The Vaccine Thread

[Clean39T]

The Pandemic is going to end. Obesity, poverty and addiction will only get worse.

So weird that progressives are so myopic to the nature of this plague. It impacts the poor in different ways. Full stop. Show me high SES unvaccinated young or old clogging up the hospital system and we'll have a different conversation. Or maybe I'm being dense.

Yeah I don't get where from what I said you got that I would not acknowledge that Covid is impacting the economically and socially disadvantaged in different ways.. I'm of course in favor of outreach and education programs on the vaccine for marginalized communities, significantly expanding safety nets, etc. I didn't think that was what we were talking about here.

[Clean39T]

I think inequity is the more persistent virus.

Well, I'll certainly tip my hat to that.. This virus is exposing tears in the social fabric that have been growing for decades. If we somehow come out of it with universal healthcare, universal basic income, free college, massive investments in K-12 education, a closing of tax loopholes, and addressing the need for affordable housing - all while chipping away at climate change issues - maybe it will all have been worth it - in the grand scheme..

In the meantime, what to do about the here and now.

I suppose its turtles to the bottom.

Thanks for the challenging questions and dialogue - it's been helpful.

[takashi]

The Pandemic is going to end. Obesity, poverty and addiction will only get worse.

So weird that progressives are so myopic to the nature of this plague. It impacts the poor in different ways. Full stop. Show me high SES unvaccinated young or old clogging up the hospital system and we'll have a different conversation. Or maybe I'm being dense.

The disproportionally unaffected:

Attachment 119450

nvm

[colker]

Well, I'll certainly tip my hat to that.. This virus is exposing tears in the social fabric that have been growing for decades. If we somehow come out of it with universal healthcare, universal basic income, free college, massive investments in K-12 education, a closing of tax loopholes, and addressing the need for affordable housing - all while chipping away at climate change issues - maybe it will all have been worth it - in the grand scheme..

In the meantime, what to do about the here and now.

I suppose its turtles to the bottom.

Thanks for the challenging questions and dialogue - it's been helpful.

We see the opposite going on: a significant increase in inequity and social injustice in 2020. A luxurious market booming. Wealth concentrating in higher proportions.
The pandemic bumped the flaws of the economic model. And this from watching western societies! i believe nations like Russia or INdia should be even worse.

[colker]

The Pandemic is going to end. Obesity, poverty and addiction will only get worse.

So weird that progressives are so myopic to the nature of this plague. It impacts the poor in different ways. Full stop. Show me high SES unvaccinated young or old clogging up the hospital system and we'll have a different conversation. Or maybe I'm being dense.

The disproportionally unaffected:

Attachment 119450

The pandemic is boosting social inequality but it´s not the cause of it. It´s in the economic model: wall street makes trillions out of producing nothing. Big decisions are made based on those trillions and that nothingness. People suffer and live miserably due to those decisions. Even though money is being made out of the health crisis circumstances, poverty issues are due to lack of social responsability: we need more of it, not less. Freedom is a beautifull word but equal opportunities, although less poetic, is more of an urgent matter.

[beeatnik]

A few years ago I was driving from Yosemite to LA and listening to NPR. They were reporting on black maternal health disparities. There was speculation that racism and other disparities which are determinants of SES were affecting black women at essentially a cellular level.

https://www.nationalpartnership.org/...al-health.html

This stuck with me:

Black women’s heightened risk of pregnancy-related death spans income and education levels

It informs how I think about the Pandemic.

The pandemic is boosting social inequality but it´s not the cause of it. It´s in the economic model: wall street makes trillions out of producing nothing. Big decisions are made based on those trillions and that nothingness. People suffer and live miserably due to those decisions. Even though money is being made out of the health crisis circumstances, poverty issues are due to lack of social responsability: we need more of it, not less. Freedom is a beautifull word but equal opportunities, although less poetic, is more of an urgent matter.

[Clean39T]

We see the opposite going on: a significant increase in inequity and social injustice in 2020. A luxurious market booming. Wealth concentrating in higher proportions.
The pandemic bumped the flaws of the economic model. And this from watching western societies! i believe nations like Russia or INdia should be even worse.

The pandemic is boosting social inequality but it´s not the cause of it. It´s in the economic model: wall street makes trillions out of producing nothing. Big decisions are made based on those trillions and that nothingness. People suffer and live miserably due to those decisions. Even though money is being made out of the health crisis circumstances, poverty issues are due to lack of social responsability: we need more of it, not less. Freedom is a beautifull word but equal opportunities, although less poetic, is more of an urgent matter.

Definitely agree with you on all of that.. I was being very tongue-in-cheek above.

[Clean39T]

All this preaching just to say I get pissed at people too, but I try really hard not to be vindictive. And I am definitely a work in progress.

I've been turning this around in my head for hours. I am incredibly pissed, frustrated, and annoyed - but I too don't want to lose my compassion or spend all of my time focused on everything that is wrong and falling apart in the world. I need to find some way to connect to something positive and healing, and put my energy into that. Thanks again (you and @beeatnik) for challenging me today - it's what I needed.

[jimcav]

JimCav, my fully vaccinated wife is showing early signs of Long Covid. Any resources you can share?
.

1st, sorry to hear, but hopefully this soon from infection, it isn't actually long covid, but simply a protracted case. Long haul stuff sucks, truly, and mine is mild. Sadly there isn't much published yet. I read pre-publish stuff at medrxiv.org The best resource I know is the Cleveland Clinic ReCOVery Clinic. Cedars may have something, but I don't know. From my own experience, and what I've read, do NOT push to soon to get back to normal. As my navy Hawaiian shipmates used to say tell her "train by right spirit", ie listen to your (her) body.

[Clean39T]

LA Times article on COVID in Oregon - it's the crossover event this sub has been waiting for..

https://www.latimes.com/world-nation...elta-hospitals

Health workers in southern and central Oregon are dismayed that the vaccination drive appears to have stalled and members of the public seem unaware or unconcerned about the hospital crisis.

“Who knows, I might die of COVID next week, but I sincerely doubt it,” said Cassandra Torgrimson, a 49-year-old school receptionist in Bend.

She said that she quit a previous retail job to avoid having to wear a mask and saw no need to get vaccinated, believing that herbs, essential oils and fresh air would keep her healthy.

Another resident, Mary Moore, said she did get vaccinated, but also shunned masks and regarded health workers’ complaints as overblown.

“They’re whining,” said Moore, 59, a retired hospital administrative worker. “That’s the job they signed up for.”

Statistics have gotten worse since the article ran..

30% positivity rate for those tested in a few of the larger rural counties where the hospitals are full ....and hundreds of people are still showing up to protest the mask mandate and call Covid a hoax.

https://www.kdrv.com/content/news/Va...575171961.html

[bigbill]

We have a non-vaccinated long time employee on a respirator with all kinds of co-morbidity issues that will likely die in the next 24 hours. We're offering another shot clinic tomorrow and next Friday, maybe we will get some folk's attention. All they have to do is swing past the training room on their way back from lunch and get a shot.

[Clean39T]

We have a non-vaccinated long time employee on a respirator with all kinds of co-morbidity issues that will likely die in the next 24 hours. We're offering another shot clinic tomorrow and next Friday, maybe we will get some folk's attention. All they have to do is swing past the training room on their way back from lunch and get a shot.

Thank you for taking the initiative to make it easy for them to get it..

[colker]

I suspect there is a powerfull death wish going on the minds of non vacciners.

[jimcav]

Holy smokes. I have struggled to understand the amazing spread of anti-science BS and the death of respect for actual expertise. I see the role of social media, and of primetime "news" shows sticking people in a chair and asking them opinions as if they are the true experts in their field, when in fact many are not actual experts.

After thinking about it more, I fear this is all just a negative, extreme example of a manifestation of perhaps our (humankind's) greatest attribute: imagination. One can argue about how opposable thumbs or ability to sweat are keys to our survival, but I think our collective ability to believe in things that aren't actually there is the key. "Do unto others" requires imagination. We believe in money, the idea of civilization and society. Now that imagination has been appealed to and manipulated in a terrible way.

I struggle for a true analogy, but the ability of individuals to believe in something awful, that isn't true, isn't a new thing. There is a long list (just watch "exterminate all the brutes"), but I am saddened to see this continue to play out, and can see no reason other than a crazy Machiavellian political maneuver for power. Even then, if what I understand to be true about the typical margins in many areas, the number dying or really, really negatively impacted by Delta variant is going to swing things the wrong way for those making this calculation for political gain).

I'm starting to prefer truly outlandish bad-movie scenarios. Like where the evil scientist makes a virus, Thanos-style, to reduce the population. What is playing out is just awful to see--the callous disregard for others' health and safety. Perhaps worse, political leaders, those that WANT to be such leaders, and those out for ratings and/or $, just see opportunity in the collective belief in the lies and false presentations; and, instead of confronting the lies and moving things to a better place, they endorse the false narratives and cater their actions to curry favor from those that believe in the lies.

[beeatnik]

I suspect there is a powerfull death wish going on the minds of non vacciners.

Just talked to a 35 year old friend who spent two weeks in the hospital with Covid-19. Last year he was working in production and testing regularly. He was exposed multiple times at work (3 shutdowns) and from family members (mostly this year). For him getting vaccinated was not a priority since he felt as if he was doing a good job avoiding infection. Wonder how common that mentality is with people in their 20s and 30s.

[Clean39T]

Holy smokes. I have struggled to understand the amazing spread of anti-science BS and the death of respect for actual expertise. I see the role of social media, and of primetime "news" shows sticking people in a chair and asking them opinions as if they are the true experts in their field, when in fact many are not actual experts.

The Death of Expertise

At the bottom of all of it, Nichols finds “a growing wave of narcissism.” Voters increasingly see political figures as extensions of themselves—“He’s just like me!”—imagining shared personalities and values. Narcissism elevates feelings above facts, and it breeds social resentment, a major driver, Nichols believes, of the revolt against expertise. “People cannot accept ever being at a disadvantage in a conversation with anybody else,” he says. “It’s a persistent insecurity that goads people into having to say that they know something even when they don’t. Which didn’t used to be the case—we used to be a much more reasonable culture. You know, everybody doesn’t have to know everything.”

Something else, too, gnaws at Nichols: “It strikes me that the affluence and convenience of modern society lull people into thinking that it all kind of happens magically, without any human intervention. People live in a world that functions, and not just because of technical experts, but policy experts too.” Americans can board an airplane and fly almost anywhere in the world, unencumbered—a triumph of pilots and aeronautical engineers, but also of diplomats and air-traffic control regulators and transportation security policymakers. “People have just gotten used to remarkable ease,” he says. “They look around and say, ‘How hard could this be?’ You know? ‘How hard can it be?’…That idea is totally animating our political life right now. People say, ‘We’ll elect Donald Trump and he’ll just put in a bunch of guys. We don’t need those experts. That’s the swamp. Because, really, how hard can any of this be?’”

He wrote his book largely before the rise of Trumpism, and years before Covid, but everything in it goes to show how certain populations in the USA were primed to be wrecked by what has come.

To wit.. this graphic:

Vaccine.jpg

Interestingly, it doesn't seem to follow the same pattern in Canada right now. From data I've seen while Alberta strongly outpaced BC earlier this year in infections per 100K, BC and Alberta are neck and neck right now. Hmm.

[gregl]

Holy smokes. I have struggled to understand the amazing spread of anti-science BS and the death of respect for actual expertise.

To me, there are two major factors at work here. First is a distrust for institutions, both government and private. This distrust is supported by some seeking political and financial power. They spew propaganda and lies disguised as news. The second major factor is humankind’s innate fears and search for simple answers. Lies and conspiracy theories are much easier to believe for ~40% of the population rather than complicated truths. Critical thinking skills? These folks never learned them, or were never taught them. People don’t like to be uncomfortable. The “anti-science BS” gives them comfort. Don’t try to make sense of the nonsensical. It will only give you headaches. All we can do is try to be logical, reasonable, and respectful in our daily lives. If we all make a positive impact in our little corners of the world, we improve the world as a whole.

Greg

[bigbill]

To me, there are two major factors at work here. First is a distrust for institutions, both government and private. This distrust is supported by some seeking political and financial power. They spew propaganda and lies disguised as news. The second major factor is humankind’s innate fears and search for simple answers. Lies and conspiracy theories are much easier to believe for ~40% of the population rather than complicated truths. Critical thinking skills? These folks never learned them, or were never taught them. People don’t like to be uncomfortable. The “anti-science BS” gives them comfort. Don’t try to make sense of the nonsensical. It will only give you headaches. All we can do is try to be logical, reasonable, and respectful in our daily lives. If we all make a positive impact in our little corners of the world, we improve the world as a whole.

Greg

Just spit-balling here, flood the workspace with some kind of anesthesia and while the employees are unconscious give them all a J&J jab regardless of status. Ear tags and radio collars are optional.

[j44ke]

Just talked to a 35 year old friend who spent two weeks in the hospital with Covid-19. Last year he was working in production and testing regularly. He was exposed multiple times at work (3 shutdowns) and from family members (mostly this year). For him getting vaccinated was not a priority since he felt as if he was doing a good job avoiding infection. Wonder how common that mentality is with people in their 20s and 30s.

I'd say pretty common. It fits with the natural tendencies of that age pretty well.

[gregl]

Just spit-balling here, flood the workspace with some kind of anesthesia and while the employees are unconscious give them all a J&J jab regardless of status. Ear tags and radio collars are optional.

In a similar vein, I was thinking of a hunting season, but with J&J dart guns instead of rifles and shotguns. In upstate NY, everybody hunts. Heck, some school districts will close on the first day of deer season (“superintendent’s conference day…”) since there will be so many absences. So open up a hunting season. Charge a small license fee (and only issue licenses to those with proof of vaccination), $5 bounty for each successful jab, and no bag limit. We’d have 99.999% vaccinated in a week or two.

Greg