Framebuilder or production line worker

[e-RICHIE]

And he was a home brewer.
And he still owns the company. Has not sold out to the big conglomerates.

This post seems like it's hanging out in space.
To whom, or what, are you replying?

[Curt Goodrich]

The line I worked on still exists.

I sometimes get the feeling that people wish for frame shops close to them so they could walk down and get a job. I don't know that it's ever been that way. If you wanted a job at Raleigh back in the day you moved to Nottingham. Same today- if you want a job frame building company you apply and (if you get it) move there. Where I worked they turned down many more people then they hired- they WANTED people with integrity and critical thinking skills that would work for the benefit of the company. They rewarded versatile employees, and if you only wanted to work in your station you wouldn't make it long.

I'm not claiming this is the only path to entry, but how many of the US guys packed it up and went abroad in the 70's? I don't know that it's changed so much as we are misremembering how it was.

I know builders that make great bikes that did it differently, of course, but it's "still" a way.

I agree that these opportunities still exist. I moved across half the country to work in the biz and it was not easy. Still I'd do it over in a heart beat. Just like I moved away from home to go to college. I didn't think higher ed. opportunities weren't available because there wasn't a college or university in my home town.

[Amaro Bikes]

I guess if the "framebuilding" was considered by someone as a proper career or similar, it would not be a problem to find the right place where to learn it properly, same as happens with universities or any of the various other jobs/careers/etc.

Even when considering out of the common path activities as Richard named Luthiers, or many other cases (fashion, etc), no one would consider strange if needing to move yourslef to another country if it's needed to assist to one of the few chances you have to learn it.

Problem might be that even those dreaming bout becoming framebuilders do not consider it as a proper career but more as some kind of fancy activity to learn by yourself and related just with creativity or simply because you love to ride your bike. Then it's the face to face with real situation where no one is going to teach you in a couple fo weeks how to do something which needs years of practice to begin getting the deep knowledge needed to move forward into the real thing. And here is where many "week courses" appear as candy temptations, so you can start seeing it all done with just 10 days of "school". Great help indeed to avoid first step mistakes, but definetly nothing to do with being ready to sell bikes nor even building them properly for yourself.

What happens then? Obviously if there's not any university or proper studies about it where to become something related with reality of the business, is definetly because there might not be enough demand on the real world for this kind of bicycles, no matter how hard we try to convince ourselves that the handmade bike trade is huge and enough to feed all the "framebuilders" out there with no more incomes than their frames. Some of them will manage to do so, those are the real cats, most of the rest will struggle just to keep building frames without losing money, and another big unch of it will fade after a couple of years of the face to face between dreams and reality.

so, framebuilding certificates? personal lessons? homologated studies? too utopic today (maybe in the future...), so whoever migth be considering going to the "framebuilding" question, would better get first into all previous experiences, go trhough them, deeply, trying to see all the lessons involved and so wonderfully available for anyone thanks to the incredibly generous spirit of the big cats around here who are willing to share with all of us poor mouses all their backgrounds to learn from. Then try to see if it might make sense to go for it, and do it the best possible way so to avoid any of the well explained mistakes we could be doing if trying to be framebuilders to fast.

Finally, this theoretical framebuilder certificate will be too easy to find out, whoever manage to keep themselves doing so during time, obviously will mean that somehow they've managed to deal with the complexity of it, not just the technical question of building sound frames, but also building them with an appealing touch to others, making it work as a business with accounts and marketing and customer service and so on.

But hey, the ultimate test would be having to deal with profesional fitters requests... :o

Cheers

[Mike Mcdermid]

I guess if the "framebuilding" was considered by someone as a proper career or similar, it would not be a problem to find the right place where to learn it properly, same as happens with universities or any of the various other jobs/careers/etc.

This is true of fabrication and engineering in general I've lost count of the number of engineering universities with very low entrance figures and even worse vocational craft skills are almost non existant, there are not enough skilled workers for many trades in the UK think toolmakers etc and I fear when some consider a career to get themselves onto a talent TV show and see if they can get a recording contract the hope is non existant

A lot of this is reputation some have 5 year waiting lists so it doesn't matter to them either way

i see kids making carbon bonnets for their cars its the fashion

[Amaro Bikes]

But reputation is not a free gift, I don't know any reputed builder without more frames on their belts than most of us won't be able to reach in our entire lifes, twice.
As I've said some times before, problem is that nowadays we all want to gain reputation and waiting lists with just a couple of instagrams and a nice paintwork, forgetting about how many endlessly lonely workbench hours are needed to build up a first sketch of each one's own figure into whatever framebuilding is.

About formation, the thing is that almost anyone wanting to be framebuilder (I'm starting to hate the word...) would complain about no chances to learn anywhere, but not even considering that this might not be true, but simply requiring some big decission, leaving everything behind, even your country, and be ready to spend at least 5 years of your life without nothing more in your future than full dedication practice and learning days, as you would actually do if decide to become any other "standard" career.

If becoming a framebuilder would be a question of joining a regulated system of 5 years at some kind of university plus 3 years of practice in some factory, how many "framebuilder" dreams would then be happening? probably not even a tenth of what actually happens as it's much more esotherical or idealized image about the selftaught artistic mind living alone in an isolated workshop with the endlessly mythlogized images of flames and welding skills, as a Pollock of metals

[Souleur]

well, I'll preface my comments with the propriety that I indeed am no framebuilder, and am only on the edge of the attempt to give it a try as a cursory hobbist

Nonetheless, I have to say that the comments resonate to much more than just framebuilding and the artisan who is a true framebuilder. I will say also, as a nurse practitioner of 23 years, in a practice professionally, I see some commonality. Beside my professional position, I am also on adjunct faculty in teaching at the graduate level for a local state university. Critical thinking is an absolute lost discipline, perhaps an undervalued virtue and somewhat a lost art. The kiddos I teach, who are in grad school afterall, really struggle with this. The technology that is available to them make them intellectually lazy, as they just 'google' a list of differential considerations in lieu of critically thinking. This is to their disservice as when the time arrives for them to critically think in the real world, some fail, perhaps a majority do. I have gained a reputation on campus within the little group that we have as being the one who demands they go an extra mile, yet they love the rotation and ask for it with preference. The outcomes and their benefits of being introduced to critical thinking, logic and reasoning is actually something they do reap rewards on, and not to self inflate here, but too many of my colleagues are sophmores in this as well.

This, I think, parallels this art of building a frame...and please feel free to correct me if I am wrong, but I can see the similiarity being that the demands on the following things: from the very beginning, knowing what is necessary to provide the known outcome, visualizing the angles, geometry and tubing for the given rider and their interest, would demand fluidity in knowledge and experience in order to provide this; the application of fabricating, the methodical preparation of the materials, the finest details of sterility up to the point of the weld, and lastly...and correct me if wrong, perhaps its is what we are enamored with is the weld but I see this as a final step in a great many; that one in a constant state of awareness, and whereas indeed laws and physics apply, assessing and constantly re-evaluating the process and accomodating that seems to be mastered only by a few.

Now, I know thats a long sentence, but there are a good many variables that one may be involved with. As I teach students, I feel applies that you can skin a cat many ways, each results a skinned cat. How you skin the cat does make a difference, not that its wrong one way or another, they are simply more messy perhaps vs the pro. This process seems similar, subtle differences may be made....5* difference in HT or ST, or tubing diameters subtly altered with differences that are measured by the resulting ride.

The result does resonate over time

man, I just hope I can pull this out of my soul and lay it down...for me, I know its in there

[Souleur]

I forgot to say respectfully that I know there are many, justly and rightly who are rolling their eyes at the freshman, but I have loved cycling since the day Lemond won the tour with Fignon collapsing at the finish a few seconds short. That has been a good many years, and since I have had the passion to seek it. I ride, I race, and anything bipedicular...I ride. I see everything, I think. I see the big things, the little things. I ask myself the question on 'how' and look for the answers. Over time, I have put together many a bike, I am self profecient in wrenching everything else, and it seems the next thing for me to do is take on the monstrous task of really building one. Its enormous, but I feel its worthy. I have now been reading everything I can on it, now for ~2years. Vocational manuals, check. Humble opinions, check. Discussed with torch bearers, check. I just need to do it now, check.

[Doug Fattic]

I'm a real teacher (with appropriate university degrees in the field of education, state certifications with plenty of classroom and school board experience) that has literally dedicated my life to teaching others how to build bicycle frames since 1976 so I've got some knowledge of what it takes to learn the primary skills related to the trade. Actually working with lots of students over a long period of time has shaped my methods and opinions. The reality is that today taking a framebuilding class is the only practical way (and in my opinion the very best way) to begin the process. There just aren't any places to learn in a production line in the US anymore. Even if there was a place somewhere for someone, there wouldn't be enough openings for the other 100s of people that want to make a bicycle frame (or frames). So I'm not sure of the value of recommending a requirement that doesn't exist. Learning by trail and error with internet help is a slow inefficient process. Damaged results can spoil reputations a long time after some mastery is obtained. DIY is fine for someone that wants a fun winter project to make their own frame but is an inferior way to get really accomplished. There are very few exceptions to the fact that the best at some skill (music, sports, whatever) have or have had a good coach or teacher. "I learned by myself" is not going to be on their resume.

I think part of the problem (in a discussion of what it takes to become a framebuilder) is that the job description and skill level required has not been well defined on the internet. Only when it is defined is it possible to say what it takes to achieve that definition. Volumes needed (X number of frames) or length of time required (years at the bench) are totally meaningless figures without a very clear statement of what is supposed to be achieved. It is one thing to make a frame to a certain standard of quality and another to make them fast enough to be profitable. Those are 2 separate skills that can be defined in different ways. It is easy enough to define quality but there are many variables in profitability. That includes a lot of things not related to brazing and filing. The reality I know is almost every student in my class is able to make a high quality frame on their first try. They just make them a lot slower than a professional and need to avoid difficulties like stainless steel or light heat treated tubing. And of course someone is looking over their shoulder to guide them all the time. And every student has a different learning curve because of past experiences or innate abilities.

Because the primary goal is that every student make a frame to a professional standard in my class, I teach in a different way than most other classes. It is the equivalent of doing whatever it takes so every student gets a B or higher grade. There is a huge difference between a student that has actually done it to a decent standard and/or having seen it done and tried to copy. Because my responsibility is in results and not just in effective presentation (which is the primary goal of other classes), I have to adjust my methods to meet their individual learning challenges until they get it right.

This is how I define the standard result I expect to be achieved in one of my classes: Their frame design will match their bicycle position and intended purpose. It will be brazed within the temperature window brazing materials allow. Silver and/or brass will be everywhere it should be (no voids) and nowhere it shouldn't (clean shorelines). The frame will be aligned to tight tolerances (+ or – a mm) with both wheels within that same plane. And it will look good because they have been taught the techniques of filing. Most students don't instinctually know how to file in the most effective way. They need to be taught.

This is why I argue that taking a good class is the best start a person can have to learn how to build bicycle frames. It just makes the most sense to learn a new skill set with very organized explanations and demonstrations. Systematic presentations of proven methods of how to put a frame together with brazing and filing instructions (including how to avoid common rookie mistakes) provides a solid foundation to organize future information.

So every way I organize my class is based on this goal of a student leaving with a pro quality frame. That is why my classes are usually 3 weeks long instead of 2 (although I do sometimes have 2 week classes) with my assistant Herbie Helm helping me. I teach 3 at a time because someone else thinks of a question another might not ask and makes something different to learn from. I might also add that we make utilitarian bicycles for pastors in Ukraine. I've sent 4 of my students over to make a batch of frames over a 3 month period. Another one of my students that just graduated is scheduled to go over in March.

I get a little testy when the value of a class is questioned or all framebuilding classes are judged as a group rather than individually by those don't have any experience teaching others or don't know what is actually being taught or have never examined closely the frames made in a class. I believe if any judgement is given it should be based on measurable results that are well defined of what was actually built.

Doug Fattic
Niles, Michigan

[Amaro Bikes]

This, I think, parallels this art of building a frame...and please feel free to correct me if I am wrong, but I can see the similiarity being that the demands on the following things: from the very beginning, knowing what is necessary to provide the known outcome, visualizing the angles, geometry and tubing for the given rider and their interest, would demand fluidity in knowledge and experience in order to provide this; the application of fabricating, the methodical preparation of the materials, the finest details of sterility up to the point of the weld, and lastly...and correct me if wrong, perhaps its is what we are enamored with is the weld but I see this as a final step in a great many; that one in a constant state of awareness, and whereas indeed laws and physics apply, assessing and constantly re-evaluating the process and accomodating that seems to be mastered only by a few.

Why always keep relating framebuilding with an art? I think this is probably one of the main reasons why it will always be taken as some kind of ethereal mythologized act rather than what it should be considered as, a job, a skill, a process, something that someone realizes following some standarized steps in order to create a safe vehicle for others to enjoy. Of course, aside this main base picture, it will always add each builder's own perspective or personality which will make it more or less appealing to others, therefore more or less succesfull as a business. And here is where the big differential point is, as almost anyone (of course, with practice and some coordination and skills) would be able to be good enough at the technical parts of this process (say cutting, tube prep, fitting, welding, paint, etc), but none of those technical skills will be enough to survive if this builder can't manage to create something appealing enough to be alive in the market, and of course being able to run a business, the customer service, accounts, etc, etc. This is exactly why it would not matter if everybody would be able to build a bike more or less properly, some individuals will always rise over the average, maybe because of they obsesive attention to details, maybe because of their incredibly unique personality and own perspectives on bicycles, paintwork, aesthetics, tech solutions, etc. As it would happen with any other question in life (call it literature, everybody knows to write, but only some manage to tell stories in a captivating way).

The reality is that today taking a framebuilding class is the only practical way (and in my opinion the very best way) to begin the process. There just aren't any places to learn in a production line in the US anymore. Even if there was a place somewhere for someone, there wouldn't be enough openings for the other 100s of people that want to make a bicycle frame (or frames). So I'm not sure of the value of recommending a requirement that doesn't exist.

...

This is why I argue that taking a good class is the best start a person can have to learn how to build bicycle frames. It just makes the most sense to learn a new skill set with very organized explanations and demonstrations. Systematic presentations of proven methods of how to put a frame together with brazing and filing instructions (including how to avoid common rookie mistakes) provides a solid foundation to organize future information.
I get a little testy when the value of a class is questioned or all framebuilding classes are judged as a group rather than individually by those don't have any experience teaching others or don't know what is actually being taught or have never examined closely the frames made in a class. I believe if any judgement is given it should be based on measurable results that are well defined of what was actually built.

Doug, your case is probably an oasis in the framebuilding classes case (considering how many "5 days course and take your own frame with you" classes are out there), and for sure something to respect and consider as a real learning experience. And definetly it's a great advance fr the learning curve avoiding so many early mistakes, I think there's no doubt about it. But I'm sure you'll be the first one to admit that not even your best student would be ready to be straight on a pro builder with all its consecuences. Some time is needed to develop many different inner layers of knowledge, including self-knowledge about who/what is being told to others.
About places where to learn, I do not know the actual situation in the US, but I'm sure some 40 years ago when Richard left US to learn in UK he could be saying some kind of similar about not having chances in US? This is why I said that if someone is deeply focused on what they want to do, will be up to do whatever step is needed, including some years of nothing more than learning, anywhere, anyway. And I'm the first one to admit this modern lazyness and inmediate need of satisfaction, don't get me wrong, I think it's something about today's minds. Who needs to study 10 years of music school with endless practice hours at home? Much better to do some fast/easy youtube videos and see if you can become a new Justin Bieber viral sensation without all the troubles of the "classic" career boredom. Maybe it's also because this what most of people consume right now, inmediate nothingness with the right promo

Cheers.

[e-RICHIE]

Doug - Great reply. Thanks atmo.

How many of your students have become commercial framebuilders, that is - making a living working full time at the bench? I'm pretty sure UBI stated one percent as an answer not too many years ago when a similar conversation appeared in a NAHBS related magazine article.

I'm a real teacher <cut>

[rphetteplace]

Doug - Great reply. Thanks atmo.

How many of your students have become commercial framebuilders, that is - making a living working full time at the bench? I'm pretty sure UBI stated one percent as an answer not too many years ago when a similar conversation appeared in a NAHBS related magazine article.

....but they can be quite successful and well respected builders that come through UBI D Crisp being the first name that comes to mind.

[Jonathan]

Doug - Great reply. Thanks atmo.

How many of your students have become commercial framebuilders, that is - making a living working full time at the bench? I'm pretty sure UBI stated one percent as an answer not too many years ago when a similar conversation appeared in a NAHBS related magazine article.

Full time is an interesting definition. Commercial is pretty self explanatory. When I look over the smoked out threads I see firemen, teacher, finance, graphic design, guys who work in bike shops, guys who manage bike shops, guys who own bike shops, guys who paint, guys who sell lugs etc. They all look full time to my eye though they have other things. I spend as much time in my shop as I do my office, though not as much lately due to health.

[e-RICHIE]

Full time is an interesting definition. Commercial is pretty self explanatory. When I look over the smoked out threads I see firemen, teacher, finance, graphic design, guys who work in bike shops, guys who manage bike shops, guys who own bike shops, guys who paint, guys who sell lugs etc. They all look full time to my eye though they have other things. I spend as much time in my shop as I do my office, though not as much lately due to health.

Good answer atmo.

I think when someone is a professional in a trade, he brings something to the table that's a good deal away from whatever elementary beginnings he made have had. When I asked the question, what I am trying to flesh out is how many folks fit that mold after taking a class. I'm aware that it's a leading question, and subjective, and accept whatever criticism would be heaped on me for having an attitude about it. We all agree, or have spoken about it for a long time, that the trade's barrier of entry is quite low. I'd rather see folks train longer and better, and have more of a fighting chance to earn a living wage from framebuilding. As it stands now, the smart money says most cats struggle. That's not right.

[Jonathan]

Good answer atmo.

I think when someone is a professional in a trade, he brings something to the table that's a good deal away from whatever elementary beginnings he made have had. When I asked the question, what I am trying to flesh out is how many folks fit that mold after taking a class. I'm aware that it's a leading question, and subjective, and accept whatever criticism would be heaped on me for having an attitude about it. We all agree, or have spoken about it for a long time, that the trade's barrier of entry is quite low. I'd rather see folks train longer and better, and have more of a fighting chance to earn a living wage from framebuilding. As it stands now, the smart money says most cats struggle. That's not right.

Yeah, and let me add I wasn't really responding critically to your pov or a perceived bias. The definition of full time, professional or comercial is something I struggle with in my own head. I used to think I was unique, until I realized there are so many like me. I'm not sure I'd want to spend a whole career within 400 square feet either. I really like the relationship I have with my shop right right now and I've got more work than ever. Maybe I do push back when i perceive that someone tries to define full time as X or Y? I'm open to that larger discussion, maybe in another thread.

[Craig Ryan]

I think the "training longer and better" should fall on the marketing side, before the bench side.

[e-RICHIE]

I think the "training longer and better" should fall on the marketing side, before the bench side.

I am not sure what you mean. I think if the left hand side (of the timeline) as the
empty one, and all training should start there so that a profitable path can be forged.

[Craig Ryan]

I agree, but marketing is as important as building. Maybe more important since it's what generates money. I guess I was sort of taking the building part for granted. Either you can build or not. One should have a pretty good idea of that within a short amount of time.

[e-RICHIE]

I agree, but marketing is as important as building. Maybe more important since it's what generates money. I guess I was sort of taking the building part for granted. Either you can build or not. One should have a pretty good idea of that within a short amount of time.

I think folks whose work encompasses a creative bent have a hard time thinking of money as part of the ordeal. They get used to struggling when their peers are in the same station. I also think that, enough of them together - be it at a framebuilder show, or otherwise - and they begin to support each others misery (for lack of a better word) and forget that they have the tools to succeed. They just have to use them.

[Jonathan]

I agree, but marketing is as important as building. Maybe more important since it's what generates money. I guess I was sort of taking the building part for granted. Either you can build or not. One should have a pretty good idea of that within a short amount of time.

My friends who are attorneys, CPAs, financial advisors, contractors etc all struggle with this. Very few folks in business for themselves just open the door and have work. We all went to school to do X, but we don't get to do X without doing Y first.

[Doug Fattic]

How many of your students have become commercial framebuilders, that is - making a living working full time at the bench? I'm pretty sure UBI stated one percent as an answer not too many years ago when a similar conversation appeared in a NAHBS related magazine article.

I would estimate more than 10% of students that take my class make frames in some way commercially. I tend to get the most serious student that does a great amount of research online before making their commitment since I don't go out of my way to advertise. This is the answer I typically get when I ask them what made them choose one of my classes. My low key approach to marketing actually weeds out the less motivated that think all classes are similar and that anyone can teach them and put a high priority on being as close to home as possible. Many of them that go on to do more partner frame building with other kinds of work. Only a few do it completely full time. Almost everyone that has taken my frame painting class does so professionally now. I try to keep tabs on my students to see how they are doing and there are 3 common roadblocks that stop their ambitions. The 1st is life just gets in the way with children or the wife loses her job or health insurance is too expensive. The 2nd is for a lack of someplace for a decent shop. This is a common problem. And finally it takes considerable finances to launch a business and some don't have access to enough resources.

A class of course weeds out a certain number who realize they don't have the ability or aptitude to want to make more. It isn't for everyone and not just anyone has the necessary skills. Some can make nice frames but not fast enough. Everyone can leave class with a nice custom frame fit to them (Herbie and I can pick up the slack) but the reality of what it takes can be a deal breaker.