Bikes and how they are ridden

[Gone 'n POP]

Swoop,

You went straight for an ad hominem line with what I said and you used a questionably race-based example as well. Now you're talking worn shorts and ass cracks and you're wondering why I declared your post obtuse? It was pointless too!

I'm being silly? The OP was about how, if you know something others don't, do you go about offering it to educate. Your answer was a picture perfect example of how not to offer an opinion.

The physics of moving through space at speed do not change at all between any of the three examples I gave. The more complex systems react differently in some respects, but physical law is just that.

Danny

now you're being silly. i like folks to use the cranks they feel best using.. and that's the extent to which i notice or think about it (i don't notice or think about). i get ruffled over worn out shorts with cracks glistening through and guys on fast group rides with earphones in.

the question is why does it matter so much to you?

as for line with bicycle... i think that picking a line is only one metric. last i looked go carts don't behave like a bicycle... unless you shift your weight around in your cart.
hey, on your moto, does the mass all go on your torso or is it down low where the engine is? seems a little different than a bicycle. hey, wow, another layer of wrong at ya... a vehicle with suspension is the same as a rigid one? those are cool physics you're sportin'.

if suggesting to people to go out with really skilled riders and watch them, or look at pros and where they put their bodies in crit turns seems obtuse to you... i think this isn't going to go well. frankly, you're being obtuse... your'e doing a good job of manifesting all the things you're trying to critique.

if writing, 'danny we're with (wif) you' somehow seems 'elitist'... all i can say is .. have at it.
as for my tag line.... its self mockery.
you should try it.

[davids]

Swoop,

You went straight for an ad hominem line with what I said and you used a questionably race-based example as well. Now you're talking worn shorts and ass cracks and you're wondering why I declared your post obtuse? It was pointless too!

I'm being silly? The OP was about how, if you know something others don't, do you go about offering it to educate. Your answer was a picture perfect example of how not to offer an opinion.

The physics of moving through space at speed do not change at all between any of the three examples I gave. The more complex systems react differently in some respects, but physical law is just that.

Danny

Danny,

I think you may want to cool off a little. My reading is that the first ad hominem attack came from you. If you're carrying baggage from somewhere else, please leave it at the door.

And for what it's worth, I think Swoop's substantive point is a good one - While a go-cart (or a car, for that matter) follows the same laws of physics as a bike, I think the differences between riding a road bike - balanced over 2 wheels on a machine I outweigh 6-1 - and driving a car - a machine where I'm strapped between four wheels on a platform carefully suspended above the road - are rather large. Most of what I've learned about driving technique isn't applicable to bike handling.

[swoop]

thanks for adding to the conversation 'danny'. choosing a line is a great skill to develop. you believe in developing skills. that's good. i thought that was an elitist thing.
i think there's more to cornering than line. and i think most people have that aha moment when the see really skilled guys cornering at speed in real life.

reason enough to go sit at the corners at the next local nrc race.

i think you're coming into this with some agenda to 'serve' me... it won't work here. so try to drop the agenda. i can't speak for everybody here, but i can say with some comfort.. we don't do keyboard warrior here.

risk something... try to make content.

[Sandy]

Since you have raced bikes and cars (maybe motorcycles?), I have a question for you- Is the line that one should take (whatever should means) in a car, bike, and motorcycle basically the same as one goes through a curve? I would think so. I would think that factors for a car or motorcycle such as power, weight distribution,weight of vehicle and driver, and front versus rear wheel (or all wheel) drive and how they would affect understeer and oversteer, and the driver's usage or non-useage of built in systems that actively influence the handling/limits of the car/motorcycle, would all come into play, but the actual line would be basically the same in all three types of vehicles. Is that correct, please?

I have a wonderful handling car. Best thing for me to do is take lessons to learn how to really drive it- For safety, confidence, and better enjoyment. The car is severely limited by my driving abilities, confidence in using its abilities, and common sense that I am driving on streets and not a track. Learning the precise line to take as mentioned above would be quite helpful and efficient, I would think. I don't go into turns arbitrarily, but certainly not as efficiently as I am sure you and other racers do.


Sandy

[Dekonick]

"You are correct sir!" (said in my mind like Ed McMann said that to the great Carson). You passively move fore/aft because you can't help it when the thing will go and stop the way a race cart will. But you do actively lean to get the cart to stick or break loose and rotate. Not the same as on a bike but not totally different either.

Dave

Physics is physics. Mass in motion will act like mass in motion until acted upon - It is learning how to trust your bike that is the hard part IMHO.

I know I brake too much when I corner. I know that braking will cause me to load my front wheel and cause the bike to want to straighten up, which does not help the cornering at all - but somehow the disconect is between knowledge, trust, and understanding.

Knowledge is key - understanding is better. Trust - now that is the ultimate. Gotta have guts...to ride like the best.

But - like stated above - feeling how mass in motion acts when acted upon has gotta help you learn - even if it is a 'kart and not a crit bike.

[taylorj]

...Descending and cornering are my weak spots. It's more in my head than anywhere else, and all the "reading tips" in the world would not help me get out of my own way. I used to sky-dive as much as I could---started in college and was hooked. When you learn how to jump out of planes, you jump in tandem before you first solo. One day, my husband came home with a racing tandem. we are like the jolly-green giant and the midget---and so he was careful to spec short little cranks (so I could easily spin his cadence) and went on a long climbing ride with lots of twisty hills and a narly descent (page Mill Road for those wonderin').

I learned more about leaning the bike and cornering on that one ride than in any other place.

Mr. Kirk's tips are excellent and it is a pity to filter through all the personal diatribes here...but I gladly do it because there's lots of good info once I put it through the filter.

It reminds me of that other board when Flux and Big daddy would give "real world" advice and they'd get followed up with whiny "yeah, but's". Very strange.

In any case---I love this thread and this spacemo---

Ride more...whine less, and you will become a better and happier bike rider. If a tip doesn't work, don't do it. This tandem thing has some cool points---and was an interesting way for me to learn how to ride my bike downhill and safely through a corner...

[Sandy]

Maybe I can give some insight as to why some people aren't really that interested in excellent advice/knowledge that will improve their cycling.

I know a young female cyclist who I have done group rides with. She is very small and lean, and undoubtedly does not weigh 100 pounds. She appears very relaxed on the bike, stands and rides off the saddle in a very smooth and graceful appearing manner. When in group rides she tended to fall behind because it is aparent to me that she simply is not very strong. I would climb hills with her (I am a poor climber) and although I am twice her body weight, I would often climb in substantially larger gears (much larger). I have told her that she could really improve a great deal and keep up better if she simply worked at getting stronger. She said that she is satisfied where she is in her cycling, understands clearly her abilities, and really has no desire to change.

She is a recreational cylist in excellent condition (often runs a few miles before cycling, and does lots of stretching) who simply enjoys where she is at in cycling, enjoys doing group rides with her friends and the camaraderie involved. She just doesn't care if she improves or how strong she is. She is very happy in the cycling she does. I have told her that her drivetrain seemed to make some significant noise an that she should have it checked. She said that it was a function of how she pedals. Doesn't bother her at all.

She is a pleasure to ride with- exceptionally sweet, reads cue sheets very well, rides extremely safely in a group, being very predictable in how she rides.

Bottom line is that she doesn't care about advice to improve. Interestingly, she has gotten stronger, probably just as a function of cycling more and doing some climbing on rides.

I hope the above makes sense to you.



Sandy

[Too Tall]

Maybe I can give some insight as to why some people aren't really that interested in excellent advice/knowledge that will improve their cycling.

I know a young female cyclist who I have done group rides with. She is very small and lean, and undoubtedly does not weigh 100 pounds. She appears very relaxed on the bike, stands and rides off the saddle in a very smooth and graceful appearing manner. When in group rides she tended to fall behind because it is aparent to me that she simply is not very strong. I would climb hills with her (I am a poor climber) and although I am twice her body weight, I would often climb in substantially larger gears (much larger). I have told her that she could really improve a great deal and keep up better if she simply worked at getting stronger. She said that she is satisfied where she is in her cycling, understands clearly her abilities, and really has no desire to change.

She is a recreational cylist in excellent condition (often runs a few miles before cycling, and does lots of stretching) who simply enjoys where she is at in cycling, enjoys doing group rides with her friends and the camaraderie involved. She just doesn't care if she improves or how strong she is. She is very happy in the cycling she does. I have told her that her drivetrain seemed to make some significant noise an that she should have it checked. She said that it was a function of how she pedals. Doesn't bother her at all.

She is a pleasure to ride with- exceptionally sweet, reads cue sheets very well, rides extremely safely in a group, being very predictable in how she rides.

Bottom line is that she doesn't care about advice to improve. Interestingly, she has gotten stronger, probably just as a function of cycling more and doing some climbing on rides.

I hope the above makes sense to you.



Sandy

The above made sense to me. She does get support from yourself, you are good person. Tell me what is the best advice you have ever gotten to improve your riding?

[Gone 'n POP]

Danny,

I think you may want to cool off a little. My reading is that the first ad hominem attack came from you. If you're carrying baggage from somewhere else, please leave it at the door.

And for what it's worth, I think Swoop's substantive point is a good one - While a go-cart (or a car, for that matter) follows the same laws of physics as a bike, I think the differences between riding a road bike - balanced over 2 wheels on a machine I outweigh 6-1 - and driving a car - a machine where I'm strapped between four wheels on a platform carefully suspended above the road - are rather large. Most of what I've learned about driving technique isn't applicable to bike handling.

David,

A definition of 'Ad Hominem': "An ad hominem argument, also known as argumentum ad hominem (Latin: "argument to the man", "argument against the man") consists of replying to an argument or factual claim by attacking or appealing to a characteristic or belief of the person making the argument or claim, rather than by addressing the substance of the argument or producing evidence against the claim. The process of proving or disproving the claim is thereby subverted, and the argumentum ad hominem works to change the subject."

U wif dat holmes?

I'm not bringing 'baggage' from anywhere. I responded to the inferred idea in Swoops reply that I might be "wiff", the stupid people and therefore, my comments should best be ignored. Swoop did not even entertain the very basics of what I had to say.

I can't idly allow that kind of a dismissive, smug attitude to be aimed towards me unchallenged. In answer to your accusation, you'll find that I've been careful to describe Swoop's response as 'obtuse' and not he himself. A favor he did not recognise or return.

Danny

[Too Tall]

David,

A definition of 'Ad Hominem': "An ad hominem argument, also known as argumentum ad hominem (Latin: "argument to the man", "argument against the man") consists of replying to an argument or factual claim by attacking or appealing to a characteristic or belief of the person making the argument or claim, rather than by addressing the substance of the argument or producing evidence against the claim. The process of proving or disproving the claim is thereby subverted, and the argumentum ad hominem works to change the subject."

U wif dat holmes?

I'm not bringing 'baggage' from anywhere. I responded to the inferred idea in Swoops reply that I might be "wiff", the stupid people and therefore, my comments should best be ignored. Swoop did not even entertain the very basics of what I had to say.

I can't idly allow that kind of a dismissive, smug attitude to be aimed towards me unchallenged. In answer to your accusation, you'll find that I've been careful to describe Swoop's response as 'obtuse' and not he himself. A favor he did not recognise or return.

Danny

Danny, appreciate your passion a good argument is welcome. You had the last word. Now go ride your bike and post some pics. Deal?

[Gone 'n POP]

'Swoop',

Developing skill at anything one chooses to do is not exclusive to any perceived social background. It's the mark of a person who can think conceptually and apply what's been learned from experience and then, from considered thought.

I did not write anything about your 'watch the better crit racers' post, other than asking readers to open their minds to the applicability of a wider experience they're more likely to have ready access to (driving a car).

If you don't agree, that's absolutely fine but posit your remarks cogently, directly and respectfully. I expect nothing less.

As for 'risking something', what I wrote obviously added a cogent point to the conversation that has made for some good reading, via respectfully made replies on its merits (Both in agreement and contention).

Whatadditive meaning did you plan to achieve with your original "danny, we're all wif you." reply to my posts?

thanks for adding to the conversation 'danny'. choosing a line is a great skill to develop. you believe in developing skills. that's good. i thought that was an elitist thing.
i think there's more to cornering than line. and i think most people have that aha moment when the see really skilled guys cornering at speed in real life.

reason enough to go sit at the corners at the next local nrc race.

i think you're coming into this with some agenda to 'serve' me... it won't work here. so try to drop the agenda. i can't speak for everybody here, but i can say with some comfort.. we don't do keyboard warrior here.

risk something... try to make content.

[Sandy]

The above made sense to me. She does get support from yourself, you are good person. Tell me what is the best advice you have ever gotten to improve your riding?

I will give you two that I think might be best, although I never fully implemented either of them. They are really dissimilar in approach and actually contradictory in nature, but I think that both would improve MY cycling a great deal, with the second probably more ultimately:

1. e-RICHIE- Ride for 70 minutes every day, spinning at a high cadence. Simple advice, but probably extremely productive.

2. Ti-Designs- Don't ride the bike outside at all initially.Take your bike and ride it on the trainer, starting with one legged drills, after you have been fit properly on the bike. Work towards eliminating rough spots in your pedal stroke with the goal of a smooth fluid srtoke that uses all muscle groups efficiently. Try to position yourself in an efficient position. Learn what muscle groups are involved in the pedal stroke and how and when to incorporate each. Add power to the stroke later.That is just a partial summary. What I like about Ti's approach is that you are able to focus on the job at hand and are not influenced by any outside stimuli. You also learn how to pedal correctly as opposed to simply repeating ad nauseum the same mistakes.


Sandy

[e-RICHIE]

3) Viv Savage - Have a good time all the time atmo.

[doofus]

3) Viv Savage - Have a good time all the time atmo.

didn't viv spontaneously combust?

[davids]

Who's the guy with Viv? It looks like Elvis Costello in another 20 years.

[palincss]

There is a lot of shit given to folks that have their bars at the same elevation as their saddles and with short top tubes and long seat tubes and a handful of spacers. The whole fred look deal. It seems to me that many of the bikes that look like this are a result of the fact that the rider hasn't been shown how to properly use a bike. If they had then the position they ended up with might not make as much sense and they would evolve into a position that is more "traditional". Certainly some folks need non-Raul Alcala positions to be comfortable and that is just the way it is. But I suspect many would benefit from a lower, longer position IF they had the riding skills that rewarded that. A chicken and egg deal of sorts.

So you think the "traditional French Fit" is evidence of a lack of riding skill? Some might think that attitude extremely arrogant.

[palincss]

it's not an education issue; it's a culture issue. some folks consume simply to
appropriate and/or co-opt something they are not (nor may ever be...) ready for,
but do it because it involves a label, a consumer good, or a hobby. atmo that's
life, and trying to find ways for everyone to ride the types of bicycles we make
is not reality. the reality is that the different cultures don't mix, but should find
ways to play well, even if it's a chore. personally, i have no problems with opinions
about bicycles. i like what i like, and i also know no one bicycle (or position) suits
all, yet these message boards are primarily about racing and racing type bicycles
rather than comfort bicycles or that ilk. many of the detractors would be better
suited on "other" types of bicycles. the education you mention would be about
letting them know as much, and courteously at that atmo.

Not everybody believes it's either necessary or desirable to be able to drive like a race driver, or ride a bicycle like a racer. For example, some folks think it's much more important to avoid auto accidents and get good gas mileage than to be able to go fast on a race track -- and who's to say they're wrong?

93 octane's $4.50 down the street. You want to improve people's cycling? Encourage them to ride a bike on those 2-4 mile errands, rather than taking the car, and teach them how to do it without crashing or getting run over. That's a lot more important IMO than anything the pro racers get up to.

[Greg Costello]

Some might think that attitude extremely arrogant.

I think those who would think that didn't read or digest Dave's entire post orat best have misinterpreted it and Dave's nature and intent, as well as failing to appreciate that most of the folks that have chosen to post here on this forum are coming from the sport from a perspective that leans towards racing/fast recreational/performance riding/enjoying the performance aspects possible with finely crafted racing bicycles rather than the persepcetive or machines designed for more casual riding such as around town, to the office or running errands to the grocery store.

What gives with the recent posts by some that appear, ATMO to designed more to stir a pot of foment and controversy where none exists than to add meaningful content?

Greg

[e-RICHIE]

Not everybody believes it's either necessary or desirable to be able to drive like a race driver, or ride a bicycle like a racer. For example, some folks think it's much more important to avoid auto accidents and get good gas mileage than to be able to go fast on a race track -- and who's to say they're wrong?

i know i didn't.

93 octane's $4.50 down the street. You want to improve people's cycling? Encourage them to ride a bike on those 2-4 mile errands, rather than taking the car, and teach them how to do it without crashing or getting run over. That's a lot more important IMO than anything the pro racers get up to.

apples and prunes atmo. we (here, and there too atmo) are not the
pedestrian cyclists and save the world by biking types at all. we're
folks with money who like nice things and surrounding ourselves with
the good feelings, however shallow that may be, that come with buying
these things, talking about them, and replacing them way too soon atmo.


ps it was nice to meet you at cirque.

[Sandy]

I do think that using "extremely arrogant" is not at all the nature of Dave Kirk- not in the least. Unfortunately internet communications are sometimes misread, misunderstood, or might not project adequately the intent of the poster. Often one individual post and especially one portion of an individual post is focused upon. On the other hand, I have met and ridden with palincss. He has a diversity of bicycles, including touring and one of the earliest Spectrum titanium race oriented bikes that I have seen. His perspective, if I may say, is not that of a racer for sure, but it is one who has a great deal of cycling experience, both riding and leading group rides of 50-75 miles or more on a very regular basis. He also knows a great deal about bikes.

I don't believe he has tried to stir a pot or anything else. Just reacting to a few posts and giving his opinion.


Sandy