irrational fear of flying

[rwsaunders]

Sitting in DTW after flying the friendly skies overnight and waiting on my connecting flight…great airport and good airline imho…Delta. WSJ’s annual airlines ranking.

https://apple.news/Aia9COr7lS-m0p_ruF2EPkw

[AngryScientist]

Lucky SOB to find a Houston highway empty enough to crash land on and walk away with no injuries.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/pilot-sur...152403847.html

[72gmc]

Sitting in DTW after flying the friendly skies overnight and waiting on my connecting flight…

Have you read or watched Station Eleven? Had images of DTW in my head, for whatever reason, when reading about Severn City airport.

And because I was curious ... I just found this statement from the author!

Screen Shot 2023-01-23 at 1.05.37 PM.png

[gregl]

Lucky SOB to find a Houston highway empty enough to crash land on and walk away with no injuries.

Security camera video from a nearby RC plane park. You can see the accident aircraft land nearly on top of a tractor-trailer before sliding off and catching fire. I hope the pilot walked to the nearest convenience store to purchase a lottery ticket.

https://www.facebook.com/SPARKSRCTX/...6301195330352/

Greg

[bigbill]

I've seen my share of hard landings from the bridge of a carrier. In 2003, we deployed with a reserve Hornet squadron out of the Dallas area. Most were American Airline pilots that ran the full gamut of hovering without touching the deck to slamming into the deck which triggered maintenance due to the g forces. On one approach, the pilot was flying down the deck, wheels not touching non-skid, but somehow hooked the four wire and slammed the nose gear, which tore off one of the tires. After a while, I stopped being surprised. On that deployment (Iraq invasion) the only thing that mitigated risk was the reservists flying Hornets (C,D) which weighed 39K pounds with a strike load versus Tomcats which weighed 68K pounds going off the cat.

[Mabouya]

I've seen my share of hard landings from the bridge of a carrier. In 2003, we deployed with a reserve Hornet squadron out of the Dallas area. Most were American Airline pilots that ran the full gamut of hovering without touching the deck to slamming into the deck which triggered maintenance due to the g forces. On one approach, the pilot was flying down the deck, wheels not touching non-skid, but somehow hooked the four wire and slammed the nose gear, which tore off one of the tires. After a while, I stopped being surprised. On that deployment (Iraq invasion) the only thing that mitigated risk was the reservists flying Hornets (C,D) which weighed 39K pounds with a strike load versus Tomcats which weighed 68K pounds going off the cat.

Back to the drawing board...

[bigbill]

Back to the drawing board...

The only time I saw a gear collapse was on an S-3 hoover during OIF. It was a hydraulic failure, and we covered it in foam, so the three-man crew looked like marshmallows. I put the wind on the starboard beam to blow the smoke away from the emergency crews, then shifted the rudder to heel the ship over to port so the foam and fuel could run off the flight deck. In the small world that is the military, the pilot and I had been enlisted nukes together on two submarines in Charleston. He went on to be a naval aviator, and I stayed a nuke, but on the officer side. After all those years, I still had his back.

[rwsaunders]

Uncomfortably sharing runways in Austin...at least for a bit.

https://www.flightradar24.com/blog/n...mpaign=website

[htwoopup]

Irrational fear of being in a tin can on the ground….

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/02/11/u...airlines.html?

But this pull quote on a different than the incident in the lede is truly WTF???? I thought ALL pilots (not just our friends here) were interested in making sure it is all about safety first.

“The National Transportation Safety Board said on Friday that it had subpoenaed the pilots of the American Airlines plane after they declined its request for electronically recorded interviews.“

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/02/10/b...-incident.html

[vertical_doug]

Irrational fear of being in a tin can on the ground….

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/02/11/u...airlines.html?

But this pull quote on a different than the incident in the lede is truly WTF???? I thought ALL pilots (not just our friends here) were interested in making sure it is all about safety first.

“The National Transportation Safety Board said on Friday that it had subpoenaed the pilots of the American Airlines plane after they declined its request for electronically recorded interviews.“

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/02/10/b...-incident.html

The recent incident of a plane being towed to a parking lot hitting a bus at an airport raises concerns about the current training levels of airport and airline employees, especially in light of the rapid ramp-up in hiring to meet demand post-pandemic.

The objection by American Airlines pilots and their union to being electronically recorded during interviews by the National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) can be understood from their perspective, as they may worry about being blamed for the incident instead of focusing on the larger systemic issues. The NTSB's requirement of electronic recording may also impede the pilots' candor during the investigation.

Another concern is the fact that cockpit voice recorders continually overwrite previous recorded logs every two hours. This means that there is no audio record of the conversation between the American and Delta planes during the recent close call, adding to the larger issue of ensuring proper safety protocols and sufficient information for investigation purposes. The NTSB has recommended that the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) require cockpit voice recorders to record at least 25 hours of audio.

Obviously, pilots can make mistakes, but if the system is not prioritizing safety or current training levels of airport/airline personnel isn't adequate, the issue isn't really the pilots testimony in my opinion.
The real elephant in the room is current airports may be stretched close/past capacity. Boeing's issues with compromising safety with the development of the original 737 MAX to meet marketing and profitability targets may be a bigger problem across the industry than anyone wants to admit.

You can only do more with less for so long before it really bites you in the ass. And then you want to scapegoat the pilots. If I recall correctly, didn't Boeing initially try to blame the 737 Max crashes on developing world airline crews with inadequate training? There is never one cockroach.

(I bought a lot of tinfoil today at the supermarket.)

[htwoopup]

I get the legal perspective…but only if you are trying to hide…The NTSB always has a court steno do the transcript but you don’t want it recorded? And, they gave you the ability to look at the transcript/recording and “correct it” for stuff that was “wrong” in your view and you still said no??? I thought the idea was own your FU’s first and importantly if you did mess up help everyone understand it so procedures can be changed so that the FU’s are further minimized.

And, the two hour re=recording is nuts…but more than that….shit happened on the runway and it took more than two hours for someone to say “put another tape in (or whatever) because things didn’t go right and we need to figure out how to make it go right in the future”. I mean wtf were people doing for more than two hours before they realized the recording might be helpful in keeping us all safe. It just smells of cover my ass is more important than if people could die.

[vertical_doug]

Yes, it is true that following the two crashes involving the 737 MAX aircraft, there were initial reports that Boeing tried to place some of the blame on the training of the crew of the Ethiopian Airlines flight, which crashed in March 2019. However, these claims were later challenged by a number of investigations, including those by the Ethiopian government and the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA), which found that the primary cause of the crashes was a software malfunction in the 737 MAX's flight control system. The findings led to widespread criticism of Boeing and the FAA's certification process for the 737 MAX.

After the Lion Air Flight 610 crash in 2018, Boeing faced criticism for allegedly failing to adequately inform pilots about the functioning of a new anti-stall system, known as the Maneuvering Characteristics Augmentation System (MCAS), that was installed on the 737 MAX. There were reports that Boeing attempted to deflect responsibility for the crash onto the Lion Air crew, suggesting that the crew's inadequate training was a contributing factor. However, this claim was met with significant backlash and criticism, as the Lion Air crew had only received a brief, one-page informational bulletin about the MCAS system before the crash. The lack of information provided to the crew and the alleged shortcomings in the design and certification of the MCAS system were eventually determined to be significant factors in the crash.

(I asked ChatGPT to help me out here)

[vertical_doug]

I get the legal perspective…but only if you are trying to hide…The NTSB always has a court steno do the transcript but you don’t want it recorded? And, they gave you the ability to look at the transcript/recording and “correct it” for stuff that was “wrong” in your view and you still said no??? I thought the idea was own your FU’s first and importantly if you did mess up help everyone understand it so procedures can be changed so that the FU’s are further minimized.

And, the two hour re=recording is nuts…but more than that….shit happened on the runway and it took more than two hours for someone to say “put another tape in (or whatever) because things didn’t go right and we need to figure out how to make it go right in the future”. I mean wtf were people doing for more than two hours before they realized the recording might be helpful in keeping us all safe. It just smells of cover my ass is more important than if people could die.

My thought is the pilots are afraid of being scapegoated when there is a larger issue here. . . I doubt the cockpit recording error is not a pilot issue but by design of the airlines. The samething happens in finance. It's cheaper to pay the fine for failing to retain electronic communications and voice recordings, than to risk a few billion dollar settlement. Morgan Stanley failed to retain emails back in 1999, paid a small fine ($15mm) . Merrill retained the emails of Henry Blodget and paid a $100mm....

[htwoopup]

Yes, it is true that following the two crashes involving the 737 MAX aircraft, there were initial reports that Boeing tried to place some of the blame on the training of the crew of the Ethiopian Airlines flight, which crashed in March 2019. However, these claims were later challenged by a number of investigations, including those by the Ethiopian government and the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA), which found that the primary cause of the crashes was a software malfunction in the 737 MAX's flight control system. The findings led to widespread criticism of Boeing and the FAA's certification process for the 737 MAX.

After the Lion Air Flight 610 crash in 2018, Boeing faced criticism for allegedly failing to adequately inform pilots about the functioning of a new anti-stall system, known as the Maneuvering Characteristics Augmentation System (MCAS), that was installed on the 737 MAX. There were reports that Boeing attempted to deflect responsibility for the crash onto the Lion Air crew, suggesting that the crew's inadequate training was a contributing factor. However, this claim was met with significant backlash and criticism, as the Lion Air crew had only received a brief, one-page informational bulletin about the MCAS system before the crash. The lack of information provided to the crew and the alleged shortcomings in the design and certification of the MCAS system were eventually determined to be significant factors in the crash.

(I asked ChatGPT to help me out here)

I am not making accusations and I am not intending to slander anyone…but, I find it interesting that the lead director who ran an aircraft engine manufacturer and graduated from Virginia Tech which is heavy engineering said (not an exact quote but my sense of what he implied) after the crashes that he was only a business guy on the board who had to take whatever the experts at the company said to him as factual as he didn’t have anyway to know they were being less than open and honest in their requests/reports from the board. Oh, and the CFO at that aircraft engine manufacturer was previously working for the guy who was the lead director and is now the CEO. Jack Welch never taught anyone how to build a business ATMO.

[vertical_doug]

If it quacks like a duck,

[Scott G.]

My thought is the pilots are afraid of being scapegoated when there is a larger issue here. . . I doubt the cockpit recording error is not a pilot issue but by design of the airlines. [snip]

The FAA sets the recorder standard, spec sheet here.
You do get 25 hours of data link recording.
https://www.l3harris.com/all-capabil...data-recorders

[j44ke]

Seems to me that was not a plane hitting a shuttle bus but a tug hitting a shuttle bus while it was towing a plane. I think there is a difference.

ChatWTF did not help with this post. I made it myself out of sticks of wood and some string.

[gregl]

Lots to read/process in today's posts. A few thoughts from a former regional/charter/corporate pilot, aeronautical engineer, and once upon a time a teenage line service technician (AKA "ramp rat").

- Yesterday's LAX plane/tug/bus collision. These types of collisions have taken place since the Wright brothers started this whole enterprise. Before the 24-hour news cycle and ubiquitous camera phones, they rarely made the news. I can't say if these collisions are more frequent now than in the past. Hopefully our friend saab2000 will chime in with his experiences. As for me, I've been involved with three of these collisions over the years. Thankfully, none of them were caused by me and no people were injured. In two of the cases, the damage was significant enough to require backup aircraft.

- I'm disappointed the AA pilots refused to be interviewed/recorded, but not surprised. Airline pilot unions have done much good over the years, but they have also protected (IMO) some poorly performing pilots and stood in the way of safety improvements. There is no technical reason that cockpit voice recorders couldn't be configured to record up to 24 hours. There is no technical reason that video cameras couldn't be integrated into flight decks. When I went through simulator training, all sessions were video recorded for review purposes. I personally never worried about cockpit voice/data/video recording. If you fly in accordance with FAA regulations and your company's policies, you shouldn't have anything to worry about from a recording. The recorded data is only supposed to be used in accident or near-accident investigations. It's similar to the concept of police body cameras, with the same pushback from the unions.

A quick story to illustrate my points: early in 1992, I landed at the Elmira, NY airport. While taxiing in, I saw a USAir DC-9 parked on the general aviation ramp away from the airline terminal. The fuselage was buckled just aft of the wings and was supported by pallets. When asked, the line crew told us that the DC-9 had a very hard landing a few days prior which had bent the airframe. A friend who was an FAA inspector later filled me in on the backstory. The crew had been drinking late into the previous night/morning before showing up to fly their first flight of the day. Their first leg was a short hop from ITH to ELM. The winds were gusty and the crew botched the arrival. They pulled off the runway and told the tower that they had a technical issue they needed to resolve. They spent a half hour on the taxiway (your guess as to why they delay, but recall that early CVRs only recorded for 30 minutes...) before telling the tower they needed to be towed to the ramp. A tug was dispatched to the plane. Upon reaching the scene and seeing the extent of the damage, the ground crew refused to tow the aircraft. The pax were deplaned on the taxiway and the closest FAA office was called in to investigate. The investigators got to the scene a few hours later and conducted their preliminary investigation. Almost as an afterthought, they asked the crew for an alcohol test. Several hours later, the test was conducted - and the pilots still had evidence of alcohol in their systems. Extrapolating backwards, it was clear the crew was drunk during the flight. They were never criminally charged and they returned to flight status after retraining. The official cause of the crash was determined to be gusty winds (AKA wind shear).

https://reports.aviation-safety.net/...C93_N964VJ.pdf

https://www.airliners.net/photo/USAi...4flYo1Ww%3D%3D

Greg

[vertical_doug]

The FAA sets the recorder standard, spec sheet here.
You do get 25 hours of data link recording.
https://www.l3harris.com/all-capabil...data-recorders

Yes 25 hrs of data , but only 120 minutes of audio.

I think one of the issues coming out of the whole Boeing saga was the amount of regulatory capture by the industry over the regulator.

[echappist]

Oh boy, and yet another incident

A United flight from Maui to San Francisco plummeted to less than 800ft above the Pacific Ocean shortly after takeoff in December

It's one of United's 777-200 domestic airliners, which were previously grounded for a year or so.