bike shit fit

[Loknor]

There is a difference between a fast technical descent and a tricky, slow offroad descent. Both clearly have different dynamics. In a fast descent getting lower is a good idea. In a really slow technical inch by inch scalpel manouvering you tend to straighten up a bit.

[bcm119]

As for "shit fit", I think bike fit has evolved recently because of the influx of the "golf crowd" if you will. Average Americans expect immediate comfort in their weekend leisure activity, and LBS fitters are succumbing to that expectation. The idea that a road bike is not comfortable until one has adapted to the sport is often dismissed. How are you going to sell a new bike if the customer doesn't feel completely comfortable circling in the parking lot? As a result we're seeing more road bikes set up for the style of riding we used to call hybrid/recreational. I have tight hamstrings and a severely messed up lumbar spine, and although I don't look like LeMond, I have a healthy reach and some bar drop. I really think comfort is a complicated term when it comes to riding a bike, it has many interpretations.

My own fit has always been a little funky. I am tall and lanky but with short femurs, long back, wide shoulders and narrow hips. A decade of competitive swimming probably shaped my upper body and I can't lose all of that mass. I'm top heavy; I always have more weight on my hands than guys with long legs and narrow shoulders. I can only minimize that by scooting the saddle back so far-- I'm limited by my short femurs. Contrary to a lot of advice about riding with a bad lumbar disc, I find that riding in the drops takes some weight off the spine and feels good. But I will never be very comfortable on the bike for 5+ hour rides. I'm not particularly comfortable at slow speeds for any length of time either-- soft pedaling for hours at a time kills my back, because my weight is on my spine and hands instead of pushing into the pedals. That's not to say I won't ride long rides, but it isn't my focus. Most of my riding is fast 2-4 hour rides, that's just the way I enjoy cycling, and I'm okay with it.

Some things that haven't been mentioned much:

saddles and saddle tilt. It can make a big difference for some people. As you increase your drop/reach, your weight shifts from sit-bones to 'taint'. That can be uncomfortable, esp. in the drops. Play with saddle tilt until you reach a good compromise between that "falling forward" feeling and sitting on your urethra. Also, find a saddle that lets you roll your pelvis forward a bit when the saddle is flat; if you are always rotating it back to lift weight off your taint, find a new saddle. This dynamic can affect reach too.

Dialing in a fit on a trainer/stationary bike is useless. It *always* puts you on a bike with too little drop and short reach. I can't explain the physics of it, but it is a fact.

[bcm119]

Cars and bicycles corner completely differently- a low CG is desirable in a car, it is not in a bike. Check out the wikipedia entry Bicycle and motorcycle dynamics - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The higher the center of gravity, the easier to balance and the more stable it is.

a high center of gravity makes a bike more stable, where "stable" in this case means it will be easier to balance on. A 10 ft high circus bike is very easy to balance on, its like stilts. But it is not easy to corner on, because you can't adjust the path that you are following very quickly. Cornering safely at speed requires constant micro adjustments to your line. Same reason a lower BB feels easier to take high speed corners on.

[sonny]

what the fuck are you all talking about?

go look here: VSalon Cycling Gallery

you'll see that bikes that are made to be ridden more than a couple hours a month are all the same despite large differences in rider physicality.
only a couple ways to distribute weight and put the wheels in the proper place so bike+rider can go where they want without having to think too hard. this is the magic of a good bike--it's nothing new

and no, bicycles are not supposed to be comfortable. i ride a rusted-out beach cruiser from time to time; very upright you'd say. it's pleasant to sit on but not to pedal anywhere
there's a difference

[Z3c]

what the fuck are you all talking about?

go look here: VSalon Cycling Gallery

you'll see that bikes that are made to be ridden more than a couple hours a month are all the same despite large differences in rider physicality.
only a couple ways to distribute weight and put the wheels in the proper place so bike+rider can go where they want without having to think too hard. this is the magic of a good bike--it's nothing new

and no, bicycles are not supposed to be comfortable. i ride a rusted-out beach cruiser from time to time; very upright you'd say. it's pleasant to sit on but not to pedal anywhere
there's a difference

When did IBC open in Portland?

[sonny]

When did IBC open in Portland?

jerk would be appalled

[Loknor]

what the fuck are you all talking about?

go look here: VSalon Cycling Gallery

Nice and witty, but ultimately a bogus argument.

There are plenty of little drop bikes in there. And also you are going to refute that both Musseeuw and Hinault went fast yet have a different fit philosophy?

It's quite simple. The first poster is a proponent of Genzling (which actually is how I fit my bike), the contention is that current pro's have largely abandonded that. And the evidence of material of Merckx, Hinault, Fignon, Lemond, Bartoli, Musseeuw and Tchmil indicates that indeed there is more than one way to have a good fit. Denial is flying straight into the face of the cold hard evidence.

And a racebike can be perfectly comfortable, even for a newbie. The idea that you have to suffer is baffling me.

[Too Tall]

Holy Hanna y'all can go on and on. Great thread, strong opinions are a good thing.

This thread is destined for VSalon Wiki. All hope is lost.

[davids]

When did IBC open in Portland?

IBC may open a branch in Bangkok or Beirut. Never in Portland.

[Too Tall]

Dredging this thread up to keep the subject fresh wrt what "systems" and schools / methods are failing bicyclists. We talk about this alot, riding bikes and fit are a process that ever evolves. In the right hands we are well served and in the wrong hands nothing good...

Retul is highly suspect in the wrong hands. It is a tool and in my opinion enhances the abilities of someone who without Retul could do a real fine job fitting cyclists to bikes. The "tool" merely allows them to confirm what they know, play "what if" games and last it does help sell the process to customers.

When I see pictures like this it makes me cringe:

[Loknor]

Retul is highly suspect

Fixed it for ya.

If a fitting method with zero base in science is using the term "University" to peddle it's system to the masses you know it's a scam.

And that's without going into the hysterical claim of being accurate under a millimeter. I assume Retul university members use a fresh chamois every ride considering that will affect their output? I image the stress when a manufacturer changes Bib types... back to the cycling specific 3d motion biomechanic dynamic ergotraining power assesment.

That will be 299$ please.

And no I kid you not. 299$....

[DOOFUS]

this whole fignon thing is silly

different morphology than bartoli or lemond

position by guimard (same as lemond and hinaut): he was set up to get as aero as he could given his build and flexibility

he was plenty long and low -- he wasn't set up like a fucking tourist

http://inspire-ipcmedia-com.s3-eu-we...8_Fignon_2.jpg

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_I4Snyzw2IM..._systeme_U.jpg

http://legenducyclisme.files.wordpre...0/08/20481.jpg

[DOOFUS]

paul knows what he's talking about. all of guimard's riders were positioned the same, insofar as their positions reflected guimard's philosophy: hinault, fignon, lemond, mottet, the madiots, gayant, rue were all set up along genzling's lines, their positions set so they got maximum power and maximum aerodynamics for their builds and flexibility. their differences in setup were due to differences of morphology, not philosophy.

their drops and hoods were in the same position as current riders -- the tops were 1cm or more higher because modern riders are using ~135mm drop bars with the hoods rotated up, instead of 150mm drop bars with the hoods set in the middle of the bends.

[bigbill]

I got fit by a "pro" back in the early 90's. He was a Chiropractor in Greeneville, SC who had an early version of a computrainer. Fit was based on the position that I could produce the greatest wattage for a few minutes. 99% of the time I wasn't riding on the nose of the saddle so it was pretty much useless. The only thing I rely on these days is nose of saddle position in relation to the bb and a saddle height of 84cm. The reach on all of my bikes are close but not exactly the same. They all have the same saddle and pedals.

[deepsix]

Toots,

I'm coming from the same place: caring for cyclists. Also, I have to agree-- the position on the bike, or the "fit", as we call it is an adaptive, fluid, individual process.

HOWEVER LOKNOR:

I need to stick up for Retul (their product and company). It is wrong to say that Retul is a fitting method with zero base in science. I don't believe that it is correct to even describe Retul as a fitting method. The term, Retul, simply describes the imaging tool used to collect data from a cyclist in motion. They cite the accuracy of their imaging tool to emphasize something every cyclist learns: that small changes make a difference. Accurate measurements are the mark of a professional in most fields.

Infrared cameras don't fit bikes, a person fits bikes.

I agree with Toots- that Retul enhances the ability of someone who could otherwise do a fine job setting up a bike. However, I'm not so dismissive of the tool itself. Of course a deep knowledge of bikes and cycling is necessary before advising riders. To an experienced eye of course something that looks right has a MUCH higher probability of being successful than something that looks wrong. But Retul (and similar technologies that allow accurate, dynamic measurements) opens up another dimension in fitting: quantified measurement of the changes to a position with subtle of changes to a bike.

I don't think it is shameful to a fitter, or a discredit to the human eye that we can't accurately perceive the knee extension angle of a rider pedaling at speed without good measuring tools.

Retul is not an ideology. Going and getting "Retul'd" somewhere could have as many different results as there are fitters who utilize the Retul imaging system. As for Retul University-- its a good resource. I've taken part more than once. It is not some sort of a bike-fitting space camp. It is instruction on integrating data gathered from 3D motion analysis into the fit process. There are numbers. Those numbers represent normative ranges that describe healthy operating limits of joints and motion paths of limbs. Those ranges come from data-sets developed by the Boulder Center for Sports Medicine. Retul has very direct lineage to the bike fitting process developed there. The bio-mechanists who instruct there don't describe anything that isn't validated by peer-edited research.

There is no one right way to ride a bike. Retul would agree. However if you want to measure the exact differences in a body across that infinite array of positions... Retul is a valuable tool.

[Loknor]

Sorry Deepsix. I'm stating facts. And in this case as you are one of those who are protective of something which has all aspects of snake oil and con job this needs to be adressed.

1. Retul is very clear they are just a marketing tool.

- Drives sales of new bikes and extra parts
- Increases return visits from customers seeking advice from a trusted fitter (Indeed, who doesn't trust someone who has a university degree? ^^)
- Is a key sales tool during the local cycling season as well as the slower off season

Just go to their seminars, get a degree from a university that is not a university, buy their tools and rake in the dough.

2. There is no science pointing to one or the other fitting method being superior. Indeed, it's all a huge mess with conflicting reports. If anything everytime it seems a human is pretty good at adjusting and handling a new fit. Contrary to what you believe, small changes do not yield perceptible differences in the longer run at least according to tests.

3. The notion they call it a "university" is flat-out missleading.

4. Their accuracy down to a MM is hysterical. "The Retül system is accurate to within less than a millimeter, creating true objective data which can be utilized by the fitter for the perfect biomechanical fit."

-> Accurate within less to a MM is worthless. Unless you replace your chamois every day and you cycle glued into place. Also, I wager your body's elasticity is the same every day you mount your bike? ;)
-> Perfect biomechanical fit? What is a perfect biomechanical fit?
-> those adjustments will improve a rider's performance. => A claim which is not supported by tests.

Sorry, these things are clear red signs about Retul. If there's real research and science I will consider it, but if a company cloaks it's own theories in the guise of science you just know it's a conjob.

And sure, you can call it marketing. I stay very clear from companies who only have marketing and little substance.

I'm sure Retul fitters try to do their best. But the whole concept is litle more than a marketing scam. The whole wording is just marketing and false claims. If they didn't do that I would be more lenient, but if a company is so into missleading on every page of their site we all should know better.

[Too Tall]

Deep and Lok thanks for your comments this helps to frame what customers can expect and betters their chances of understanding what they are paying for.

OK that said you'll enjoy this. I'm coaching a new guy. He is a seasoned athlete in other sports, less so with cycling and in need of a good fit so I sent him to Scott Paisley at Blue Wheel Bikes . Scott and his business partner are old school, practical and accomplished racers. Here is the note I got back from my client:

Had a 2 hour fit with Scott Paisley yesterday. Best experience ever. Went longer and lower up front which increased comfort dramatically. Also raised seat height a tad and a minor cleat adjustment. Bike definitely feels more balanced.

The best part is that he had me ride for 20 minutes after every change outside. Only $50 too.



TT is out.

[Paul]

Ah, the common sense approach, I'm glad that still exists!
#simplebutnotdumb

[bontie]

Some guys just know, they don’t need sensors and computers and shit. They ride with you/watch you ride and then advise. I got “fit” over a few weeks of club rides with my local ex pro a few years back.
I heart stories like TT’s one above.

Kinda like Pegoretti riding on a moped/scooter behind you, does he still do that?

[Too Tall]

I have not yet begun....

I'm going to throw gas on the fire.

Before I say what I've got on my chest let me be clear. There are some amazing cats doing bike fits who are professionals and earn every cent they charge and I consider them rare very rare.

By and large I won't give the time of day to anyone who charges *large (*I think $250 is way too much) for this service and have never raced a bike or spent 10,000 hrs. in the saddle. Perhaps I exaggerate a little for emphasis?

#RANT-O-MATIC

Most of the people I'm aware of who charge large money for bike fitting should be laughed off the stage.

Fitting cyclists to bicycles should be free. "Should" is a naughty word because professionals who run bicycle shops or who otherwise must take time away from their chosen profession to perform this service should be reasonably compensated. I've got serious concern with people who call it their business eg. the fittings are not associated with a bicycle sale or a custom bicycle and in rare(er) cases associated with a Sports Clinic.

In the name of a BS free zone I challenge all of the old guys/gals/gal-guys/ to step up and perform free or nearly free fittings for riders in need. Take my challenge if you DO NOT have the words "Bicycle Fitting" as part of your business plan. Include me in this, I am willing to schedule any and all comers for bicycle fittings. Be reasonable and bring beer.

#RANTOFF#'