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Thread: 2020 Political Chatter

  1. #1341
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    Default Re: 2020 Political Chatter

    When Did Republicans Start Hating Facts? | New York Times

    "Republicans spent most of 2020 rejecting science in the face of a runaway pandemic; now they’re rejecting democracy in the face of a clear election loss.

    What do these rejections have in common? In each case, one of America’s two major parties simply refused to accept facts it didn’t like.

    I’m not sure it’s right to say Republicans “believe” that, say, wearing face masks is useless or that there was widespread voter fraud. Framing the issue as one of belief suggests that some kind of evidence might change party loyalists’ minds.

    In reality, what Republicans say they believe flows from what they want to do, whether it’s ignore a deadly disease or stay in power despite the voters’ verdict.

    In other words, the point isn’t that the G.O.P. believes untrue things. It is, rather, that the party has become hostile to the very idea that there’s an objective reality that might conflict with its political goals.

    Notice, by the way, that I’m not including qualifiers, like saying “some” Republicans. We’re talking about most of the party here. The Texas lawsuit calling on the Supreme Court to overturn the election was both absurd and deeply un-American, but more than 60 percent of Republicans in the House signed a brief supporting it, and only a handful of elected Republicans denounced the suit.

    At this point, you aren’t considered a proper Republican unless you hate facts.

    But when and how did the G.O.P. get that way? If you think it started with Donald Trump and will end when he leaves the scene (if he ever does), you’re naïve.

    Republicans have been heading in this direction for decades. I’m not sure whether we can pinpoint the moment when the party began its descent into malignant madness, but the trajectory that led to this moment probably became irreversible under Ronald Reagan.
    Editors’ Picks
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    Republicans have, of course, turned Reagan into an icon, portraying him as the savior of a desperate, declining nation. Mostly, however, this is just propaganda. You’d never know from the legend that economic growth under Reagan was only slightly faster than it had been under Jimmy Carter, and slower than it would be under Bill Clinton.

    And rapidly rising income inequality meant that a disproportionate share of the benefits from economic growth went to a small elite, with only a bit trickling down to most of the population. Poverty, measured properly, was higher in 1989 than it had been a decade earlier.

    Anyway, gross domestic product isn’t the same thing as well-being. Other measures suggest that we were already veering off course.

    For example, in 1980 life expectancy in America was similar to that in other wealthy nations; but the Reagan years mark the beginning of the great mortality divergence of the United States from the rest of the advanced world. Today, Americans can, on average, expect to live almost four fewer years than their counterparts in comparable countries.

    The main point, however, is that under Reagan, irrationality and hatred for facts began to take over the G.O.P."
    Last edited by guido; 12-14-2020 at 10:48 PM.
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  2. #1342
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    Default Re: 2020 Political Chatter

    Quote Originally Posted by BBB View Post
    I suppose I can only approach the issue logically and while I get what you are saying about Trump...what does that say about the 70m or so that voted for him?
    I think it says that a large percentage of the American voting public is unhappy with the two-party system and the candidates presented to them over the past ~30 years. Trump did something I didn't think possible. He created a confederacy of single-issue voters and convinced them that he was their savior. Second Amendment zealots? Check. Closet or overt racists? Check. Disaffected, blue collar white males (or those who align with blue collar white males)? Trump's your guy. Of course, Trump cared less for any of his constituency. He arguably has left the majority of them worse off. But they follow him like a messiah. Our country has become very tribal, and the Trump tribe is vocal and devoted.

    My $0.02: Trump's rise to presidential power coincided with a 50-60 year backlash to the rise of the middle class and the civil and women's rights movements. In the 15-20 years after WWII ended, the US drove the world's economic engine. Along with the rise of the American middle class came strong union workforces. During the period from approximately 1945-1965, US politics and economics were balanced by Government, labor, and capital (the owning and investing class). Around 1960, the pushback to labor and civil rights began in earnest. It was quietly bankrolled by the wealthy capitalists and investors who feared the continued growth of labor's power. Read Edmund Morris's biography of Ronald Reagan to learn how a Democrat union leader morphed into a Republican conservative politician. Hint: follow the money. Overt racism was driven underground at the same time, to be replaced by covert racism and evangelicalism. As capitalists began to move production overseas post-1965, blue collar laborers lost their jobs and their status. The three-legged stool of American politics and economics became unbalanced and tilted in favor of the capitalists. The wealthy also poured money into politics, installing elected officials who further favored them over the majority of American voters.

    Over time, the unhappy, underemployed blue collar workers, racists, evangelicals, and gun owners (among other Trump supporters...) became a voting block, ironically aligning with the very same people who were shipping their jobs overseas. These groups worked tirelessly to maintain the white male hegemony. Trump's political aspirations began to rise when Obama was elected in 2008. Trump then craftily co-opted the Republican party (who effectively had no platform other than to criticize the Democrats...) to make himself the messiah for the disaffected voters. His personality disorder meant that he had no inhibitions to say things that were once unspeakable. The perfect storm of a narcissistic sociopath and the people who love him.

    I'm sure my stream of consciousness has more than a few holes in it. I'd love to hear feedback from the forum participants. I have enjoyed the discussions here far more than most places during these crazy four years, and learned a lot from all of you - even those who I vehemently disagree with!

    Greg
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  3. #1343
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    Default Re: 2020 Political Chatter

    Quote Originally Posted by gregl View Post
    I think it says that a large percentage of the American voting public is unhappy with the two-party system and the candidates presented to them over the past ~30 years. Trump did something I didn't think possible. He created a confederacy of single-issue voters and convinced them that he was their savior. Second Amendment zealots? Check. Closet or overt racists? Check. Disaffected, blue collar white males (or those who align with blue collar white males)? Trump's your guy. Of course, Trump cared less for any of his constituency. He arguably has left the majority of them worse off. But they follow him like a messiah. Our country has become very tribal, and the Trump tribe is vocal and devoted.

    My $0.02: Trump's rise to presidential power coincided with a 50-60 year backlash to the rise of the middle class and the civil and women's rights movements. In the 15-20 years after WWII ended, the US drove the world's economic engine. Along with the rise of the American middle class came strong union workforces. During the period from approximately 1945-1965, US politics and economics were balanced by Government, labor, and capital (the owning and investing class). Around 1960, the pushback to labor and civil rights began in earnest. It was quietly bankrolled by the wealthy capitalists and investors who feared the continued growth of labor's power. Read Edmund Morris's biography of Ronald Reagan to learn how a Democrat union leader morphed into a Republican conservative politician. Hint: follow the money. Overt racism was driven underground at the same time, to be replaced by covert racism and evangelicalism. As capitalists began to move production overseas post-1965, blue collar laborers lost their jobs and their status. The three-legged stool of American politics and economics became unbalanced and tilted in favor of the capitalists. The wealthy also poured money into politics, installing elected officials who further favored them over the majority of American voters.

    Over time, the unhappy, underemployed blue collar workers, racists, evangelicals, and gun owners (among other Trump supporters...) became a voting block, ironically aligning with the very same people who were shipping their jobs overseas. These groups worked tirelessly to maintain the white male hegemony. Trump's political aspirations began to rise when Obama was elected in 2008. Trump then craftily co-opted the Republican party (who effectively had no platform other than to criticize the Democrats...) to make himself the messiah for the disaffected voters. His personality disorder meant that he had no inhibitions to say things that were once unspeakable. The perfect storm of a narcissistic sociopath and the people who love him.

    I'm sure my stream of consciousness has more than a few holes in it. I'd love to hear feedback from the forum participants. I have enjoyed the discussions here far more than most places during these crazy four years, and learned a lot from all of you - even those who I vehemently disagree with!

    Greg
    I vehemently agree with your synopsis; and you saved me the trouble of writing much the same thing, though without as much detail or knowledge. It's long been clear to me that WWII made the USA, industrially and economically; everybody else was in ashes. We had a nice run as the world's undisputed industrial supermarket for 20 or 30 years and got used to the broad distribution of wealth it brought, particularly to relatively uneducated peeps. We seem to think that that was the norm when it was, in actuality, an unlikely flash in the pan. Those days are gone, never to return, and we have a rough road ahead, full of difficult choices and requiring some soul searching concerning how we will, or won't, configure our economy in pursuit of a reasonably wide wealth distribution going forward. How will we generate enough jobs for our peeps in a world full of lower opportunity cost producers? How will we structure our society if we don't? How will we react to living with an infrastructure dependent on vast quantities of dirt cheap oil when it is neither vast nor dirt cheap? Mayberry doesn't exist anymore, Ward and June Cleaver are dead and progressive, forward thinking politics is vilified by about half of our population. I am not optimistic for our future; but hell, I'm not optimistic for the future of the planet either. I think we will see a slow decline in the fortunes of most, an acceleration of already obscene wealth concentration and the political and social instability that accompanies such trajectories. And of course that ignores global climate change, loss of species, increased competition for limited resources and such as that.
    John Clay
    Tallahassee, FL
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  4. #1344
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    Default Re: 2020 Political Chatter

    Quote Originally Posted by jclay View Post
    It's long been clear to me that WWII made the USA, industrially and economically; everybody else was in ashes. We had a nice run as the world's undisputed industrial supermarket for 20 or 30 years
    I have a minor quibble with that analysis: I think the post WW2 period cemented US dominance but didn't create it. The US became a dominant player in industries that really bloomed in the 20th century: electronics, the media associated with mass electronics, cars and the fuels associated with cars,

    In both electronics and motor vehicles the early running was done in Europe but the US bought, licensed or evaded the IP rights then built massive industries based on these.

    Read the history of RCA and be amazed.

    A side note: one thing that was invented in the US and really helped with this is telephony. The Bell system's research division and the associated manufacturing arm (Western Electric) gave the rest of the US electronics industry a massive boost. An example: the dean of Stanford's EE department, Fred Terman, decided that having an industrial park where his graduates could start buinesses was a good idea so he established one in Palo Alto. Many of its most successful businesses were started by ex Bell Labs people (or people who finally decided they couldn't stand working with the ex Bell Labs people).

    Alongside this, much of the running in statistical quality control was done by the electronics manufacturers. The Hawthorne plant, famous for the experiment, was a WE valve* manufacturing plant.


    * "tube" for Septics.
    Mark Kelly
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  5. #1345
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    Default Re: 2020 Political Chatter

    Interesting stuff.

    I'd add into the mix:

    The impact of WW1 that allowed the US to go from a debtor to a creditor nation. Where the US found itself at the end of WW2 was a process that was started much earlier. Likewise, the two part act of WW1 and WW2 finally sunk the British Empire.

    The fact that the world was in two armed camps. The US did various things such as help re-build Japan to be a bulwark against communism and in doing so laid much of the ground work that enabled Japan to be a world leader in electronics and cars and an eventual competitor to the US. It also pumped money into Western Europe, including Germany (or Western Germany) and allowed those countries to recover and grow. Somewhat ironically Germany ended up the dominant player in Europe, which of course was one of the many reasons the two wars were fought in the first instances.

    The reliance on raw materials. It was great when it was going well, but when the Middle East decided to flex its muscles, oil became a big issue and helped cause recessionary conditions in the 1970s.

    The end of the cold war allowed the market to dominate. While it was going that way in any event, money took over as the dominant force.

    Changing social conditions and immigration.

    And here we are today.
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  6. #1346
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    Default Re: 2020 Political Chatter

    Huh, convenient tie in. Two of the experts sent to Japan in the Marshal Plan were the gurus of quality management, JM Juran and W Edwards Deming, both ex Western Electric. They found the Japanese management much more receptive to their ideas than Americans had been and quality management became part of the way Japanese industry did things. The rest, as they say, is history.

    Tie in to bike forum: part of the reason Shimano dominates the component market is they brought these principles to the bike component market early.
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  7. #1347
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    Default Re: 2020 Political Chatter

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Kelly View Post
    I have a minor quibble with that analysis: I think the post WW2 period cemented US dominance but didn't create it. The US became a dominant player in industries that really bloomed in the 20th century: electronics, the media associated with mass electronics, cars and the fuels associated with cars.
    It makes the point, though.

    Of course the US didn't start from nothing, had a formidable industrial capacity and possessed an enormous productive potential but WWII put everything on steroids; it caused phenomenal, nearly unimaginable growth in the US while ultimately heavily damaging or demolishing our industrial competitors. When the ash settled, the resulting differential made the USA of the two or three golden decades of the post WWII era and forever changed and cemented our built environment morphology and our expectations as to pretty much everything; rescaling the latter in service of morphing the former towards a potentially long term sustainable model will be an extremely difficult....no....damn near impossible needle to thread peacefully. While I am enormously glad that Biden won, even if not by nearly enough, I am also cognizant that he's not really what we need. We need progressives who recognize the spectrum of the historical and contemporary problems we face, and who can both sell the public on that reality and craft ways to address it. And that will be an unfathomably difficult row to hoe.
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  8. #1348
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    Default Re: 2020 Political Chatter

    Quote Originally Posted by guido View Post
    When Did Republicans Start Hating Facts? | New York Times

    "Republicans spent most of 2020 rejecting science in the face of a runaway pandemic; now they’re rejecting democracy in the face of a clear election loss.

    What do these rejections have in common? In each case, one of America’s two major parties simply refused to accept facts it didn’t like.
    https://eand.co/how-freedom-became-f...a-baee33dc6476

    A country where some people continue to deny a disease they are dying of.
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    T h o m a s
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  9. #1349
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    Default Re: 2020 Political Chatter

    I could post this is the healthcare section, but in the world's wealthiest country, an employee at the white house has a goFundMe page to help pay for medical expenses from a severe complications from COVID.

    https://thehill.com/homenews/adminis...f-leg-battling
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  10. #1350
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    Default Re: 2020 Political Chatter

    Thank you for this information. I was tempted to "like" your post but there is nothing in there to be very happy about but thank you for keeping us aware.
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    Default Re: 2020 Political Chatter

    Quote Originally Posted by vertical_doug View Post
    I could post this is the healthcare section, but in the world's wealthiest country, an employee at the white house has a goFundMe page to help pay for medical expenses from a severe complications from COVID.

    https://thehill.com/homenews/adminis...f-leg-battling
    Would need details. Feds have very good to great heathcare plans.
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  12. #1352
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    Default Re: 2020 Political Chatter

    Quote Originally Posted by vertical_doug View Post
    I could post this is the healthcare section, but in the world's wealthiest country, an employee at the white house has a goFundMe page to help pay for medical expenses from a severe complications from COVID.

    https://thehill.com/homenews/adminis...f-leg-battling
    okay that sucks, a high-profile example of the unnecessary results of a lackadaisical approach, not to mention a somewhat ridiculous irony that the "Head of Security" was a victim of DNBI, which any person who has ever served or worked in almost every level (but certainly ANY management role) in the arena of Defense knows that DNBI is the greatest source of morbidity. Once again the actual "wartime" footing of this administration is highlighted
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  13. #1353
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    Default Re: 2020 Political Chatter

    Quote Originally Posted by sk_tle View Post
    https://eand.co/how-freedom-became-f...a-baee33dc6476

    A country where some people continue to deny a disease they are dying of.
    A fair number of us are quite horrified about what our neighbors have become.
    Guy Washburn

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  14. #1354
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    Default Re: 2020 Political Chatter

    Quote Originally Posted by jclay View Post
    It makes the point, though.

    Of course the US didn't start from nothing, had a formidable industrial capacity and possessed an enormous productive potential but WWII put everything on steroids; it caused phenomenal, nearly unimaginable growth in the US while ultimately heavily damaging or demolishing our industrial competitors.
    I found this really interesting so I had a look at the figures. The best data I can find are from "Contours of the World Economy 1 - 2030 AD" by Angus Maddison, though I must admit I used the precis of this data in wiki.

    Using his data for twelve european countries amalgamated and the USA and doing a bit of crunching in a spreadsheet, the average annual percentage increase in GDP for each of these entities vs time looks like this:

    Period . . . . . . . . USA . . . Europe

    1870 - 1913 . . . 3.94% . . 2.13%
    1913 - 1950 . . . 2.84% . . 1.16%
    1950 - 1973 . . . 3.93% . . 4.65%
    1973 - 1989 . . . 3.03% . . 2.26%
    1989 - 2008 . . . 2.71% . . 1.84%

    So basically apart from "les trente glorieuses", when compared with Europe the US has been on a roll for 150 years, which means my thesis that it was the 20th century industries the US came to dominate that lead to the US hegemony is bunk.
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  15. #1355
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    Default Re: 2020 Political Chatter

    ^^^

    The US had untrammeled wilderness to begin with, scarcely populated, abundant with raw materials and resources= a huge structural advantage. So did Russia.
    Jay Dwight
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  16. #1356
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    Default Re: 2020 Political Chatter

    Found the Dominion hearings quite interesting. A lot of smart people have clearly thought this out. Frankly the claims coming out of the Trump camp are not only ludicrous but embarassing. I expect lawsuits if these unsupported claims don't cease. This is all knowable



    -Mike G
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  17. #1357
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    Default Re: 2020 Political Chatter

    to follow up on my previous post about structural advantage:

    How Russian agriculture may benefit from climate change

    https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/...gtype=Homepage
    Jay Dwight
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  18. #1358
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    Default Re: 2020 Political Chatter

    if nothing else, this election season has been eye opening to how convoluted our presidential election process is. this stuff has been going on as a matter of course since the beginning, but it seems with captain sore loser, every major milestone that should put a decisive end to the backlash is only met by the next major hill to cling to.

    i was very surprised to learn that there is still a meeting of congress to formal count the EC votes and declare a winner. what type of stupid fuckery is this? we all know who the EC voted for. after that will be the potential of some other nonsense on inauguration day.

    i guess i should have paid more attention in high school, but it does come as a surprise to all the goings on that happens for a seemingly simple democratic process.

    mini-rant over.
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    Default Re: 2020 Political Chatter

    I'm looking forward to the alternate universe inauguration superspreader event a Mar-a-lago in January.

    I haven't seen Ted Nugent in concert since '77 when I was on the floor of the Springfield Civic Center when he recorded Double Live Gonzo. I bet he'll open with "Stranglehold", best-ever anthem to domestic violence. And Kid Rock always puts on an amazing show.

    Best part is that neither those stupid cat turds that the dog just threw up will ever get paid.

    Scott Baio will come for the "free" appetizers but they'll empty his pockets for the cover charge and he won't be able to eat that many Trader Joe's Crab Rangoons to make it back.
    Walter

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    Default Re: 2020 Political Chatter

    Quote Originally Posted by Walter Sobchak View Post
    I'm looking forward to the alternate universe inauguration superspreader event at Mar-a-lago in January.
    I'm looking forward to Mr. Poopy-Pantz getting evicted from Mar-a-lago shortly thereafter: https://slate.com/news-and-politics/...residence.html

    (original story with less-engaging headline here: https://www.washingtonpost.com/lifes...781_story.html )
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