and they come from being a shrink and limiting myself to seeing 20 patients a week and having to charge affordable rates in order to get the work done yet not so low that the work is devalued. it seems to parallel the discussion we're having.

to address the initial question. i associate price with value, and quality with quality. i never confuse price for quality... but i can see where a price makes sense, or over-values, or undervalues... but scarcity and desire factor in too.

[Tom Kellogg]

thoughtful... I am really in two camps in this. Our steel frame sets are entirely in house, soup to nuts. Jeff does most of the building and I do all of the design and paint work. For us, titanium is quite different. Even though I do all the design and paint work, Merlin does all of the fabrication in their custom shop. We don't see the frame until it arrives here in a raw but fully fabricated condition. We don't make the carbon forks either. We just order the appropriate ones from Reynolds, Edge, AlphaQ or WoundUP (sometimes we steel forks for them ourselves). Granted, the most titanium frame sets we will ship in a year is about 55, but they still don't feel the same to us as our steel frames. I prefer riding titanium, but I feel much "closer" to our steel frames. I believe that it is the soup to nuts thing. Every little bit of each of them is our doing. It just means more emotionally.

[swoop]

tom... its funny because i don't see that process as being less good or derivative. its just different. i don't think folks perceive a ti spectrum as being less than or removed from a steel spectrum, do you?
i don't think a ti spectrum is less a kellogg work than a steel one no matter who stapled it together with magic flames.
i think it's really just the business owner's personal choice.

but it is a different leaf on the same branch and i wonder if the other leaves are all going to fall of the tree? or if it even matters?

does the distinction matter?

[Chance Legstrong]

but it is a different leaf on the same branch and i wonder if the other leaves are all going to fall of the tree? or if it even matters?

does the distinction matter?

after reading Tom's explanation of the soup to nuts with his steel bikes...it does now. (for me)

[GrantM]

* I charge what I charge so that I can afford to make a reasonable living... To save a bit toward retirement someday...... to not need to work 80 hours a week to put food on the table......... to be able to take a vacation every once in a while. If the market won't bear that cost and I can't afford to make it all work then I'll do something else. Life is too short to work 24/7. I absolutely love the work but I also love time out on the bike, time with the Lovely Karin, time tinkering with my toy car and the occasional nap. There needs to be a balance IMO. If the market won't bear that balance and the phone stops ringing I'll have to do something else.

* As odd as it might sound I really don't know much about what my competition charges. My pricing is based on my work, my knowledge and my time. If someone else with similar skills is willing to work more hours for less money I'm not willing to get pulled down with them. We all make our own choices - both the builder and the client.

I hope that makes sense.

Dave

It makes lots sense!
I think you're really only in competition with yourself, primarily.
I believe most small framebuilders are "successful" when they make a product that
their customers want... as in " I want one of those!"... not need. If I need a bike,
there is the LBS. It seems the builders with the waiting lists have figured this out.
If the client is willing to wait, there has to be some reason they're not thumbing through
the interweb looking for another choice. Custom builders create their customers by
the process of their work, and to a certain extent, their personality.

Finally, I don't see a lot of builders living the high life. And why not? Highly skilled
craftspersons should be able to make a great living with what they offer...
(same goes for retailers). Everyone must love what they're doing, lets hope we're
all learning, and getting better at the biz side of things, as well at the skill.

-g

[Too Tall]

When a builder has total control over fabrication and design process it does not matter one bit if the materials were welded by his/her hand infact we've talked and kibbitzed in positive ways over this before (DeSalvo, Dario). A Ti Spectrum ,for instance, is 110% T.K. and I think he does not charge enough. There I said it.

[Z3c]

after reading Tom's explanation of the soup to nuts with his steel bikes...it does now. (for me)

Me too..

[Tom Byrnes]

Steve Garro started this thread asking: "How much does frame price influence your initial thoughts on quality and why?"

As a purchaser of at least a few custom bikes, my answer is: "Not at all." I form my opinions and thoughts about the quality of a bike frame primarily from: (1) my personal experience with a frame and/or the custom builder; and (2) with the knowledge and information about a builder and/or his/her bikes that I obtain from others that I respect, including many people who frequent this Salon and the Serotta Forum.

The price of a frame may have a bearing on my decision whether to purchase a frame, but, to me, the price is irrelevant and says nothing to me about its quality.

Tom

[Z3c]

Oh sure, provide a nice, concise answer the question that was asked... Next thing we'll be back on-topic with this thread.

Some people have a lot of nerve..

Scott

Steve Garro started this thread asking: "How much does frame price influence your initial thoughts on quality and why?"

As a purchaser of at least a few custom bikes, my answer is: "Not at all." I form my opinions and thoughts about the quality of a bike frame primarily from: (1) my personal experience with a frame and/or the custom builder; and (2) with the knowledge and information about a builder and/or his/her bikes that I obtain from others that I respect, including many people who frequent this Salon and the Serotta Forum.

The price of a frame may have a bearing on my decision whether to purchase a frame, but, to me, the price is irrelevant and says nothing to me about its quality.

Tom

[Tom Kellogg]

tom... its funny because i don't see that process as being less good or derivative. its just different. i don't think folks perceive a ti spectrum as being less than or removed from a steel spectrum, do you?
i don't think a ti spectrum is less a kellogg work than a steel one no matter who stapled it together with magic flames.
i think it's really just the business owner's personal choice.

but it is a different leaf on the same branch and i wonder if the other leaves are all going to fall of the tree? or if it even matters?

does the distinction matter?

As far as the actual product goes, it matters not a bit. My having Merlin fabricate our Ti frames makes those frames better than if I was doing it myself. Having said that, I still feel more connected to our steel frames. But that is only natural. Note again though that I ride titanium. And this all has a bearing on pricing in the end. But do our prices have an effect on perceived quality? I hope not. We, along with most of the other builders here make the best frames we can no matter what. The price is the price and the quality is the best each of us can do. Thanks for the discussion.

[e-RICHIE]

We, along with most of the other builders here make the best frames we can no matter what.

that says it all, and any framebuilder who doesn't
use tom's words as an example - should atmo.

Thanks for the discussion.

you're welcome. all of you added immensely to this subject.
and garro-san, great thread you started. really atmo.

since all the bases are covered and we are starting to repeat
some of it, i'll lock this one and hope that the telai-ista board
continues as well as it has started.

thanks atmo.