The Vaccine Thread

[beeatnik]

My wife is the example of a vaccinated person who had a breakthrough case of Covid. She was ill starting Tuesday night, tested positive on Wednesday morning, spent a few days sick in bed with what felt like a really bad cold with extra fatigue, and today is up and about feeling great although with some fatigue. She'll test again on Monday although it may be too soon to get a negative. She never had any symptoms severe enough to warrant a trip to the ER. Mohave County is experiencing some of the highest Covid death rates in the state; 97% of the deaths were unvaccinated folks. I don't know how the data can be any more clear.

This is odd to me. My fully vaxxed wife who is in her early 40’s had a worse case than her 85 and 80 year old grandparents, who were infected in Jan before they were eligible to be vaccinated. All 3 cases were clinically “mild.” In other words how much credit or blame can a young(ish), healthy person ascribe to the vaccine for their unique outcome.

[theflashunc]

This is odd to me. My fully vaxxed wife who is in her early 40’s had a worse case than her 85 and 80 year old grandparents, who were infected in Jan before they were eligible to be vaccinated. All 3 cases were clinically “mild.” In other words how much credit or blame can a young(ish), healthy person ascribe to the vaccine for their unique outcome.

None. Vaccines keep people from dying.

[beeatnik]

^If you’re fully vaxxed, over 70 and immunocompromised you have a 2 in 100 risk of dying if you’re infected. Before vaccines it was 6 in 100. Better to never be infected. But, breakthroughs are rare, right?

[bigbill]

This is odd to me. My fully vaxxed wife who is in her early 40’s had a worse case than her 85 and 80 year old grandparents, who were infected in Jan before they were eligible to be vaccinated. All 3 cases were clinically “mild.” In other words how much credit or blame can a young(ish), healthy person ascribe to the vaccine for their unique outcome.

We're both in our mid 50s, she had the J&J and I had the Moderna. Her case was mild, I tested negative and had no symptoms. In other words, you assumed too much so you could make a point.

[beeatnik]

We're both in our mid 50s, she had the J&J and I had the Moderna. Her case was mild, I tested negative and had no symptoms. In other words, you assumed too much so you could make a point.

Why would you assume your wife would have a worse outcome if unvaccinated. Is she in ill health?

[vertical_doug]

Why would you assume your wife would have a worse outcome if unvaccinated. Is she in ill health?

Math?

On an individual basis, vaccinated or unvaccinated, her illness may have been mild. However, statistically, the purpose of the vaccine is really to lower severe outcomes. (There is already published data to show this)

The crux here is to find out, Bill's wife would need to be infected before getting vaccinated. Whatever her specific mortality figure would be , was maybe in their opinion, unacceptably high. So why not get the jab and have a significant percentage chance of an improved outcome. (What does the Israeli and UK studies show 10 x better outcome? ) So let's say her figure was 0.30% unvaxed. 0.03% vaxxed sounds like a much better outcome. Moreover, for a large population like the US, the population is statistically better off for the jab.

In general, you want to play the odds in your favour. So if you want to be pedantic, Bigbill can say she statistically had higher probability of a mild case after being vaxxed.

As long as we are being pedantic, what is your baseline for saying a vaxxed individual can be high infectious? A healthy non-infectious person, a infected non-vaxxed person, or should we narrow it exact demographics? Age, weight, sex person vaxxed or unvaxxed or healthy?

[zetroc]

It's clear to me that the beatnik's goal in this thread is to spread FUD (Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt) about vaccines by trying to pick apart the widely accepted and scientifically proven fact that they are good and are working as well as could be expected in the urgent fight against COVID-19. Every time he posts a link he's misrepresenting and misinterpreting data and studies to suit his agenda. He's not making these arguments out of any kind of good faith, but because he genuinely doesn't think that people should be getting vaccinated.

Please get vaccinated and encourage others to do likewise.

[echappist]

It's clear to me that the beatnik's goal in this thread is to spread FUD (Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt) about vaccines by trying to pick apart the widely accepted and scientifically proven fact that they are good and are working as well as could be expected in the urgent fight against COVID-19. Every time he posts a link he's misrepresenting and misinterpreting data and studies to suit his agenda. He's not making these arguments out of any kind of good faith, but because he genuinely doesn't think that people should be getting vaccinated.

Please get vaccinated and encourage others to do likewise.

No it's worse than that, for it's his way of telling the rest of us how original and nonconformist he is (as evidenced by his 144 posts in this thread, accounting for ~10% of total posts, with his percentage in the past few months even higher). Throughout the past 3-4 months on this thread, the majority of his post suggest that he really is nothing more than a gainsayer, someone who revels in being the contrarian but offers no alternative solution. Furthermore, he himself admits to being someone who would change his views depending on the group of which he is a part (see below); in other words, his views are opportunistic and possibly not even sincerely held.

He's not even a true believer (or in this case, antivax advocate), for he himself has taken the vaccine and characterizes himself as ambivalent. One would expect someone ambivalent not to be so vociferous on only one a particular side of the issue, but he is. Turns out, it's a special type of ambivalence: he's pro vaccine in the sense that he has received the vaccine for what he claims to be marginal benefits (we don't know what he actually believes), and on the flip side, he constantly casts doubt on the COVID vaccines. Ambivalence is therefore a misnomer: cakeism would be better, for he both wants to eat the cake the tangible benefits offered, all the while offering critiques at every turn. He could very well not eat the damn cake if he's so critical of it, but he himself also recognizes the benefits. He's slippery: offering up a "I'm vaccinated" and even qualified versions of "people should get vaccinated" when pressed, but otherwise takes delight in posting anything that shows the vaccine isn't 100% effective against infection (which isn't even the stated benefit of the vaccine, but he'll gladly stuff the strawman).

On the gainsaying front (for his posts from the past 3-4 months), notice that other than a few (if not sole) posts where he states that people should get vaccinated, he has never offered anything constructive (as in, if not the vaccine, then what) and only doubts. Even after his few (or single) posts saying that he thinks people should get vaccinated, he followed it up with more doubts. Never mind the fact that those who are severely sick (and needing hospitalization) are overwhelmingly unvaccinated (~10:1, accordingly to a CDC report from early September), because that isn't good enough. He'll instead trot out articles re: those who are severely sick (and some who passed away), without at all mentioning the overall ratio. It's just so intellectually dishonest. As standard rhetorical practice, it's never a good look to bury the lede. So on that front, someone who wants to advocate for vaccines should acknowledge negatives such as inability to prevent infection itself, declining levels of protection, and rare side effects; however, that advocacy is made despite of the negatives, for the benefit drastically outweighs the negatives on a society level. For the forum gainsayer, he really doesn't want to acknowledge any of the arguments detrimental to his position and hopes that the reader just can't be arsed enough to look.

As he stated in another thread that he himself started, he wishes he were living in Texas, where he'd be more obliged to fall in line with progressive ideals. The corollary being, if this forum were primarily frequented by people who would not believe in the current COVID mitigation strategies (e.g. masks indoors and vaccines), he'd be less inclined to critique those strategies. That's basically his entire spiel (which is, to be a contrarian), and most posters here have been way too kind in indulging him on it. It's like the one guy who always has something different to say in freshman year in college, solely to be the attention of the room.

Wish I lived in Tejas. I'd be more reflexively loyal to my progressive ideals and in lockstep against those anti-science, heartless R's.

I'll end the post with the following. Here's what he advocated about two months ago, something he described as "responsible messaging" on urging vaccination. One wonders how responsible such a view is, when hospitals can no longer accommodate non-COVID patients and when hospital staff in severely affected areas are experiencing compassion fatigue and moral injury (let's remember that our forum contrarian loves 'em social science jargon).

Responsible messaging:

https://twitter.com/BallouxFrancois/...64472771624968

Kindness is good policy.


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[Sascha Roszak]

17B51585-B021-4672-AC73-72520FD2DC1D.jpeg

[holliscx]

^ if that artist has done a cartoon about pronouns please let me know ... to quote my daughter's 4th grade teacher, boom, nailed it

[vertical_doug]

^ if that artist has done a cartoon about pronouns please let me know ... to quote my daughter's 4th grade teacher, boom, nailed it

How about a new sticker for your SUV to replace the baby on board sticker....

[holliscx]

I've got a buddy in Charlottesville who wants to find a "Coal provides jobs" or something similar bumpersticker for his electric car.

@vertical_doug if you know any stickers that fit that description lemme know .. the only thing I found was a "Prius repellent" down arrow that you stick right above the exhaust pipe but we're looking for more cerebral irony

[jclay]

I would love to know where this anti-mask, anti-vac opinions come from. And not just from the tin foil hat nut cases. Can anyone tell me? I was riding with one of my friends and we were chatting as we were going by the orchards in Berrien County, Michigan. He said he heard on NPR that one big source that promotes anti-vaccinations comes from the companies to make immunity boosting products. Anyway that is what i heard on a bike ride.

I go to church every week and from what I've learned, it is my responsibility to do things that are in the interest of others. This is why I find it strange that the religious community has a high percentage opposed to masking and vaccinations. Because besides somewhat protecting yourself, you are doing it for the good of society.

Simple: They're mad, they want you to know it and behaving like belligerent, disruptive fifth grade boys has been endorsed by the public figures amongst'em.

But you knew that.

From a macro perspective I really don't think you'll find a more functional, dare I say "better", rationale.

The academically interesting question to me is whether their behavior would have been different if Trump & Co had set a different tone from the get-go....but I kinda think the answer is "no". And since Trump is Trump, Abbot is Abbot, et al., it's kinda like wondering what the world would be like if F didn't equal ma in the Newtonian physics framework. This was destiny.

And then I start thinking about learning disabilities, just not very smart (organically) peeps and physical differences in brains.

I think Darwin has quite a bit more work to do before this sort of behavior starts settling out but given the magnitude and suite of unprecedented existential headwinds our (as in the worlds) resource intensive human population faces, and our unwillingness to face up to the changes demanded for long term survival of higher order animals, I'm not optimistic in any general sense.

Cheers! I'm out to the shop to beat on a frame in progress.

[Chik]

On a lighter note...

IMG_7485.jpg

[dgaddis]

Filed under "I just don't understand people" :: my grandparent's pastor passed away last week after spending a few weeks in the hospital with COVID. He wasn't vaccinated. This photo is a screenshot from the funeral at his church yesterday. Packed the rafters, more people still coming in, not one mask in sight. My cousin who also attended his church (and is vaccinated thankfully) is the one who shared the video, and I commented "He clearly made a huge impact on a lot of people, and will be missed by many. But I have to be honest, so many maskless folks crowded together for the funeral of someone who died of COVID while delta still rages on makes me nervous." Her response: "that's Southern Baptists for you. I was in that crowd too and we sitting among our church members that I have already been around. This was our pastor. He was loved by so many." Darwinism at work I guess.

[suspectdevice]

I've got a buddy in Charlottesville who wants to find a "Coal provides jobs" or something similar bumpersticker for his electric car.

@vertical_doug if you know any stickers that fit that description lemme know .. the only thing I found was a "Prius repellent" down arrow that you stick right above the exhaust pipe but we're looking for more cerebral irony

the organization you are looking for is called “friends of coal”.

You see their stickers on all the Norfolk Southern maintenance vehicles in Virginia, and on the cars of many Constitutional Officers in the Coal Fields region.

I’ve been traveling through the VA And WV coalfields quite a bit the last couple of months(the O.G. Pocahontas coal fields that made this region so wealthy fueling the warships of the British and American empires after WW1) meeting with county managers and engineers and tourism professionals hunting for idle mining properties to turn into mtb venues.

Among the remaining ruling classes across the Appalachian Highlands there are real conflicted feelings about coal, and reality.

Negative population growth from the last census is impacting these regions abilities to appropriate state and national funding, and specifically in Virginia, the coal region is losing a spot in the House of Delegates, further diluting perceptions of autonomy and local control.

Masking now, compared to last fall is mandatory in government buildings across the region, and back this spring the area near me in WV was leading the country in vax rates, but as ive mentioned in this thread multiple times, the Pandemic of the Unvaccinated is very, very real in the coal fields region.

[bigbill]

Update, my wife is asymptomatic as of Saturday. She had three days of severe head cold symptoms with fatigue (and a positive test). As quickly as it came on, it went away. She is still dealing with fatigue but rest and her returned appetite should help that.

The brother of a former co-worker (they're both mechanical engineers) is still in ICU barely clinging to life. His body reacts poorly to being placed in a prone position so the family had to make the tough decision to have a tracheotomy performed to insert the ventilator tube. If he lives, he will be severely affected for the remainder of his shortened life. About three weeks ago the family changed their tune and started encouraging everyone to get vaccinated.

[jclay]

^^^Glad your spouse is doing well; glad you have dodged the bullets.

Somewhere, a few years ago, I ran into a perfectly distilled turn of phrase that fits the anti-mask/vaccine/responsible-behavior situation; I failed to copy it and have never been able to find it. Here's an application; and if anybody runs into something that seems to fit the bill please ping me.

Some people can merely look at an anvil and perceive that if it falls on their foot it will hurt,
Some people have to be told but will then understand the principle or reality,
And then there are those who will not learn until the anvil actually falls on their foot and turns it to mush.

[steve garro]

Update, my wife is asymptomatic as of Saturday.

Good to hear - my niece and her BF thought they should play the Youth card and they have been sick as hell for weeks now but better then my buddy Tom who was strictly anti vaxx extra-conspiracy strength (He once sent Joe Arpio a giant metal ant that the bomb squad tried to detonate with no effect to the ant, he just wanted Joe to have it for all his 'good' work) and he's on his belly now fully intubated and I don't think he's gonna make it.
His last words before the tube went in was "Thank God I didn't give it to my GF"

My poor wife is so cooked from 1.5 years of this in healthcare - also, had I had my heart attack now instead of a year ago, I'd be the dead guy - we're full - count me in for empathy burnout, I just can't care anymore - even with my niece, and this sounds awful, but my initial reaction was:

"Dummies. I hope they live."

And I LOVE my niece

- Garro.

[Chik]

Some people can merely look at an anvil and perceive that if it falls on their foot it will hurt,
Some people have to be told but will then understand the principle or reality,
And then there are those who will not learn until the anvil actually falls on their foot and turns it to mush.

When I was about 3 years old, moments after I was told not to touch the kettle whilst it's on the stove because it's very hot, I put my hand on it. I guess I am (or was) the third category. :)