Peter Verdone Design

[pvd]

if you explained things in a kind manner...

As I've written at length on these topics on my site, let's reverse this. Can you answer this:

Why do people ride road bikes that are far too short for their size?
Why do road bikes have such long stems?
Why are "gravel bikes" just crit bikes with fat tires?
Why don't gravel bikes have bent seat tubes?
Why would someone use a 650b wheel when they could use a 700c wheel?

I do know the answers to these questions. I also know that most people dont.

[TTX1]

If the design solves a problem, it gets adopted and looks normal in no time.

Form Follows Friction.

[pvd]

For what it's worth, I'm interested

I've also found that if folks are interested in understanding how bicycle geometry works, they need to start producing measured drawings of their bikes. Proper 2D prints at least. Using prints like this, over time, is invaluable to understanding the topic on ones own. People like to discuss geometry but few do the actual measuring over and over that it takes to learn. Start there.

[Lionel]

As I've written at length on these topics on my site, let's reverse this. Can you answer this:

Why do people ride road bikes that are far too short for their size?
Why do road bikes have such long stems?
Why are "gravel bikes" just crit bikes with fat tires?
Why don't gravel bikes have bent seat tubes?
Why would someone use a 650b wheel when they could use a 700c wheel?

I do know the answers to these questions. I also know that most people dont.

I have not contributed in a while but it looks like this thread can be a gem.

[mzilliox]

I have not contributed in a while but it looks like this thread can be a gem.

Id like to hear the take on all of those answers... i dont think some of them have a "right" answer
the bike is roughly my size, same seat height etc. Id try it out.

[Matthew Strongin]

Id like to hear the take on all of those answers... i dont think some of them have a "right" answer
the bike is roughly my size, same seat height etc. Id try it out.

I think many of us would like his take on those questions. But he keeps positioning himself as having the answers but is unwilling to actually share his thoughts outside of clickbait to his blog. It could make for a really interesting discussion here in this thread, but we have to get past the "I have the answers and it's on you if you don't" type of response.

[pvd]

..outside of clickbait to his blog.

The problem is that few people have a basic understanding of bicycle design and setup. It's hard to have a discussion with these folks because they don't know the basics. If they were to read what has need posted on the subject and did some light homework then a discussion could be had.

[zachateseverything]

I've also found that if folks are interested in understanding how bicycle geometry works, they need to start producing measured drawings of their bikes. Proper 2D prints at least. Using prints like this, over time, is invaluable to understanding the topic on ones own. People like to discuss geometry but few do the actual measuring over and over that it takes to learn. Start there.

I'll get out the paper and t-square then.

[Matthew Strongin]

The problem is that few people have a basic understanding of bicycle design and setup. It's hard to have a discussion with these folks because they don't know the basics. If they were to read what has need posted on the subject and did some light homework then a discussion could be had.

Why not give it a shot. You might be surprised how much people here know about bicycle design and setup.

[zachateseverything]

I think many of us would like his take on those questions. But he keeps positioning himself as having the answers but is unwilling to actually share his thoughts outside of clickbait to his blog. It could make for a really interesting discussion here in this thread, but we have to get past the "I have the answers and it's on you if you don't" type of response.

a quick perusal of his blog indicates that it isn't much different from his posts here: overly wrought prose that manages to still not say much of anything substantial, an inability to consider that opinions other than his own can still be valid, and hand-wavy nonsense being asserted as "science" or "design work."

[Lionel]

Id like to hear the take on all of those answers... i dont think some of them have a "right" answer
the bike is roughly my size, same seat height etc. Id try it out.

I can comment on the color at least

[WayneJ]

pvd,

If you have true intentions to design something better and share your discoveries with the forum population, I suggest you establish a Smoked Out post. Start with an introduction, open questions up to the forum and let the conversation flow. Consider it an opportunity to teach, to share and to engage, and possibly even change a few peoples minds.

[claritycycler]

pvd,

If you have true intentions to design something better and share your discoveries with the forum population, I suggest you establish a Smoked Out post. Start with an introduction, open questions up to the forum and let the conversation flow. Consider it an opportunity to teach, to share and to engage, and possibly even change a few peoples minds.

Great idea! You in Peter?

[mzilliox]

fuck it... ill demonstrate my lack of expertise. im an enthusiast, not an expert. i ride bikes, i dont build them.

Why do people ride road bikes that are far too short for their size? some do and some dont, different strokes. some folks on "too short" bikes most likely tried "the right size" and went back to "too short" because of these odd things we all have and call preferences. I started my cycling on too large of bikes, stuff in the 56 tt realm. Tried it with 80-110mm stems. always felt like i was trying to fit on my dads bike and it was just a hair large. then i tried 54s, because thats the normal jump down. too much toe overlap, but i preferred the way i could handle the bike. now im on something closer to a 55, and i have owned perhaps a dozen bikes around that size, settling on 2 i like the most that have very similar geometries. didnt go to a fitter or faux expert, or real expert or however you like to define experts. just trial and error over years and some critical thinking skills, some tinkering, of course not at your level though. obviously, since i dont do drawings.
Why do road bikes have such long stems? define "such long"... anything under 80mm feels silly in the steering to me. i know a guy who rode bikes for 40 years, engineer, smart guy, faster than most, said the right size stem is always 100mm. what does he know? hes only had everyone build him bikes. Modified part for years, tinkered to make them work for his uses. nothing i guess.

Why are "gravel bikes" just crit bikes with fat tires? Perhaps that is your take from NAHBS this last year, since that is what most builders showed, but i dont think this is something you can generalize. To be fair, i wondered at the same thing. All the builders showed the exact same bike. A road bike with 420ish stays and clearance for 40mm 700c tires, like anyone wants ride that tall of a tire...
Why are people winning gravel races on fat tire crit bikes and not dropper studded modified mountain bikes? why do i own 2 totally different gravel bikes?? why aren't either of them crit bikes with fat tires since that is what you see everywhere?

Why don't gravel bikes have bent seat tubes? your mountain bike background gives you a bias. why does any bike need a bent seat tube? wheel clearances? getting the seat in the correct position? what problem are we trying to solve? im ignorant here and find the ability to lessen my ignorance on this topic minimal.

Why would someone use a 650b wheel when they could use a 700c wheel?
volume to circumference, preferences (these silly things again), whats on hand, frame size, I dont like 650b much, i dont like anything over 700c 36mm either. i get no extra benefit from this for my riding.

your riding and preferences are obviously not the same as roadies. i took a long while reading some of these blog articles that supposedly have all the answers, but they dont. you post on curved seat tubes, but offer no whys, just how clever it was to have a special jig made for your pet project.

maybe you are an expert, maybe you are onto something, but man, your delivery of information as a human being could use as much work as the average consumer's knowledge of bike geometry. right tools for the job, efficiency, and all of that.

have fun with this,
you dont have to burn the world down, its so much bigger than you

[VertigoCycles]

As I've written at length on these topics on my site, let's reverse this. Can you answer this:

Why do people ride road bikes that are far too short for their size?
Why do road bikes have such long stems?
Why are "gravel bikes" just crit bikes with fat tires?
Why don't gravel bikes have bent seat tubes?
Why would someone use a 650b wheel when they could use a 700c wheel?

I do know the answers to these questions. I also know that most people dont.

Pete,

You have some qualities that I respect. Unfortunately, this post is illustrative of qualities that I do not respect. You've made assertions like this time and time again across various forums, where you say that you're the only one who understands, your experience dictates this and you make a list of claims or questions while adding no insight or value and then tell everyone else to go do the research to back up your claims. My experience of being a human amongst other humans in this world is that when you make outrageous claims, you're the one who needs to back them up.

At some point I think you (or perhaps every other web-forum perusing human behind a keyboard who is considering interacting with you) need to come to terms with what I truly believe is just attention seeking behavior. I don't think you're here to share your insights, you're certainly not here to help educate people, you just want to throw a rock at a hornet nest of your own creation and them come back to kick it every once in a while. I've tried to respectfully engage with you in the past as I believe that I have the background, experience and knowledge to have an intelligent discussion about the many instances where I disagree with your design choices, but you usually don't engage in a meaningful way. I'm also perfectly happy to believe that you love these bikes you're building, there's nothing wrong with that at all but they're definitely on the fringe and it doesn't mean that you know something that others don't, it just means you have different priorities and a different perspective.

This place is one of the last respectable bike oriented forums that I'm aware of. Frankly, I feel that you're bringing it down when you could instead add something interesting and productive. I enjoyed hanging out with you way back in Austin or Sacramento or wherever that was and I wish that your internet persona was as well reasoned as I found you to be in person and I think everyone here would appreciate it as well.

And hey, I'm going to be in Aptos in a few weeks. We should ride and chat about bikes.

[e-RICHIE]

I'm also perfectly happy to believe that you love these bikes you're building, there's nothing wrong with that at all but they're definitely on the fringe and it doesn't mean that you know something that others don't, it just means you have different priorities and a different perspective.

Thank you Sean.

This says it all.

Peter wants to promote something, even it's just his attention seeking tendencies. If he's interested in doing this, he can PM me and we'll start a dedicated thread that he can create and steer. For that, we'd need to reset his posting permissions for the Frame Forum.

Until then, enjoy the day.

[WheelNut]

Hell no. Thats just wrong. Any bike that goes in the dirt should have a dropper. An aggressive urban bike should certainly have one. It's faster. It's safer. It's more fun.

I agree with you. That's why I used the word "nearly" not always.

[joosttx]

Peter,

Where would this bike shine and where would it be weak on an all road route like.... BoFax Rd up the hill from Fairfax, down to alpine dam, up to Ridgecrest Blvd >> Bolinas Ridge Fire Road >> SFD up and over whites hill to Fairfax?

[colker]

Nah

Seat tube is for climbing

With the dropper down sta doesn’t matter. If you run super short stays and a long front end the bike is out of whack descending very steep terrain with the body position changes that dictates

You lean further forward going downhill on the new bikes, and the lengthened chain stays help keep you balanced in that new position. 420 stays and shorter were for the frames of yesteryear

Yes. Best technical trail bike in my garage has 26in wheels, longer 17.25in chainstays, tall bb and short front center w/ steep head angle. The front is quick and i chose lines easily but the longer stays keep me from endo. Longer stays also hook the rear tire on slippery steep climbs.

[rabo]

Every mile of a mixed surface ride there is a different bike that would be optimal.
Give me the bike that is optimal most of the time.
Short of MTB I can see that Seven being my only ride, road included.

To answer one of the questions: 650 wheel is stronger -and lighter than a 700 wheel , the 26 wheel even more so.
So cool to see the grunge offroad tourers picking up all the old stuff that flat out works.