Ukraine

[rabo]

From a practical standpoint. How do they get the promised anti air- and tank missiles ( Germany, the Netherlands and others) to the place they’re needed? The cities seem to be encircled and the air space under Russian control.
Molotov cocktails seem to be more a scream for support.

[Peter Polack]

From a practical standpoint. How do they get the promised anti air- and tank missiles ( Germany, the Netherlands and others) to the place they’re needed? The cities seem to be encircled and the air space under Russian control.

That's my question as well: Germany changes it's policy and says it will start shipping weapons to Ukraine, and the U.S. is increasing its materiel support. But how do get the weapons in to the country-air drop in western Ukraine? Then you've got to distribute it via ground an into the hands of the defenders...

[j44ke]

That's my question as well: Germany changes it's policy and says it will start shipping weapons to Ukraine, and the U.S. is increasing its materiel support. But how do get the weapons in to the country-air drop in western Ukraine? Then you've got to distribute it via ground an into the hands of the defenders...

I think the situation is similar to the former Yugoslavian wars. Discrete pockets of horrific battles with expanses of open countryside. Russia would have to maintain total control of Ukraine to keep out in-flow of arms. And there are people who get weapons into war zones for a living - the stuff wouldn't be coming into the country on US Army vehicles. And I bet some of those people involved in moving arms could be just as easily Russian as they could be Serbian or Turkish or whoever. Contractors in other words. Somehow at least some of the stuff got into the hands of the people who needed it.

When my friend in Prague was covering Chechnya, he and his colleague actually rented a house outside of Grozny. Each day they'd hire a driver to get them as close as possible to the front in Grozny, spend the day collecting info and shooting photos, then move reward to areas where they knew someone with a car might be. Then they'd head back to the rental. Incredibly dangerous when they were in Grozny - he was nearly killed by a tank at one point - but also profoundly surreal. And there wasn't really a front line per se, just shifting zones of activity. If the zones shifted suddenly you could be in big trouble.

[theflashunc]

Russia hasn't closed off that border with Poland, from what I've read.

Between refugees heading West and arms and material coming in, that's where it'll be coming from.

[rabo]

I think the situation is similar to the former Yugoslavian wars. Discrete pockets of horrific battles with expanses of open countryside. Russia would have to maintain total control of Ukraine to keep out in-flow of arms. And there are people who get weapons into war zones for a living - the stuff wouldn't be coming into the country on US Army vehicles. And I bet some of those people involved in moving arms could be just as easily Russian as they could be Serbian or Turkish or whoever. Contractors in other words. Somehow at least some of the stuff got into the hands of the people who needed it..

In a "normal" war, once one nation capitulates combat is over.
The impression I get is that is not the way this scenario is looked at.
The "major combat is over" is often only the start of the problems (see Iraq, Afghanistan).
Just surreal at the moment, at least from my perspective.

[vertical_doug]

It's not going to change anything, but FIFA is pathetic.

At least Polish Players did the right thing.

[vertical_doug]

Poland Rejects FIFA Ruling Russia Can Play Qualifier as RFU
2022-02-27 19:54:48.602 GMT


By ROB HARRIS
London (AP) -- FIFA backed away from immediately expelling
Russia from World Cup qualifying on Sunday but said it remained
an option, deciding instead the squad can play at neutral venues
using the “RFU" acronym for the country's football federation.
The compromise was immediately rejected by Poland, which
said it would still refuse to play Russia in a World Cup playoff
semifinal, which is scheduled for March 24.
“Today’s FIFA decision is totally unacceptable,” Polish
football federation president Cezary Kulesza tweeted. “We are
not interested in participating in this game of appearances. Our
stance remains intact: Polish National Team will NOT PLAY with
Russia, no matter what the name of the team is.”
The unanimous ruling by the FIFA Bureau, featuring the six
regional football confederation presidents, was also that the
Russian flag and anthem can't be associated with the team that
would use the acronym for the Russian Football Union.
“FIFA will continue its ongoing dialogue with the IOC, UEFA
and other sport organizations to determine any additional
measures or sanctions," FIFA said in a statement, “including a
potential exclusion from competitions, that shall be applied in
the near future should the situation not be improving rapidly.”
The decision adopts the Court of Arbitration for Sport
ruling before the invasion of Ukraine, punishing Russia's cover-
up of the investigation into state-sponsored doping. It meant
the Russians had to compete at the last two Olympics as the ROC
team. FIFA had stalled implementing the ban on Russia competing
under the country's name until a potential qualification the
World Cup.
The winner of the Russia-Poland playoff is due to host
Sweden or the Czech Republic on March 29 to decide who advances
to the Nov. 21-Dec. 18 World Cup in Qatar.
The Czech Republic joined Poland and Sweden on Sunday in
saying it would refuse to play Russia.
“The Czech FA executive committee, staff members and
players of the national team agreed it’s not possible to play
against the Russian national team in the current situation, not
even on the neutral venue,” the federation said in a statement.
“We all want the war to end as soon as possible.”
FIFA said it had engaged with the three associations and
would remain in “close contact to seek to find appropriate and
acceptable solutions together.”
Separately, the English Football Association announced that
its national teams would refuse to play Russia for the
“foreseeable future.” Russia has qualified for the Women's
European Championship which is being hosted by England in June.
The English FA said the decision was taken “out of
solidarity with the Ukraine and to wholeheartedly condemn the
atrocities being committed by the Russian leadership."
The RFU’s president is Aleksandr Dyukov, who is chief
executive of a subsidiary of state-owned energy giant Gazprom
and also sits on the UEFA executive committee.
In France, the football federation president Noël Le Graët
told the Le Parisien daily Sunday that he was leaning toward
excluding Russia from the World Cup.
“The world of sport, and in particular football, cannot
remain neutral,” said Le Graët, who sits on the ruling FIFA
Council and has recently been a close ally of the governing
body's president, Gianni Infantino.
A strict reading of FIFA's World Cup regulations would even
make the Polish, Swedish and Czech federations liable to
disciplinary action and having to pay fines and compensation if
they wouldn't play Russia.
In 1992, however, FIFA and UEFA removed Yugoslavia from its
competitions following United Nations sanctions imposed when war
broke out in the Balkans.
The FIFA Bureau, which is chaired by Infantino, includes
UEFA President Aleksander Ceferin.
UEFA on Friday pulled the 2022 Champions League final from
St. Petersburg, moving it to Paris, and said Russian and
Ukrainian teams in its competitions must play home games in
neutral countries. UEFA allowed Spartak Moscow to continue
playing in the second-tier Europa League's round of 16.
As the attack of Ukraine entered a fourth day on Sunday,
Russian President Vladimir Putin temporarily lost his most
senior official position in world sports. The International Judo
Federation cited “the ongoing war conflict in Ukraine” for
suspending Putin’s honorary president status.
The Russian president is a keen judoka and attended the
sport at the 2012 London Olympics.
In Putin's other favorite sport, ice hockey, Latvian club
Dinamo Riga withdrew Sunday from the Russian-owned and run
Kontinental Hockey League citing the “military and humanitarian
crisis.”

[j44ke]

Katyn Woods.

[BBB]

I think Trump is right in that Putin would not have invaded if he was president. According to Trump, this is because he told Putin he'd bomb Moscow if they did. I think the real reason is as an isolationist, and anti-Nato, Trump was more valuable to Russian goals than invading Ukraine.

Exactly! Which is of course the opposite to the tough talking uber negotiator that Trump likes to fool himself that he is.

[BBB]

Katyn Woods.

The world might be temporarily going through a mad patch, but surely not that mad?

[j44ke]

The world might be temporarily going through a mad patch, but surely not that mad?

No, sorry. I mean how could FIFA expect Poland to play Russia at a time like this, especially with the memory of Katyn Woods still such a potent element of Polish-Russian history.

This is a big deal for these countries. I just spoke with friends in Prague this morning. She works in a school, and they've just offered counseling to staff who are having problems with anxiety and insomnia. This history perhaps seems distant but it is very real to many people in Eastern Europe, and traumas and anger are welling up from the past.

[gregl]

This is a big deal for these countries. I just spoke with friends in Prague this morning. She works in a school, and they've just offered counseling to staff who are having problems with anxiety and insomnia. This history perhaps seems distant but it is very real to many people in Eastern Europe, and traumas and anger are welling up from the past.

Indeed. After WW2, my grandmother sponsored a former employee to emigrate to the US from Austria. She lived with my grandmother for the rest of her life. She told me, my sisters, and cousins that life under Soviet occupation after the war was worse than under Nazi German occupation during the war. I cannot even imagine the horrible experiences she endured.

Greg

[BBB]

No, sorry. I mean how could FIFA expect Poland to play Russia at a time like this, especially with the memory of Katyn Woods still such a potent element of Polish-Russian history.

This is a big deal for these countries. I just spoke with friends in Prague this morning. She works in a school, and they've just offered counseling to staff who are having problems with anxiety and insomnia. This history perhaps seems distant but it is very real to many people in Eastern Europe, and traumas and anger are welling up from the past.

Indeed. I figured that's what you meant and FIFA aren't exactly the organisation you want to make decisions about what the right thing to do is.

It is a big deal. My Mum had a Latvian friend she first knew when I was quite young. They were reasonably well off and faced the difficult choice of what to do with the Russians on one side and the Germans on the other during WW11. I can't recall the specifics, but they escaped and eventually made their way to Australia, with nothing but some jewellery that had been sewn into their clothes. In any event, one of this lady's adult daughters was never quite right (at least that is my recollection from childhood) and no doubt she suffered from PTSD, which in turn stopped her from having a normal life. When her Mum passed away in her 90s, the daughter took to calling my Mum at all hours of the night in a panic. She has since passed on as well. Very sad.

[rabo]

Warsaw uprising with the Russians just watching maybe even worse. The Polish always get the bad end of the stick throughout history it seems.

[j44ke]

Warsaw uprising with the Russians just watching maybe even worse. The Polish always get the bad end of the stick throughout history it seems.

Well, not as bad as the Jews, but yes, Warsaw is built on its own rubble and the current buildings have the cracks to prove it.

[Marvinlungwitz]

Perhaps Putin seems smart to those who are even less so.

“Russian President Vladimir Putin's brazen and unprovoked assault on Ukraine is fast turning his fears of a more resolute Europe, and potentially expanded NATO alliance, into a self-fulfilling prophecy.
NATO has come together behind stiff economic sanctions against Moscow. Finland and Sweden, after decades of neutrality, have signaled a new interest in joining the alliance while more autocratic members of the defense pact have excoriated Moscow”. (From the LA Times).

[gregl]

Perhaps Putin seems smart to those who are even less so.

To paraphrase a description of another autocratic, delusional leader, Putin is “…a stupid person’s idea of a smart man, a poor person’s idea of a rich man, and a weak person’s idea of a strong man.”

Greg

[rabo]

The Russians have more chess grandmasters than about anyone. I will never underestimate them, since my laptop beats me consistently at beginners level.

[jimcav]

Indeed. After WW2, my grandmother sponsored a former employee to emigrate to the US from Austria. She lived with my grandmother for the rest of her life. She told me, my sisters, and cousins that life under Soviet occupation after the war was worse than under Nazi German occupation during the war. I cannot even imagine the horrible experiences she endured.

Greg

this is exactly what I heard from my mom's side of the family regarding Yugoslavia--worse under USSR. Everyone scraped and saved trying to get as many family and then friends to follow to America. My mom came over as a infant/toddler on the last passenger sail of the SS Rex, her dad having made it 1st and working painting ships and eventually Liberty ships in Portland, OR.

[Corso]

Exactly! Which is of course the opposite to the tough talking uber negotiator that Trump likes to fool himself that he is.

With all that's happening, this is how you choose to add to this thread? Hard proof that TDS has yet to be cured.

Fact: Putin did not invade while Trump was President. For whatever reason, for whatever jokes you want to make, it's still a fact.

Can you simply stop now? Truce?