WTF? Terrorist killing in Woolwich, London.

[Mike Mcdermid]

Protecting yourself from forces which would have you wiped off the earth with ruthless, pre-emptive violence.

Is that a whole lot different to the justifications and modus operandi of the terrorist organisations?

I mean, "pre-emptive" means targeting people who have yet to do anything wrong. Is launching a drone missile strike against the potential terrorist's village really any different to a terrorist blowing up a bus in peak hour?

In many case, though, the terrorist organisations would claim that they aren't being pre-emptive, that they are in fact responding to military incursions by superior powers, the occupation of their land, the colonial-style theft of natural resources, imposition of foreign government on their daily lives etc.

In military actions civilians are generally not the primary target that it can be in terrorist acts, but the potential for their death is a known, understood and accepted consequence. Is it much better to kill civilians when they are classified as "acceptable collateral damage" as opposed to "primary target"? One major difference, though, is the scale of capabilities. 3000 died on September 11. There were over half a million civilian deaths in Iraq up to 2006 as a result of the war and occuption according to the Lancet study.

Even if you do think that there are meaningful differences which would allow you to suppot pre-emptive military actions while condemning terrorist actions, the question still remains as to whether military force is a particularly effective means of combatting terrorism at all (and I'd suggest it is not).

Is there much difference between the US War of Independence and the current Palestinian Intifada, or the struggles of the IRA or the Basque separatist movement, or Al Qaeda's 20 years of violence against foreign occupiers in Afghanistan and the Middle East? Does it make any sense to protect your way of life by undermining its most fundamental principles?

Again, none of this is a justification for terrorist acts. It just alarms me when people are so quickly prepared to denounce the violence of others but are all to ready to approve it as a legitimate means of action for themselves. That one side wears a uniform and the other does not, in my opinion, cast their violence in a different light.

interesting read

A German's View on Islam - worth reading.

This is by far the best explanation of the Muslim terrorist situation I have ever read.
His references to past history are accurate and clear.
Not long, easy to understand, and well worth the read.
The author of this email is Dr. Emanuel Tanya, a well-known and well-respected psychiatrist.


A man, whose family was German aristocracy prior to World War II, owned a number of large industries and estates. When asked how many German people were true Nazis, the answer he gave can guide our attitude toward fanaticism.

'Very few people were true Nazis,' he said, 'but many enjoyed the return of German pride, and many more were too busy to care. I was one of those who just thought the Nazis were a bunch of fools. So, the majority just sat back and let it all happen. Then, before we knew it, they owned us, and we had lost control, and the end of the world had come. My family lost everything. I ended up in a concentration camp and the Allies destroyed my factories.'

We are told again and again by 'experts' and 'talking heads' that Islam is the religion of peace and that the vast majority of Muslims just want to live in peace. Although this unqualified assertion may be true, it is entirely irrelevant. It is meaningless fluff, meant to make us feel better, and meant to somehow diminish the spectre of fanatics rampaging across the globe in the name of Islam.

The fact is that the fanatics rule Islam at this moment in history. It is the fanatics who march. It is the fanatics who wage any one of 50 shooting wars worldwide. It is the fanatics who systematically slaughter Christian or tribal groups throughout Africa and are gradually taking over the entire continent in an Islamic wave. It is the fanatics who bomb, behead, murder, or honour-kill. It is the fanatics who take over mosque after mosque. It is the fanatics who zealously spread the stoning and hanging of rape victims and homosexuals. It is the fanatics who teach their young to kill and to become suicide bombers.

The hard, quantifiable fact is that the peaceful majority, the 'silent majority,' is cowed and extraneous. Communist Russia was comprised of Russians who just wanted to live in peace, yet the Russian Communists were responsible for the murder of about 20 million people. The peaceful majority were irrelevant. China's huge population was peaceful as well, but Chinese Communists managed to kill a staggering 70 million people..

The average Japanese individual prior to World War II was not a warmongering sadist. Yet, Japan murdered and slaughtered its way across South East Asia in an orgy of killing that included the systematic murder of 12 million Chinese civilians; most killed by sword, shovel, and bayonet. And who can forget Rwanda , which collapsed into butchery. Could it not be said that the majority of Rwandans were 'peace loving'?

History lessons are often incredibly simple and blunt, yet for all our powers of reason, we often miss the most basic and uncomplicated of points: peace-loving Muslims have been made irrelevant by their silence. Peace-loving Muslims will become our enemy if they don't speak up, because like my friend from Germany , they will awaken one day and find that the fanatics own them, and the end of their world will have begun.

Peace-loving Germans, Japanese, Chinese, Russians, Rwandans, Serbs, Afghans, Iraqis, Palestinians, Somalis, Nigerians, Algerians, and many others have died because the peaceful majority did not speak up until it was too late.

Now Islamic prayers have been introduced into Toronto and other public schools in Ontario , and, yes, in Ottawa too while the Lord's Prayer was removed (due to being so offensive?) The Islamic way may be peaceful for the time being in our country until the fanatics move in.

In Australia , and indeed in many countries around the world, many of the most commonly consumed food items have the halal emblem on them. Just look at the back of some of the most popular chocolate bars, and at other food items in your local supermarket. Food on aircraft have the halal emblem (see the attachment), just to appease the privileged minority who are now rapidly expanding within the nation’s shores.

In the U.K, the Muslim communities refuse to integrate and there are now dozens of “no-go” zones within major cities across the country that the police force dare not intrude upon. Sharia law prevails there, because the Muslim community in those areas refuse to acknowledge British law.

As for us who watch it all unfold, we must pay attention to the only group that counts -- the fanatics who threaten our way of life.

Lastly, anyone who doubts that the issue is serious and just deletes this email without sending it on, is contributing to the passiveness that allows the problems to expand.

[Jonathan]

Come on, this wasnt even written by the person quoted. How can this be taken seriously?

interesting read

A German's View on Islam - worth reading.

This is by far the best explanation of the Muslim terrorist situation I have ever read.
His references to past history are accurate and clear.
Not long, easy to understand, and well worth the read.
The author of this email is Dr. Emanuel Tanya, a well-known and well-respected psychiatrist.


A man, whose family was German aristocracy prior to World War II, owned a number of large industries and estates. When asked how many German people were true Nazis, the answer he gave can guide our attitude toward fanaticism.

'Very few people were true Nazis,' he said, 'but many enjoyed the return of German pride, and many more were too busy to care. I was one of those who just thought the Nazis were a bunch of fools. So, the majority just sat back and let it all happen. Then, before we knew it, they owned us, and we had lost control, and the end of the world had come. My family lost everything. I ended up in a concentration camp and the Allies destroyed my factories.'

We are told again and again by 'experts' and 'talking heads' that Islam is the religion of peace and that the vast majority of Muslims just want to live in peace. Although this unqualified assertion may be true, it is entirely irrelevant. It is meaningless fluff, meant to make us feel better, and meant to somehow diminish the spectre of fanatics rampaging across the globe in the name of Islam.

The fact is that the fanatics rule Islam at this moment in history. It is the fanatics who march. It is the fanatics who wage any one of 50 shooting wars worldwide. It is the fanatics who systematically slaughter Christian or tribal groups throughout Africa and are gradually taking over the entire continent in an Islamic wave. It is the fanatics who bomb, behead, murder, or honour-kill. It is the fanatics who take over mosque after mosque. It is the fanatics who zealously spread the stoning and hanging of rape victims and homosexuals. It is the fanatics who teach their young to kill and to become suicide bombers.

The hard, quantifiable fact is that the peaceful majority, the 'silent majority,' is cowed and extraneous. Communist Russia was comprised of Russians who just wanted to live in peace, yet the Russian Communists were responsible for the murder of about 20 million people. The peaceful majority were irrelevant. China's huge population was peaceful as well, but Chinese Communists managed to kill a staggering 70 million people..

The average Japanese individual prior to World War II was not a warmongering sadist. Yet, Japan murdered and slaughtered its way across South East Asia in an orgy of killing that included the systematic murder of 12 million Chinese civilians; most killed by sword, shovel, and bayonet. And who can forget Rwanda , which collapsed into butchery. Could it not be said that the majority of Rwandans were 'peace loving'?

History lessons are often incredibly simple and blunt, yet for all our powers of reason, we often miss the most basic and uncomplicated of points: peace-loving Muslims have been made irrelevant by their silence. Peace-loving Muslims will become our enemy if they don't speak up, because like my friend from Germany , they will awaken one day and find that the fanatics own them, and the end of their world will have begun.

Peace-loving Germans, Japanese, Chinese, Russians, Rwandans, Serbs, Afghans, Iraqis, Palestinians, Somalis, Nigerians, Algerians, and many others have died because the peaceful majority did not speak up until it was too late.

Now Islamic prayers have been introduced into Toronto and other public schools in Ontario , and, yes, in Ottawa too while the Lord's Prayer was removed (due to being so offensive?) The Islamic way may be peaceful for the time being in our country until the fanatics move in.

In Australia , and indeed in many countries around the world, many of the most commonly consumed food items have the halal emblem on them. Just look at the back of some of the most popular chocolate bars, and at other food items in your local supermarket. Food on aircraft have the halal emblem (see the attachment), just to appease the privileged minority who are now rapidly expanding within the nation’s shores.

In the U.K, the Muslim communities refuse to integrate and there are now dozens of “no-go” zones within major cities across the country that the police force dare not intrude upon. Sharia law prevails there, because the Muslim community in those areas refuse to acknowledge British law.

As for us who watch it all unfold, we must pay attention to the only group that counts -- the fanatics who threaten our way of life.

Lastly, anyone who doubts that the issue is serious and just deletes this email without sending it on, is contributing to the passiveness that allows the problems to expand.

[Mike Mcdermid]

just another take from a different side of the fanatic fence i suppose perhaps it was written with the intent of incitement

I have no idea who wrote it

But indeed as in any country there are no go zones ,this is true in the UK and increasingly so, and it is to some degree based on which culture, ethnicity lives in that area, when i lived in the USA there were areas like this too, in spain also, but i never felt as unsafe there as i did "in my own back yard"

[RickM]

ABiCi wrote; "Want to elaborate? It's not particularly convincing if you don't. " to GAAP.



False. It's convincing. Your previous post has some inconsistencies that raised my hackles, too...but really....pingponging this stuff isn't going to change anyone's mind and it all gets tiresome quickly. You have your opinions...others here, myself included, find them to be flawed..as you find ours. This thread needs a lock, and fast.

[ABiCi]

ABiCi wrote; "Want to elaborate? It's not particularly convincing if you don't. " to GAAP.

False. It's convincing. Your previous post has some inconsistencies that raised my hackles, too...but really....pingponging this stuff isn't going to change anyone's mind and it all gets tiresome quickly. You have your opinions...others here, myself included, find them to be flawed..as you find ours. This thread needs a lock, and fast.

It needs a lock because we don't all agree? So far the discussion has been entirely civil and I'd rather hear what you thought was inconsistent in what I said than "You are wrong, but I'm not going to say why, now let's all stop talking about this."

[Mike Mcdermid]

we seem to all have opinions which cross each others boundaries ....its a pretty charged subject

btw we will all be on the fbi cia mi5 watch list now so its not going to matter

[Ride-Fly]

Come on, this wasnt even written by the person quoted. How can this be taken seriously?

Why would that not make it relevant, serious, or true? Makes absolute sense to me. Just MHO but the biggest threat to western civilization is the encroachment of Islam and its desires to convert everyone over. I say that because this is so insidious and apathy will let it happen before its too late. Yes, it's no different than Genghis Khan and Hitler and Napolean etc trying to take over the world. Except that this has the face of religion to hide under before everyone realizes what we are up against. The Crusades were in the name of God, but wasn't the Christians' finest moments. One day, maybe not in our lifetime, or in your son/daughters lifetime, but maybe in your great great grandsons time, history might repeat itself. Only this time, it might be a Jihadist crusade. I sincerely hope I'm wrong.

BTW, Muslim birth rates are slowing but it is still projected to be double the non-Muslim birth rates for the next 20 yrs. Not to mention the conversion efforts.

I know this will make most of you think I'm a right-wing ultra conservative. But that is the furthest thing from reality. I am a staunch middle-of-the-roadie.

[Jonathan]

Why would that not make it relevant, serious, or true?

If you don't know or don't care that the piece comes up on every urban legend website as not being written by the person credited then I assume you don't care if the other so called "facts" are wrong too. I don't care if others have opinions, it bothers me when others are intellectually lazy with them.