Framebuilder or production line worker

[Souleur]

[QUOTE=Amaro Bikes;565323]Why always keep relating framebuilding with an art? I think this is probably one of the main reasons why it will always be taken as some kind of ethereal mythologized act rather than what it should be considered as, a job, a skill, a process, something that someone realizes following some standarized steps in order to create a safe vehicle for others to enjoy. Of course, aside this main base picture, it will always add each builder's own perspective or personality which will make it more or less appealing to others, therefore more or less succesfull as a business. And here is where the big differential point is, as almost anyone (of course, with practice and some coordination and skills) would be able to be good enough at the technical parts of this process (say cutting, tube prep, fitting, welding, paint, etc), but none of those technical skills will be enough to survive if this builder can't manage to create something appealing enough to be alive in the market, and of course being able to run a business, the customer service, accounts, etc, etc. This is exactly why it would not matter if everybody would be able to build a bike more or less properly, some individuals will always rise over the average, maybe because of they obsesive attention to details, maybe because of their incredibly unique personality and own perspectives on bicycles, paintwork, aesthetics, tech solutions, etc. As it would happen with any other question in life (call it literature, everybody knows to write, but only some manage to tell stories in a captivating way).

I understand, that we/I sometimes refer to things in such a way, as to make things cliche', however, I did not intend on the art of what is done by you guys who have mastered this skillset in a cliche' way. I do believe in any discipline there are some who possess 'something' that rises above the level of others, as you mentioned above, and isn't that an art? In medicine, we say there is science to what we do, knowns, and there is an art of practice that is something we work on but in the same something you really cannot teach either. I simply see parallels here, call it an art that rises like creme to the top, or call it an expectation that some masters do master. Just my observation, and as a freshman newbie fish here, I am totally just trying to glean. I really do appreciate your input and help Aimar

Thanks Doug et al for the thoughts and insight

[Doug Fattic]

About places where to learn, I do not know the actual situation in the US, but I'm sure some 40 years ago when Richard left US to learn in UK he could be saying some kind of similar about not having chances in US?

Just to be clear about the history of American framebuilders, the modern age of adults riding bicycles in the US just for exercise or enjoyment started right around 1970. Before then few adults in US rode bicycles for fun or exercise. It was an extremely niche activity most places. After the 1970 bike boom started those wanting to get the best bicycles had to buy European ones (the Schwinn Paramount was an exception). The old guys in the States that had made custom frames for 6 day racers before WWII had died or retired. Of course this new demand opened up a market for Americans to make bicycles here. Because the knowledge to make frames existed primarily in Europe (Albert Eisentraut was an exception), that is where about a dozen of us went to learn the secrets of the trade. Included in this group was Richard Sachs, Peter Weigle, Matt Assenmacher, Peter Mooney and others as well as myself. I spent my summers off as a teacher in the early 70's using a Brit rail pass visiting just about every builder I could locate in the UK trying the find the best place for me to learn. There were lots of builders to visit back then. I have been forever thankful that Jack Briggs at Ellis-Briggs Cycles in Shipley West Yorkshire was willing to teach me. Andrew – the journeyman/apprentice when I was there – still makes frames there. In fact my primary purpose for going abroad to learn these methods was to teach them back here in the US where for the most part they weren't known. Of course when we returned, we adapted what we did to this new American market – which was different from the European one. Our American customers were more affluent and we were not restricted using only the methods the Europeans had learned from their fathers.

[Todd Mosley]

Doug - that sounds like the start of a good book. Keep writing it.

[Amaro Bikes]

I really do appreciate your input and help Aimar

I'm absolute NOTHING in this conversation, is people like Richard, Steve, Drew, Tyler, Eric, etc, who are living samples of what a REAL framebuilder (not simple someone who build frames) and also people as Doug, who at the other end of the question are giving the right tools to make the best possible first steps into this trip, the ones who do really have words with weight to be listened and studied. In fact I should apologize for daring to throw so many random thoughts. 10100111 democracy has those problems of putting so different value voices at the same level

Almost all what I've said is mainly applied to myself and how I feel many of us do we approach our first steps in all this "framebuilding" question.
I would say it's some kind of "Benjamin Button" process where starting at a "done" attitude, considering ourselves as old enough, ready to life, but then each new frame, each new step UNDERSTOOD, arise the child you're in reality, and how far from adulthood you are. Then, this process must continue till the bottom end, where finally, after a long time, you're entirely deconstructed, as a child, prepare to begin the growing experience to reach maturity and become an adult with the right perspective and view, and as happens in the real life, becoming an adult is a process where no shortcuts exist, where almost everyone has to take certain time and questions. Sure some people will reach maturity sooner than others, but it will always need a building yourlsef process, with all its consecuences and time.

To me, at least in my case, this "benjamin button" process is happening or needed because I feel that nowadays we're simply becoming floating minds, brains, educated in a culture where all you have to do is think, have ideas, and then find someone to do it for you, or buy it, being ideas the most valuable think, the new gold, this having created this disconnection between mind and body which results in thinking countries (minds) versus manufacturing countries (hands), and most of us, as this connection of body/mind is lost, we need to relearn we've many skills and abilities hidden for so long, and reeducate our minds into the "how could I solve this" instead of the "where can I find how to solve this". This is why I said many times we just want to go through shortcuts and consider it's all done simply because we have taken the decission to become framebuilders,had a couple of ideas, and made some beautifully captivating pictures on our blogs, as this is what we are used to eat everyday, volatile ideas to consume, without even needing to have a real physical object of true behind to support all this idea.
And this is one of the things building frames has to gift anyone getting into it, rediscovering your hands, finding out your body is the greatest tool you will ever find, and in many cases, if spending enough hours and practice, the coordination between mind and body can be as accurate as most machines we before considered a basic need.

Anyway, Ive already talk too much again, while I should be simply listening.

[David Tollefson]

Aimar -- that is absolute gold there. Well said.

[RylandWB]

If you ride a bike, you are a cyclist.
If you build bicycle frames, you are a frame builder.
Maybe if you do it professionally you can have that condensed to framebuilder.

Hashtag: TwoCentsAboutIndustryNomenclature

[steve garro]

If you ride a bike, you are a cyclist.
If you build bicycle frames, you are a frame builder.
Maybe if you do it professionally you can have that condensed to framebuilder.

Hashtag: TwoCentsAboutIndustryNomenclature

Sure, but burning toast doesn't make you a chef.

Once again, words from The Man:
can't we just get along ?: So you really want to do this.....
- Garro.

[Mike Mcdermid]

Sure, but burning toast doesn't make you a chef.

Once again, words from The Man:
can't we just get along ?: So you really want to do this.....
- Garro.

it does if theres a niche market for people who like burnt toast, and someone will try and create a market if they think they can make a buck

[steve garro]

it does if theres a niche market for people who like burnt toast, and someone will try and create a market if they think they can make a buck

That's fine as long as they don't pass off the burnt toast as a fine baguette.
Disclaimer: I was a baker.
- Garro.

[hmbatrail]

I've read through this whole thread with great interest at the disparate views of what is and is not a frame builder. If you assume there are two crucial traits required to build bikes for profit they are:

A. know how to build a frame.
B. know how to run a business.

What is the difference between successful frame builders those that aren't? How well the successful ones handle Item B.

A couple weeks ago I had a fellow stop by the shop who is going to be on the new builder table at NAHBS. He was telling me of all of these amazing things he was going to do with his NAHBS bike. It was some ridiculous way over the top chopper type thing. I asked him, "That sounds like a lot of work. What are you planning on charging for that thing if someone orders one?". His answer was that he was never going to build another one because it was so much work and he wanted to just build fillet brazed road bikes as his regular line. That answer struck me as disappointing. I asked him what he was going to charge for his fillet brazed road bikes. His price was so cheap that there is no way he is coming close to profitable. He is doomed to trip up on Item B.

Sacrificing for the art of it is an express ticket punched to failure if you are losing money.

I sell frames for money. I charge a fair price for a fair product and I make a profit.

[hmbatrail]

And the things that make me a better and more successful frame builder stem directly from lessons learned fucking up Item B. Luckily I learned quickly enough to not make many mistakes twice.

[Michael Gordon]

I'm going to stick to what I said back on page 2 of this thread..

"I made chocolate chip cookies last night, but this does not make me a baker. I even baked once for a bake sale at my daughters school where my cookies were sold for $$$, but this still does not make me a baker."

I once questioned what the difference was between someone who is a really great cook, and someone who could go by the title of chef. The answer I got, from a chef, is that the chef knows how to run a kitchen, manage people, money, supply, demand, production, and bring control & order to what anyone else would struggle with as chaos, and do it profitably.

I like what Tim said.

Mike Gordon
Highland Park, IL

[e-RICHIE]

A. know how to build a frame.
B. know how to run a business.

Hey and PS - nice to see you here again atmo.

[Dallas Tex]

I've read through this whole thread with great interest at the disparate views of what is and is not a frame builder. If you assume there are two crucial traits required to build bikes for profit they are:

A. know how to build a frame.
B. know how to run a business.

.

I'd humbly beg to differ. Three crucial traits. I've used this '3 legged stool' analogy many, many times. I've met guys who make incredible frames & can also run a business, but they don't make it.

A) Ability to build a bike that is worthy of being sold

B) Abilty to sell the bikes that one makes

C) Ability to run a small buisness

'A' should be in place before you say go. 'C' you can catch up & pick this up if need be. 'B' is the wild card. You can build the nicest frames in the world and run your biz like a champ, if you can't sell your wares - it ain't gonna work. This is the scenario that I see most when guys take down their shingle.

[e-RICHIE]

I'd humbly beg to differ. Three crucial traits. I've used this '3 legged stool' analogy many, many times. I've met guys who make incredible frames & can also run a business, but they don't make it.

A) Ability to build a bike that is worthy of being sold

B) Abilty to sell the bikes that one makes

C) Ability to run a small buisness

'A' should be in place before you say go. 'C' you can catch up & pick this up if need be. 'B' is the wild card. You can build the nicest frames in the world and run your biz like a champ, if you can't sell your wares - it ain't gonna work. This is the scenario that I see most when guys take down their shingle.

In the case of all of us in the conversation, it's we (and not that thing that carries our name on the down tube) that is the ware atmo.

[hmbatrail]

If I am just selling a frame, I'm burying the headline. I sell the experience. I sell the perception of suffering for the art. I sell comfort to my customer that I am sweating every little detail to deliver the perfect frame and NOTHING in my world matters until that frame is delivered. In its simplest form it is called "customer service" and it is imperative whether one is selling bicycles, wall to wall carpeting, earthquake insurance, financial advice, fake boobs, or anything else. Treat people the way you want to be treated.

Ultimately it means my customer has more than money invested in the process and end product. It also means I get a lot of return customers.

And Richard, yeah I've been away too long. Kinda feels good to be back if you folks will have be back.

A man much wiser than me once told me, "There is only one place someone can buy a Shamrock. They either want it or not".

[Dallas Tex]

In the case of all of us in the conversation, it's we (and not that thing that carries our name on the down tube) that is the ware atmo.

The builder, the experience, the service, the frame set, the bicycle, the ware.....doesn't matter what you call it, if your skillset doesn't include the ability to sell it (exchange currency for said item), it's not going to work.

[e-RICHIE]

The builder, the experience, the service, the frame set, the bicycle, the ware.....doesn't matter what you call it, if your skillset doesn't include the ability to sell it (exchange currency for said item), it's not going to work.

We'll have to disagree. There's only one cat that can make a Daltex. The buyer either wants a Daltex or he doesn't atmo. I'm oversimplifying it here, but the essence remains. You have a lock on your own franchise. Infect folks with your inner Thompson and the sons of your clients will be your clients some day. If you don't believe what I just wrote, then selling it (exchange currency for said item) will be a chore.

[Amaro Bikes]

"The buyer either wants a Daltex or he doesn't"

Absolutely right, but... what makes a buyer "want" something? Here is where too many different aspects come to play, it will not only be about skills, product by itself or builder personality, but also managing all this new craze of marketing to create the need, the wish, the desire, so such certain buyer will "want" that certain product.

No one is born with a certain desire or need, it's all build up input after input, call it an advert, an article, a film, a forum post, a book, a sweaty nightmare...

So, being able to create this desire is also something to consider. Although there's the risk of losing the real priorities, either taking too much time off the bench or even worst, begin to overthink more on what people might "want" rather than simply focus on your own idea of what would you like your bikes to be like

[e-RICHIE]

You don't tweak yourself or your ways to make a market, you simply wait until folks
want what you have. When enough do, you have a market. Don't over think it atmo.

"The buyer either wants a Daltex or he doesn't"

Absolutely right, but... what makes a buyer "want" something? Here is where too many different aspects come to play, it will not only be about skills, product by itself or builder personality, but also managing all this new craze of marketing to create the need, the wish, the desire, so such certain buyer will "want" that certain product.

No one is born with a certain desire or need, it's all build up input after input, call it an advert, an article, a film, a forum post, a book, a sweaty nightmare...

So, being able to create this desire is also something to consider. Although there's the risk of losing the real priorities, either taking too much time off the bench or even worst, begin to overthink more on what people might "want" rather than simply focus on your own idea of what would you like your bikes to be like