Framebuilder or production line worker

[Amaro Bikes]

You don't tweak yourself or your ways to make a market, you simply wait until folks
want what you have. When enough do, you have a market. Don't over think it atmo.

€-Ricardo, I agree with you more than you might think with my words, but I don't think either you could simply decide to "wait" till enough people want your work. First of all, if no one knows about your bikes, nothing would happen, you can't want anything unless you know it exists. And that's what I was speaking about, it's not only enough to build your own bikes, but you have also aside jobs as make sure at least is known from the outside. Becoming an isolated caveman without zero contact might result in a diamond inside a stone: Many people passing over a great value without even knowing about it. No result

[e-RICHIE]

Well it's a shame we live in this world, in this era, when folks can't get the experience first and then transition it from where they received it to where they are next. Folks seem to want to wake up one day, takes a course, blog about it, and then have a market. It simply doesn't work that way. Before you have a present, you have to have a past. There's no downloadable app for a past.

PS I am speaking in general terms, and not about you.

€-Ricardo, I agree with you more than you might think with my words, but I don't think either you could simply decide to "wait" till enough people want your work. First of all, if no one knows about your bikes, nothing would happen, you can't want anything unless you know it exists. And that's what I was speaking about, it's not only enough to build your own bikes, but you have also aside jobs as make sure at least is known from the outside. Becoming an isolated caveman without zero contact might result in a diamond inside a stone: Many people passing over a great value without even knowing about it. No result

[Mike Mcdermid]

Well it's a shame we live in this world, in this era, when folks can't get the experience first and then transition it from where they received it to where they are next. Folks seem to want to wake up one day, takes a course, blog about it, and then have a market. It simply doesn't work that way. Before you have a present, you have to have a past. There's no downloadable app for a past.

PS I am speaking in general terms, and not about you.

this irks me somewhat or perhaps the acceptance that im not state of the art anymore has been a long time coming

[Amaro Bikes]

Well it's a shame we live in this world, in this era, when folks can't get the experience first and then transition it from where they received it to where they are next. Folks seem to want to wake up one day, takes a course, blog about it, and then have a market. It simply doesn't work that way. Before you have a present, you have to have a past. There's no downloadable app for a past.

PS I am speaking in general terms, and not about you.

No worries Richard, I do declare myslef guilty of having started all this wanting results even before having done any real touchable base, probably victim of this era as you said, but this does not exclude oneself responsibility on how to approach things, no matter eras or how we have been taught. Each time I look back and see what I've done, I feel kind of ashame of myslef and how wrong I was about many many many things, basically because of a wrong perspective on the matter, trying to start the house from the roof. Now it's all about trying to redeem from such previous stupidity and ignorance, which each new day I can feel how it's even bigger than I ever thought. And here is where places like this salon or the contiuous reminding words of people like you, awaring about what framebuilding is about (and wat is not) and things any new one should consider even before handing a file, are so so valuable and needed. Thanks for that

Man, I'm becoming one of the curmugdeons I didn't understood some years ago! :o

[ron l edmiston]

-- sorry right up front:
not being a handcrafted builder or desire/ability to become --- but i am the consumer/man, purchase/end user --- that will seek you out and buy your wares..

what is so wrong with learning, time to learn, mistake/retake/remake, trench time & ----
when i had the di $'s coupled with over zealous --- so many costly frowns..

early on in my corp life, i learned/grew & matured from my suto failures, not my successes..

ronnie, time no longer on my side..

[Michael Gordon]

"Well it's a shame we live in this world, in this era, when folks can't get the experience first and then transition it from where they received it to where they are next. Folks seem to want to wake up one day, takes a course, blog about it, and then have a market. It simply doesn't work that way. Before you have a present, you have to have a past. There's no downloadable app for a past."


Richard, just seeking clarification, when you say that "folks can't get the experience first", do you mean that the opportunities to learn in a production shop just simply don't exist like they did when you started? If that is the case, where is the niche to find new builders other than those who are willing to learn from courses, blogs, and on their own / trial and error. Of course it is important that the trial and error hurdle be cleared on their own before they start selling their wares.

Mike Gordon
Highland Park, IL

[e-RICHIE]

Richard, just seeking clarification, when you say that "folks can't get the experience first", do you mean that the opportunities to learn in a production shop just simply don't exist like they did when you started?

Well they don't exist. The shops that were once either vaporized, or they embraced the future and built their businesses to the point that hand labor, once a necessity but hardly a marker of quality EVEN IF it seems more organic and quainter, was replaced with automation, prefabbed sub-assemblies, and even off-shore sourcing.

If that is the case, where is the niche to find new builders other than those who are willing to learn from courses, blogs, and on their own / trial and error.

I dunno. Maybe I'll just paste in the sentiment I have been parroting for 15 or more years: the overarching need for what a framebuilder supplies has been supplanted by technologies and processes that are more efficient, better quality in many instances, and cost less to produce. So, if you wake up in 2007 with an urge to embrace this, er - niche, ask yourself if you can possibly see a profession in it when the entire industry was deconstructed and then rebuilt around nonferrous materials, art files sent to factories who specialize in what "we all do" but without the touchy-feely artiste-y fetishes that have popped up in the name of one-of-a-kind work - ask yourself if the table has a seat with your name on it. I mean this with all the love I can muster, if there's a shrinking pie and little to no commerce to be made, what is the need to perpetuate this? Doing it "this way" has worked for many, but the fork in the commercial road came by the time the 1990s rolled in and I can't see it ever changing.

Of course it is important that the trial and error hurdle be cleared on their own before they start selling their wares.

The key phrase there is selling their wares. Most Y2K cats have a complete disconnect with that concept. I'd wager the average cat with a new brand made 15 frames at most before taking money or starting a business.

The only thing that happened to the framebuilding industry is the future. When it arrived, everything that preceded it changed.

[Dallas Tex]

So, if you wake up in 2007 with an urge to embrace this, er - niche, ask yourself if you can possibly see a profession in it when the entire industry was deconstructed and then rebuilt around nonferrous materials, art files sent to factories who specialize in what "we all do" but without the touchy-feely artiste-y fetishes that have popped up in the name of one-of-a-kind work - ask yourself if the table has a seat with your name on it. I mean this with all the love I can muster, if there's a shrinking pie and little to no commerce to be made, what is the need to perpetuate this?
The only thing that happened to the framebuilding industry is the future. When it arrived, everything that preceded it changed.

IMHO, we are talking about two different niches.

The original equates to some dude in the '70s '80s '90s, banging out 40 or 50 bikes per year. He is one of the five or ten guys in the USA doing this at the time. if the consumer wanted a real, highest quality bicycle, using the best technologies of the time, this was the route one took.

Today's niche equates to more of a boutique situation as there are viable alternatives available from regular retail. Today the dude bangs out 20 or 25 bikes per year. Loads them up with custom touches and Super Record EPS, and earns (what i would think) is higher margin on each unit sold. if the consumer wants a unique, collectable, custom fitted bicycle, this is the route he takes today.

Again, IMHO, the new version of the niche has legs. Not out of neccesity, but simply based on scale. I live in a metropolitan area of 7 million folks. I'm not doing my job if 20 or 25 of them don't decide on buying a bike from me.

[e-RICHIE]

I was talking (writing) about our niche, the one you described in your post atmo.

IMHO, we are talking about two different niches.

The original equates to some dude in the '70s '80s '90s, banging out 40 or 50 bikes per year. He is one of the five or ten guys in the USA doing this at the time. if the consumer wanted a real, highest quality bicycle, using the best technologies of the time, this was the route one took.

Today's niche equates to more of a boutique situation as there are viable alternatives available from regular retail. Today the dude bangs out 20 or 25 bikes per year. Loads them up with custom touches and Super Record EPS, and earns (what i would think) is higher margin on each unit sold. if the consumer wants a unique, collectable, custom fitted bicycle, this is the route he takes today.

Again, IMHO, the new version of the niche has legs. Not out of neccesity, but simply based on scale. I live in a metropolitan area of 7 million folks. I'm not doing my job if 20 or 25 of them don't decide on buying a bike from me.

[prolix21]

Somewhat related to e-RICHIE's sentiments...

I like to browse Kickstarter and like to support projects on there b/c I like the idea of people being creative self-starters and making things; but I am constantly amazed by how half-assed many of the products turn out. Great ideas, tons of support, but zero experience and thus a total crap product.

This is because, for the most part, a lot of these people have zero background in what they are doing. Many of these projects double or triple their funding goals, yet with all this added support its never about money. They fall apart in their processes and execution.

Back to framebuilding - it's the same deal. Someone takes a class, builds a frame, empties their savings to buy a jig and thinks they're the next big thing. We've all seen how that plays out.

We live in a society that encourages this. On-demand everything with an app for just about anything you want. I'm not saying you can't go do what you want with your life or choose your career, but you've gotta have a foundation and some experience to base that off.

[ellisbriggs]

Just been re reading this thread after many years.
Have things changed for the better or worse?
It seems to me that the term framebuilder is now so meaningless that many see the definition as "someone who builds bike frames" and any attempt to define it is seen as gate keeping, divisive.

(All this is through a lens of traditional lugged framebuilding)

When I think back to starting out as an apprentice, it was a long time before I felt worthy to call myself a framebuilder and even now I question whether I will ever be as good as my mentors or other master framebuilders. Although I will continue to strive to be.

It's the fundamental skills which I see eroding. Filing for instance takes time, practice and experience to master. Once mastered though it can be done quickly. In fact it still amazes me what framebuilders back in the day managed to do to crude pressed lugs and still build a frame in a day. Yes they didn't thin them down much but they managed to make them look decent with skill. The necessity of having to shape crude lugs also forced builders to have skill.

Is it gatekeeping to promote learning the fundamental skills?

[e-RICHIE]

Is it gatekeeping to promote learning the fundamental skills?

This is a very old conversation.

Gatekeeping, the term, has different meanings to different people. In our trade, I don't think there's any gatekeeping. It's important to acknowledge that the trade we once knew, and that we've all descended from, isn't the same one we're in now. That one no longer exists. It was ushered out (Read: vaporized) over a period of decades in which the quality of manufactured bicycles evolved exponentially. In essence, back in the day (and I'm NOT trying to wax historical here, nor am I nostalgic) the trade existed to serve those who wanted something that the local bicycle shop or Big Box Brand simply couldn't produce. That's. Changed. In. Spades. Our trade is/was collateral damage.

In the wake of all the changes, and with the internet as a tool to bring people together and closer, the very act of making a frame (or anything, for that matter) introduced an entire community to what we do. Same for craft brewing. Or bean roasting. Or Wordle. Well, maybe not Wordle.

The trade has never been regulated. There have never been boundaries. There was a time, however, when people interested in knowing more could find these places and get a job and decide if it's a possible career path. More than anything, that's what has changed.

I'll add in opinion that many folks who want to hold a torch or create a stainless steel head badge don't seem interested in practice. Without practice, what good are any of us? And the meaning of the word practice also has different meanings to different people.

[steve garro]

Just been re reading this thread after many years.
Have things changed for the better or worse?


It's the fundamental skills which I see eroding. Filing for instance takes time, practice and experience to master. Once mastered though it can be done quickly.
Is it gatekeeping to promote learning the fundamental skills?

IMO the most fundamental skill now (and one which I do not have) is to design a small run of titanium frames on the computer to be made by a 3rd party in Asia although I reckon with the current spiral the industry is in even that may be in "danger" although if so you just scrap the whole affair and come up with a new name and tweak the design to fit current favor and shoot off an order for another 10 frames.

Some people are learning no doubt but following the huge group of guys in the '00's like myself who wanted to do relatively what the previous generations did but in new flavors and who largely also quit doing it leaving a big bunch of tooling for anyone who wants to buy it but who does?

It's hard and painstaking when you can just shoot over that file and order those 10 frames - hey, nice work if you can find it - these days if you can pay the bills in the bike industry you are doing OK !

- Garro.

[steve garro]

Factoid:

If you go back to page one of this thread everyone who chimes in except Richard and myself have quit building frames and I'm in the place where I'm cleaning out what tubes I have and that's going to be a wrap.
I do have quite a few............


- Garro.

[ellisbriggs]

This is a very old conversation.

Gatekeeping, the term, has different meanings to different people. In our trade, I don't think there's any gatekeeping. It's important to acknowledge that the trade we once knew, and that we've all descended from, isn't the same one we're in now. That one no longer exists. It was ushered out (Read: vaporized) over a period of decades in which the quality of manufactured bicycles evolved exponentially. In essence, back in the day (and I'm NOT trying to wax historical here, nor am I nostalgic) the trade existed to serve those who wanted something that the local bicycle shop or Big Box Brand simply couldn't produce. That's. Changed. In. Spades. Our trade is/was collateral damage.

In the wake of all the changes, and with the internet as a tool to bring people together and closer, the very act of making a frame (or anything, for that matter) introduced an entire community to what we do. Same for craft brewing. Or bean roasting. Or Wordle. Well, maybe not Wordle.

The trade has never been regulated. There have never been boundaries. There was a time, however, when people interested in knowing more could find these places and get a job and decide if it's a possible career path. More than anything, that's what has changed.

I'll add in opinion that many folks who want to hold a torch or create a stainless steel head badge don't seem interested in practice. Without practice, what good are any of us? And the meaning of the word practice also has different meanings to different people.

Customers still seem interested in lugged steel frames but younger framebuilders less so. In fact those who have routes back to the mid 20th century seem to be viewed as dinosaurs.

Obviously that period is never coming back. But we never made any money from it back then anyway. In some ways one blessing of the last 20 years has been that bike prices have gone up so much that building a custom bike is now comparable in price to many high end bikes from the big manufacturers (that's from a UK perspective).

The buzz around our small niche has somewhat dissipated in the last 5 - 10 years and I have certainly found that awareness of handmade frames among cyclists that didn't ride pre 90s is much less. The bespoked show has become more of a contemporary art show, rather than a show about bikes that people actually want to ride and the churn of new builders seems to be constant as they find out after 12 months or so that its much harder than they fantasized.

I still have another 20 years or so in me, so I'll keep batting away.

[ellisbriggs]

IMO the most fundamental skill now (and one which I do not have) is to design a small run of titanium frames on the computer to be made by a 3rd party in Asia although I reckon with the current spiral the industry is in even that may be in "danger" although if so you just scrap the whole affair and come up with a new name and tweak the design to fit current favor and shoot off an order for another 10 frames.

Some people are learning no doubt but following the huge group of guys in the '00's like myself who wanted to do relatively what the previous generations did but in new flavors and who largely also quit doing it leaving a big bunch of tooling for anyone who wants to buy it but who does?

It's hard and painstaking when you can just shoot over that file and order those 10 frames - hey, nice work if you can find it - these days if you can pay the bills in the bike industry you are doing OK !

- Garro.

You're right, if you are making a living in the bike trade for any period of time and survive then you must be doing something right.

[e-RICHIE]

<cut> interested in lugged steel frames

That's the (a) disconnect for me. Stating the obvious, the lugs only envelope the tube during the joining process. Despite their simplicity or why they even exist, the mitered sections don't know how they're connected once the cooling process ends. Grabbing lugs and including them in the assembly becomes an aesthetic, not a determinant of a frame's quality, or even the quality of its subassemblies.

I think people lean to welding, or sloping top tubes, or forks from third party suppliers because that's the state of things in the Y2K period. Adding, after a quarter of a century nearly gone by, everyone - all of us - has to look at the supply chain and ask, "what happened here?" There are no new materials makers. The dozen or so manufacturers who supplied materials to "us" are all gone. And to be honest, I can't see making a market based on old or dead stock. Ergo, newer people make frames just like, or to mirror (or both) the major manufacturers, nearly all of whom are Asian.

My advice to anyone in the trade now is to innovate, to introduce parts, to nag the ever-loving hell out of the 1-2 suppliers we still have, and encourage each maker to add something to the menu for those in our wake. To parrot myself elsewhere, "Produce shit or die." And by this I mean raw materials. Failure to adhere to this, and we're all dependent upon others.

[takashi]

I don't exactly understand why references to Asia or Asian manufacturing etc sound not so nice.

[e-RICHIE]

I don't exactly understand why references to Asia or Asian manufacturing etc sound not so nice.

There is no judgement.
But that part of the globe is where the overarching majority of goods (in our trade) are manufactured.

[ellisbriggs]

I don't exactly understand why references to Asia or Asian manufacturing etc sound not so nice.

I think Garro was just referring to ordering frame from a Taiwanese contract builder and wasn't disparaging Asian framebuilders.