Trangender & Sports

[sk_tle]

Exactly. Simplistic thoughts over complex issues. Maybe ask 6 yr olds what to do next.

It is only a complex issue to people who insist on making it complex. There is no reason to separate things that are made to be used the same way by mens, womens, and transgenders. You sit on the toilet seat, you pee or poo, you then proceed to wash your hands. Objectively, what is so different in our sexual attributes and gender identity that made a separation useful or profitable to all parties ?

[colker]

With that said, I have difficulty just making it through the day. I absolutely don't have the energy to get worked up over this topic.

Then why reply to the post?

[sk_tle]

It's also unfair, IMO, to paint the situation with a broad brush and assume a transgender athlete has an unfair advantage over cisgender athlete.

I think we need data. And long term studies. The reason that made me think this is a non issue as long as it competition doesn't reach highest level. If data show that a transgender whose hormonal/whatever levels are monitored (similarly to the biological passport) doesn't perform better than people from the genre he identifies to, then I don't see any reasonable reason to prevent him from competing.

[defspace]

Given the performance impact deadlines at work, social commitments, and other 'real-world' stressors have on my racing performance, I cannot possibly imagine the impact of transitioning would have on performance.

[mjbabcock]

Either it´s fair competition or it´s not. If it´s not then it should not be sports. Make it a parade of social redemption or something...

Fair??? Fair?????
I've been beset by three pooping boat anchors for the last six years! And a real job! And grad school! And sick parents!!! That's not fair. I should have a 20 minute head start at the local cyclocross races to compete with those jerks who have no debt, no school, a responsibility free job, and no kids.

Let's be honest here and acknowledge that nothing about sport is "fair". From the respective starting lines we are dealt at birth, to the opportunities we are afforded along the way, those opportunities we make...there is very little fair about it. If it's racing, the genetics, nutrition, training guidance, eating habits learned from parents, gear we can afford...shoot, even being able to afford race entry fees and costs accociated with getting to races. It ain't fair. It isn't some sort of meritocracy. Those of us who are fortunate as hell like to think so, cause it makes us feel better about ourselves. Go easy on the trans-gender athlete confident that their "advantage" is offset by a whole garbage bag full of bullshit they have to deal with before and outside of competition.

[colker]

Fair??? Fair?????
I've been beset by three pooping boat anchors for the last six years! And a real job! And grad school! And sick parents!!! That's not fair. I should have a 20 minute head start at the local cyclocross races to compete with those jerks who have no debt, no school, a responsibility free job, and no kids.

Let's be honest here and acknowledge that nothing about sport is "fair". .

Then why pick on Lance Armstrong? Give his medals back. It´s all unfair and he survived cancer. He suffered so he is entitled to dope, cheat and win. he is also entitled to bully everyone because he cried and begged for our forgiveness. Feelings. It´s all about feelings.
Better yet: Let anyone compete as man or woman as he or she sees fit. If you are not successfull as a male racer, pull the wrong body card and be successful winning female racers. And if someone calls you names for doing it, it´s just mean conservatives who don´t get what´s going on.
You can even be a man, compete as a woman and have sex w/ girls. Just pretend you are a lesbian transgender cyclist. More suffering.
Btw am all for ending fair competitions, endorsements and pro athletes. F&/k all this cr@p including pro racing forums.

Btw.. i know kids who suffer from genetic disorders. Terrible conditions and very close to me. Please spare me the psychological suffering.

[zachateseverything]

I think we need data. And long term studies. The reason that made me think this is a non issue as long as it competition doesn't reach highest level. If data show that a transgender whose hormonal/whatever levels are monitored (similarly to the biological passport) doesn't perform better than people from the genre he identifies to, then I don't see any reasonable reason to prevent him from competing.

We have data. Has it ever been an issue at the highest levels? No.

[zachateseverything]

Then why pick on Lance Armstrong? Give his medals back. It´s all unfair and he survived cancer. He suffered so he is entitled to dope, cheat and win. he is also entitled to bully everyone because he cried and begged for our forgiveness. Feelings. It´s all about feelings.
Better yet: Let anyone compete as man or woman as he or she sees fit. If you are not successfull as a male racer, pull the wrong body card and be successful winning female racers. And if someone calls you names for doing it, it´s just mean conservatives who don´t get what´s going on.
You can even be a man, compete as a woman and have sex w/ girls. Just pretend you are a lesbian transgender cyclist. More suffering.
Btw am all for ending fair competitions, endorsements and pro athletes. F&/k all this cr@p including pro racing forums.

Btw.. i know kids who suffer from genetic disorders. Terrible conditions and very close to me. Please spare me the psychological suffering.

Chill. no one is transitioning just to win a bike race.

[colker]

It is only a complex issue to people who insist on making it complex. There is no reason to separate things that are made to be used the same way by mens, womens, and transgenders. You sit on the toilet seat, you pee or poo, you then proceed to wash your hands. Objectively, what is so different in our sexual attributes and gender identity that made a separation useful or profitable to all parties ?

Do you think every other culture is primitive? Do you think harems or huts for teen girls in their rites of passage is just a sign of cultures who don´t get the simplicity of peeing and pooing? Have you ever asked yourself why is it that young males go after females and not the other way around in every single culture except hip northern europe clubland maybe?
Why is it women have a separate physical space in those cultures around the globe? Why is it that women preserve their bodies from the male eye in so many cultures?
Simplifying other´s complexities could also be cultural imperialism.

[colker]

Chill. no one is transitioning just to win a bike race.

If physical advantege don´t matter why have women´s races? After all, women would have more exposure competing in the grand tours. You have two problems solved.

[mjbabcock]

I'm not claiming some sort of moral equivalence here. Instead I'm claiming that people at the margins (including those folks who deal with difficuld genetic disorders) be cut some slack. Lance wasn't at the margins prior to cheating and was motivated only to win; transgender athletes aren't doing this to win. If they want to compete, then let them compete. Shoot, I often see kids with Down's syndrome (not equating genetic disorders with transgender status though both may be genetic) on high school teams...seems like a good idea as competition is about a lot more than winning.

As for a guy racing with women because he couldn't cut it. Sure...go for it...who gives a shit. maybe he will take away the millions in sponsors dollars and all the lucrative contracts of the women's sports world...maybe he could rock the women's pro tour in summer to win millions and then get a pro womens hockey or basketball or roller derby job in the winter to pad out that huge pile of cash.

...yeah, that was sarcasm.

[mjbabcock]

Do you think every other culture is primitive? Do you think harems or huts for teen girls in their rites of passage is just a sign of cultures who don´t get the simplicity of peeing and pooing? Have you ever asked yourself why is it that young males go after females and not the other way around in every single culture except hip northern europe clubland maybe?
Why is it women have a separate physical space in those cultures around the globe? Why is it that women preserve their bodies from the male eye in so many cultures?

Prettu sure homosexuality exists in tons of cultures, and gender fluidity exists as well. Just because western anthropologists traveled around and recognized western gender norms doesn't mean that alternative realities existed as well. Someone more knowledgable can help out on this one.

[Matthew Strongin]

Just pretend you are a lesbian transgender cyclist.

Here's the fundamental flaw in your position. A male who identifies as a male but pretends to be a woman to win a bike race isn't transgendered. He's an asshole. A transgender woman has gone through an extensive physical and psychological journey, often including some combination of hormone therapy and/or surgery, which results in a permanent change. The end result of that change is a hormone profile that is within range of the identified gender. A male who goes through that just to win a bike race would be nuts...and I'd also guess that it has happened no more than zero times.

Also, Armstrong's situation has nothing to do with this topic.

[Matthew Strongin]

Prettu sure homosexuality exists in tons of cultures, and gender fluidity exists as well. Just because western anthropologists traveled around and recognized western gender norms doesn't mean that alternative realities existed as well. Someone more knowledgable can help out on this one.

I wouldn't say I'm more knowledgeable, but many cultures identify gender outside of the binary construct that the western world adheres to. Here's an article about Thailand's recognition of a third gender that also references other countries who have done the same: Thailand's new constitution may recognize third gender - CNN.com. From the article:

If enacted, Thailand would join several Asian countries, including India, Pakistan and Nepal, that have recently moved to recognize third gender.

[colker]

Prettu sure homosexuality exists in tons of cultures, and gender fluidity exists as well. Just because western anthropologists traveled around and recognized western gender norms doesn't mean that alternative realities existed as well. Someone more knowledgable can help out on this one.

Yeah.. of course it exists but what does that have to do w/ transgender rights to bathroom use?
Did you think i was negating the existence of hommosexuality in other cultures? Those have different private spaces for women and men; wether they recognize hommosexuality or not. (Iranian theocracy recently denied the existence of hommosexuals.)
There is nothing about homosexuality in this thread actually. Transgender is not about which sex you want to make love to.

[dashDustin]

Is this about the female high school wrestler in Texas who was on NPR yesterday?

Regardless, the amount of testosterone they are taking isn't a dose large enough to matter, or even test positive for.

i'm late to this party, and don't really feel like reading the 5 pages here during my lunch break, but this.....the UIL really screwed this one up, in my opinion. and for the coming years, the wrestler's State Championship will be dirtied. Not because he's transitioning, but because the UIL refused his request to wrestle against the males. hopefully the UIL will reexamine this and change for 2017-2018.

[sk_tle]

Do you think every other culture is primitive?

Did I say that ?

Do you think harems or huts for teen girls in their rites of passage is just a sign of cultures who don´t get the simplicity of peeing and pooing? Have you ever asked yourself why is it that young males go after females and not the other way around in every single culture except hip northern europe clubland maybe?
Why is it women have a separate physical space in those cultures around the globe? Why is it that women preserve their bodies from the male eye in so many cultures?
Simplifying other´s complexities could also be cultural imperialism.

1. Women aren't that shy about their bodies in all culture. The thing is : most have been perverted by colonization and the influence of the biggest two monotheist religions. And that colonization was forced, not volontary.

2. There are lots of very common stupid things that humanity has done and embraced in the past like : slavery, wars, cannibalism, beating kids, riding clinchers, trolling on the internet, rape, hanging people of the opposite color, burning weirdos or people we didn't understand...doest it mean we should resume those stupid things because, hey, it is so traditionnal and common, no reason to change. Do you want us to beat gay people to death, harrassing judes or redhead people because we just used to do it for centuries and there is no reason to reflect on it and decide there must be another way for everybody to be happy.

3. You still haven't given me any objective reason to separate bathrooms based on arbitrary parameters.

[sk_tle]

4. There are things that can have been relevant in a specific period that isn't anymore. Let's think about eating pork. Both the Torah and the Quran have verse that prohibit eating pork/pig/swine meat. The real original reason is not religious. Most religious books aren't anything more than big old law books with fantasy tales in the middle to justify the arbitrary laws at a time where beliefs were stronger than science. These were sanitary measures at a time and a place where it was difficult to breed pork while avoiding roundworms and other parasitic deceases. A lot of muslim and jude still don't eat pork, while other do it nowadays although much less will publicly admit it. Anyway, there aren't any objective reasons to avoid eating a good pork dish as long as the whole breeding/slaughtering/cool chain/cooking as been done correctly.

[mjbabcock]

Yeah.. of course it exists but what does that have to do w/ transgender rights to bathroom use?
Did you think i was negating the existence of hommosexuality in other cultures? Those have different private spaces for women and men; wether they recognize hommosexuality or not. (Iranian theocracy recently denied the existence of hommosexuals.)
There is nothing about homosexuality in this thread actually. Transgender is not about which sex you want to make love to.

Sorry to be vague. For many of us, this is done at work or at home while 500 things are going on. I think I was picking up on general heteronormative portions of your posting:

Have you ever asked yourself why is it that young males go after females and not the other way around in every single culture except hip northern europe clubland maybe?
Why is it women have a separate physical space in those cultures around the globe? Why is it that women preserve their bodies from the male eye in so many cultures?

I was thinking that you were equating gender to sexuality when you were talking about "going after" or "preserving bodies". As for preserving bodies from male eyes...if there is anything I learned from National Geographic magazines at the age of 12 or 13, it was that other cultures do not preserve their feminine bodies from male eyes anywhere near the way we do in the West.

[zachateseverything]

If physical advantege don´t matter why have women´s races? After all, women would have more exposure competing in the grand tours. You have two problems solved.

What physical advantages? At the top level, there are rules in place. Hormone replacement therapy is required for a full year for trans-women to compete in top-level (Olympic or NCAA) sport. It's not a performance enhancer. For amateur racers, to the best of my knowledge, there hasn't been a single instance of a CIS-male claiming to identify as a woman in order to win a bike race.

Even if someone wanted to misrepresent themselves in order to win a race, wouldn't it be massively easier just to lie about their age or race down a category?