Trangender & Sports

[vertical_doug]

Even if someone wanted to misrepresent themselves in order to win a race, wouldn't it be massively easier just to lie about their age or race down a category?

I thought we were discussing cycling. Are we now discussing Little League and American parents?

[colker]

What physical advantages? At the top level, there are rules in place. Hormone replacement therapy is required for a full year for trans-women to compete in top-level (Olympic or NCAA) sport. It's not a performance enhancer. For amateur racers, to the best of my knowledge, there hasn't been a single instance of a CIS-male claiming to identify as a woman in order to win a bike race.

Even if someone wanted to misrepresent themselves in order to win a race, wouldn't it be massively easier just to lie about their age or race down a category?

A man who became a woman has kept all the physical advantage of a man over a woman. How fuzzy, unclear or complicated that is? A transgender is not necessarily physically an in between. A transgender is a guy who feels he should be a gal (or the other way around). If a guy, if he competes against a girl in the high levels of the sport he has a physical advantage. Where do you disagree w/ any of what i am saying?

[sk_tle]

A man who became a woman has kept all the physical advantage of a man over a woman.

Are you talking about those who took the treatments and/or got surgery ? Sources ?

[bigbill]

A man who became a woman has kept all the physical advantage of a man over a woman. How fuzzy, unclear or complicated that is? A transgender is not necessarily physically an in between. A transgender is a guy who feels he should be a gal (or the other way around). If a guy, if he competes against a girl in the high levels of the sport he has a physical advantage. Where do you disagree w/ any of what i am saying?

I have a few former Navy friends that have had the whole process to become a woman including surgery, counseling, hormones, etc. Other than being 6' tall and a little broad in the shoulders, they are feminine. If we're talking basketball, they'd have an advantage over the average woman, for all other sports they are women and didn't retain all their muscle mass. One regretted waiting so long because of male pattern baldness that ensured a lifetime of wigs.

[colker]

I have a few former Navy friends that have had the whole process to become a woman including surgery, counseling, hormones, etc. Other than being 6' tall and a little broad in the shoulders, they are feminine. If we're talking basketball, they'd have an advantage over the average woman, for all other sports they are women and didn't retain all their muscle mass. One regretted waiting so long because of male pattern baldness that ensured a lifetime of wigs.

Do you lose muscle capacity w/ that hormone treatment?

[Matthew Strongin]

Do you lose muscle capacity w/ that hormone treatment?

It is my understanding that, yes, hormone replacement therapy in male to female transitions will decrease muscle mass and strength along with many other changes that you would expect when transitioning to be a woman.

[zachateseverything]

A man who became a woman has kept all the physical advantage of a man over a woman. How fuzzy, unclear or complicated that is? A transgender is not necessarily physically an in between. A transgender is a guy who feels he should be a gal (or the other way around). If a guy, if he competes against a girl in the high levels of the sport he has a physical advantage. Where do you disagree w/ any of what i am saying?

with hormone therapy, which is what every trans athlete has to go through to compete at elite levels, there's a significant reduction in both muscle mass and red blood cell count for those transitioning to female.

also, can you please stop referring to male-to-female transgender people as "he" and "him?" I know you likely don't intend it to be so, but it can be viewed as highly offensive to intentionally mis-gender someone.

[Will Neide]

with hormone therapy, which is what every trans athlete has to go through to compete at elite levels, there's a significant reduction in both muscle mass and red blood cell count for those transitioning to female.
also, can you please stop referring to male-to-female transgender people as "he" and "him?" I know you likely don't intend it to be so, but it can be viewed as highly offensive to intentionally mis-gender someone.

For the sake of curiosity, what mechanisms, via medical treatment, promote the loss of muscle and cause the individual to be anemic? A significant reduction in RBC counts would be cause for concern for the health of the individual regardless of sex.

[colker]

also, can you please stop referring to male-to-female transgender people as "he" and "him?" I know you likely don't intend it to be so, but it can be viewed as highly offensive to intentionally mis-gender someone.

Why would i intend to offend transgenders? My beef is not w/ them... on the contrary: my beef is w/ using the issue to reengineer society. My beef is w/ politics... My beef is w/ those who are not transgenders but feel entitled to champion the cause.

[defspace]

For the sake of curiosity, what mechanisms, via medical treatment, promote the loss of muscle and cause the individual to be anemic? A significant reduction in RBC counts would be cause for concern for the health of the individual regardless of sex.

Okay, lemme see how much of my biology I remember.

Testosterone increases messenger RNA production. mRNA brings all those amino acids to the ribosomes where they're assembled into proteins. In this case, we're talking about assembling muscle tissue. With more mRNA, more protein assembly, more muscle tissue assembly, more muscle mass.

Why does it go away? I guess because muscle is metabolically expensive to maintain. It's not adaptive to carry around excess muscle. If you don't have the testosterone levels to maintain that muscle, it's going to go away. Just think about how your average office worker couch potato man is more muscular than the average office worker couch potato woman. All else equal, having male-levels of testosterone means more muscle mass.

Why does RBC count drop? I'm not sure about that. It could just be a function of lower ribosomal activity.

If anyone who actually knows about physiology chimes in, ignore anything I said above.

[JoB]

Okay, lemme see how much of my biology I remember.

Testosterone increases messenger RNA production. mRNA brings all those amino acids to the ribosomes where they're assembled into proteins. In this case, we're talking about assembling muscle tissue. With more mRNA, more protein assembly, more muscle tissue assembly, more muscle mass.

Why does it go away? I guess because muscle is metabolically expensive to maintain. It's not adaptive to carry around excess muscle. If you don't have the testosterone levels to maintain that muscle, it's going to go away. Just think about how your average office worker couch potato man is more muscular than the average office worker couch potato woman. All else equal, having male-levels of testosterone means more muscle mass.

Why does RBC count drop? I'm not sure about that. It could just be a function of lower ribosomal activity.

If anyone who actually knows about physiology chimes in, ignore anything I said above.

testosterone is an anabolic steroid which means that it is a lipid molecule (steroid - a cholesterol derivative) that leads to tissue growth (anabolic). Being a lipid, it's able to cross the cell and nuclear membranes (which themselves are mostly lipid membranes) and cause changes in gene expression and ultimately protein production. It is a little more complicated than that but that's about it.

As for the effects of testosterone on RBC count, women have a) much lower testo concentrations on average, and b) on average 5-10% points or so lower hematocrit (the %age of red blood cells in blood) than men.

Testosterone treatment increases hematocrit, probably in part by EPO production in the kidney and increased availability of iron, and an interplay between the two: Testosterone Induces Erythrocytosis via Increased Erythropoietin and Suppressed Hepcidin: Evidence for a New Erythropoietin/Hemoglobin Set Point

Long story short: if you miss the growth factor (testosterone), you are going to lose some tissue mass and decrease hematocrit (and oxygen transport capacity).

[Will Neide]

testosterone is an anabolic steroid which means that it is a lipid molecule (steroid - a cholesterol derivative) that leads to tissue growth (anabolic). Being a lipid, it's able to cross the cell and nuclear membranes (which themselves are mostly lipid membranes) and cause changes in gene expression and ultimately protein production. It is a little more complicated than that but that's about it.

As for the effects of testosterone on RBC count, women have a) much lower testo concentrations on average, and b) on average 5-10% points or so lower hematocrit (the %age of red blood cells in blood) than men.

Testosterone treatment increases hematocrit, probably in part by EPO production in the kidney and increased availability of iron, and an interplay between the two: Testosterone Induces Erythrocytosis via Increased Erythropoietin and Suppressed Hepcidin: Evidence for a New Erythropoietin/Hemoglobin Set Point

Long story short: if you miss the growth factor (testosterone), you are going to lose some tissue mass and decrease hematocrit (and oxygen transport capacity).

Just to add my thoughts to your factually accurate post, and to tie it in somewhat to the question of transgender and sports, not to be confused with the transgender issue as a whole, the issue of hormone therapy should be addressed for competitive reasons. The effects of such treatments, and enforcement of PED's, has some overlap. I'm not so much interested in the psychological aspect, or someone's feelings in regards to how they choose to identify, but when competing, we do expect some kind of equal footing. There are natural physiologic differences between male and female. Hormone therapy, testosterone, or testosterone suppression, has a performance enhancing ability in naturally born females, and deleterious effects on naturally born men. To what degree those effects occur is variable, but the effects are present. Suppression of testosterone, and indirectly the decrease in rbc production, in naturally born males doesn't necessarily make them anemic, and a 5-10% is most likely clinically insignificant. The male and female normal ranges overlap quite a bit that under normal everyday people, it's not a huge deal. However, with so much scrutiny in our sport on biopassports, and hgb/hct levels, it would seem that the governing bodies should cast some scrutiny on testosterone treatments.

I fall in the camp that feels naturally born males should compete with males only, regardless of desire to identify as female. Any hormone therapies would have deleterious effects, in comparison to natural males, but being naturally born male, have advantages over naturally born females. Thus, I would support female competitors that felt disadvantaged competing against a naturally born male.

On the flip side, I don't think it appropriate for naturally born females on testosterone therapy to compete with females. I would support them being able to compete with males.

My opinions on this matter, which is competition and sports, is not ignorant of the psychological effects these folks may be going through, but there needs to be a line drawn somewhere. There are overriding physiological and genetic factors at play that, imo, supersede psychological desires in regards to competitions of strength and speed.

[boots2000]

The only solution to drugs and sports is to do away with the TUE and ban everything.
Yes, there will be some casualties- transgender folks and also people with legitimate medical issues.
But it is the only way to close the loophole-

[JoB]

Just to add my thoughts to your factually accurate post, and to tie it in somewhat to the question of transgender and sports, not to be confused with the transgender issue as a whole, the issue of hormone therapy should be addressed for competitive reasons. The effects of such treatments, and enforcement of PED's, has some overlap. I'm not so much interested in the psychological aspect, or someone's feelings in regards to how they choose to identify, but when competing, we do expect some kind of equal footing. There are natural physiologic differences between male and female. Hormone therapy, testosterone, or testosterone suppression, has a performance enhancing ability in naturally born females, and deleterious effects on naturally born men. To what degree those effects occur is variable, but the effects are present. Suppression of testosterone, and indirectly the decrease in rbc production, in naturally born males doesn't necessarily make them anemic, and a 5-10% is most likely clinically insignificant. The male and female normal ranges overlap quite a bit that under normal everyday people, it's not a huge deal. However, with so much scrutiny in our sport on biopassports, and hgb/hct levels, it would seem that the governing bodies should cast some scrutiny on testosterone treatments.

I fall in the camp that feels naturally born males should compete with males only, regardless of desire to identify as female. Any hormone therapies would have deleterious effects, in comparison to natural males, but being naturally born male, have advantages over naturally born females. Thus, I would support female competitors that felt disadvantaged competing against a naturally born male.

On the flip side, I don't think it appropriate for naturally born females on testosterone therapy to compete with females. I would support them being able to compete with males.

My opinions on this matter, which is competition and sports, is not ignorant of the psychological effects these folks may be going through, but there needs to be a line drawn somewhere. There are overriding physiological and genetic factors at play that, imo, supersede psychological desires in regards to competitions of strength and speed.

Testosterone use in men can be beneficial to performance though it depends on which performance you assess (strength/power vs. endurance) and the context in which this assessment occurs (e.g., athlete age, natural endogenous testo production, 'fully topped off and rested' vs. 'following an exhausting day of racing', etc.)

My opinion is that in amateur sports, I am grateful that I live in a society in which people have the choice of gender reassignment, and that their inclusion outweighs the perceived disadvantages of (women) athletes ... but I am not a woman competing against MTF athletes.

Of note, I just did a lit search and our knowledge of performance changes in transgender athletes is very sparse, especially and obviously in international-caliber level athletes.

Some interesting reading: Beyond Fairness: The Biology of Inclusion for Transgender a... : Current Sports Medicine Reports

Thanks for the mostly civil discussion, all.

[Todd Amunrud]

Snubbed by one team, transgender football player feels at home at last | Minnesota Public Radio News

Here's an article of a woman who was denied a position for a semi-pro female football team. There is some reference to advantages and disadvantages by Joanna Harper, a medical physicist who advises the IOC on this specific issue.

[dgaddis]

Bringing this back up, because a transgender woman just won a world's track cycling event. If you want to listen to the podcast (I'm starting it now), skip ahead to 28:30 to hear the interview with her.

Podcast: Transgender rider Rachel McKinnon; Thomas Dekker – VeloNews.com

[false_aesthetic]

skip ahead to 28:30 to hear the interview with her.

Podcast: Transgender rider Rachel McKinnon; Thomas Dekker – VeloNews.com

Listened to this last night at the shop. It's really worth the time. Thanks for suggesting.

[dgaddis]

More on the subject ::

Commentary: The complicated case of transgender cyclist Dr. Rachel McKinnon – VeloNews.com

In Summary :: Yeah, it's complicated, and no matter what the rules are, someone isn't going to like it. Life isn't fair, no one is created equal, and the current rules are inclusive.

[ericpmoss]

I find myself agreeing with boots2000 on this. Imagine Alexandr Karelin getting gender reassignment and entering women's wrestling. If you have never seen a video of the guy, he scared world class wrestlers into submitting before the match rather than risking being crippled. Yes, it's an outlier, but to me, athletic competition *for recognition* is a choice, and one should go into it with what they were born with.

[mjbabcock]

I just worry for the lost sponsorship dollars those poor women who were relegated to second and third place for Master’s Women’s match sprint...the winner is laughing all the way to the bank. I’ll bet after the reassignment surgery expenses, she’s probably a billionaire!

Seriously folks, anyone who takes their life through the greuling reassignment process isn’t doing it for the winnings. You can toss out some bad ass wrestler as an example, but they simply aren’t transgendered. That’s not how they are wired up.

As for “re-engineering society,” it’s always engineered to benefit one group over another. Historically trans people were most likely to be murdered or to commit suicide, so “re-engineering” so that they can participate in society...I’m cool with that.