The Vaccine Thread

[bigbill]

"Dummies. I hope they live." And I LOVE my niece - Garro.

I feel that way about my employees who are still refusing to be vaccinated. At this point, about 25% of our workforce has been infected during the last year. We're fortunate that the majority of our employees are <40, but a few of the older ones have been forced into retirement because of the long term effects. A few are living on social security or disability and constantly on oxygen. Mohave County numbers are scary.

If the weather isn't epic, I'm thinking about an October 9-10 Tuthill trip. Up past the archery range to the powerlines is nice and quiet.

[Scott G.]

I've been told that to wear is mask is to live in fear, don't let fear rule your life,
by people who own enough guns to equip a platoon.

My cognitive dissonance meter has been broken for over a year,
supply chain issues, have prevented it's replacement.

[zetroc]

Man, I really can't know what's going on with you. Please encourage others to get vaccinated and please, for the love of god, stop cherrypicking data to suit your anti-vaccination agenda.

[j44ke]

Man, I really can't know what's going on with you. Please encourage others to get vaccinated and please, for the love of god, stop cherrypicking data to suit your anti-vaccination agenda.

Hi Steve:

I am not sure what you are reading, but I have not seen evidence that beeatnik has an anti-vaccination agenda. If you don't understand the statistics he's using or the points he's making, then ask him questions about it. If you think what he is saying is incorrect, quote that information and present your opposing viewpoint with supporting information. I will agree that what beeatnik presents is often challenging to understand and may at times not be stated clearly, but I have spent time behind the scenes asking him questions about his ideas and the points he's been making, and he has real ideas and questions and understanding of fact. And he is not an anti-vaxxer. He is most often asking questions about social inequality as manifested in medical treatment, the dispersal of information, and the reporting of risk, and in the variation of these aspects based on one's position in society. That's my take at least.

So let's move beyond your repeated advisory to "please encourage others to get vaccinated etc...." We've all heard it now.

[zetroc]

Mr. Ake,

Thanks for your input. I will note that, broadly, this is how disinformation campaigns work. Self-appointed experts cherry-pick data, misrepresent the results of studies, spread links wildly, and try to snow people with an avalanche of information that they know, if rebutted, they will just re-bury with more bad data. Since I and most others here are not experts, we are not equipped to debate this topic with the level of scientific rigor that it deserves, which only serves the agenda of the loudest voices in the room.

I haven't looked at the statistics very closely but on any given day there are hundreds of bicycle enthusiasts browsing this forum, all of whom are susceptible to disinformation, whether they think they are or not. Again, that's how disinformation campaigns work.

I would prefer not to cede the floor to the loudest person in the room, since that is who always gets listened to the most, especially when they are as disingenuous as the party in question, but I don't see that I have a choice. Indeed, I would rank "subjecting myself to read posts by a Debate Me Bro on a bicycle forum" at the very bottom of my list of preferred leisure activities.

Steve

[spopepro]

Hi Steve:

I am not sure what you are reading, but I have not seen evidence that beeatnik has an anti-vaccination agenda. If you don't understand the statistics he's using or the points he's making, then ask him questions about it. If you think what he is saying is incorrect, quote that information and present your opposing viewpoint with supporting information. I will agree that what beeatnik presents is often challenging to understand and may at times not be stated clearly, but I have spent time behind the scenes asking him questions about his ideas and the points he's been making, and he has real ideas and questions and understanding of fact. And he is not an anti-vaxxer. He is most often asking questions about social inequality as manifested in medical treatment, the dispersal of information, and the reporting of risk, and in the variation of these aspects based on one's position in society. That's my take at least.

So let's move beyond your repeated advisory to "please encourage others to get vaccinated etc...." We've all heard it now.

Jorn,
The social inequality issues as brought up are classic strawmen and while my field was algebraic topology and not applied math, beeatnik’s interpretations would fail my intro to stats class. It exists not to elevate the discourse, but exists in bad faith to win arguments at any cost. There is no rational response to such nonsense, which is why Steve keeps repeating himself. We know now that disinformation campaigns only get amplified by trying to reason with them, as Sartre let us know long ago.

[j44ke]

Mr. Ake,

Thanks for your input. I will note that, broadly, this is how disinformation campaigns work. Self-appointed experts cherry-pick data, misrepresent the results of studies, spread links wildly, and try to snow people with an avalanche of information that they know, if rebutted, they will just re-bury with more bad data. Since I and most others here are not experts, we are not equipped to debate this topic with the level of scientific rigor that it deserves, which only serves the agenda of the loudest voices in the room.

I haven't looked at the statistics very closely but on any given day there are hundreds of bicycle enthusiasts browsing this forum, all of whom are susceptible to disinformation, whether they think they are or not. Again, that's how disinformation campaigns work.

I would prefer not to cede the floor to the loudest person in the room, since that is who always gets listened to the most, especially when they are as disingenuous as the party in question, but I don't see that I have a choice. Indeed, I would rank "subjecting myself to read posts by a Debate Me Bro on a bicycle forum" at the very bottom of my list of preferred leisure activities.

Steve

Jorn,
The social inequality issues as brought up are classic strawmen and while my field was algebraic topology and not applied math, beeatnik’s interpretations would fail my intro to stats class. It exists not to elevate the discourse, but exists in bad faith to win arguments at any cost. There is no rational response to such nonsense, which is why Steve keeps repeating himself. We know now that disinformation campaigns only get amplified by trying to reason with them, as Sartre let us know long ago.

Part of the reason I engaged with beeatnik off-forum was because I felt my confusion with his posts might be intentionally created for the reasons you mention. As a moderator, I wanted to know what he was talking about. And I am satisfied that the confusion was not intentionally created. If social inequality is a classic straw-man, how do you recognize authentic inquiry, complaint or critique? I figure the best approach is to ask for clarification.

I find the decision not to respond to assertions you feel are specious or in error disappointing. If you have specific knowledge of facts that counter beeatnick's assertion, why would you withhold that knowledge? If you don't want to subject yourself to a disingenuous "argument bro", why are you reading the thread? And if you don't read the content in his posts, how do you know that he is disingenuous? Don't lower your responses to passive aggressive repetition. The expertise that any member of the forum brings into the discussion adds to the experience of other participants in the forum. I view that as a form of respect for others here.

I am not trying to enforce agreement with beeatnik. And I am not affixing a VSalon Good Housekeeping Seal to beeatnik's posts. I am saying that the assertions about his position on vaccinations are at least unfair and at worst mean-spirited. Without any textual support for that assertion, as moderator, I have to object to it as uncivil. And that's what I am doing.

Besides, while we swing way above average for discussion in this place, this is a frickin' framebuilding forum. Anyone who truly comes here to decide whether or not to get vaccinated should start here and work outwards: https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019...nes/index.html

[echappist]

Hi Steve:

I am not sure what you are reading, but I have not seen evidence that beeatnik has an anti-vaccination agenda. If you don't understand the statistics he's using or the points he's making, then ask him questions about it. If you think what he is saying is incorrect, quote that information and present your opposing viewpoint with supporting information. I will agree that what beeatnik presents is often challenging to understand and may at times not be stated clearly, but I have spent time behind the scenes asking him questions about his ideas and the points he's been making, and he has real ideas and questions and understanding of fact. And he is not an anti-vaxxer. He is most often asking questions about social inequality as manifested in medical treatment, the dispersal of information, and the reporting of risk, and in the variation of these aspects based on one's position in society. That's my take at least.

Just because he does not fit the stereotypical profile of a vocal anti-vaxxer does not mean that he does not seek to sow doubt on vaccination at every possible turn. And in case that's too many "nots" in that previous sentence, what I'm saying is that his posting history from the last 3-4 months and his own admission of wanting to be a contrarian leave little doubt that the purpose of his participation here is to sow doubt on vaccination whenever possible. That he does so by carrying an air of respectability (using sociology jargon and not couching his positions in overly ridiculous terms) does not detract from the view point he repeated espoused in this thread during the last 3-4 months. When pressed, he says he and his wife are vaccinated, but quickly eschew from saying that everyone eligible should be vaccinated. Instead he reposts tweets/articles that supports his position, as if he were appealing to some authority.

If anything, he's worse than the stereotypical antivaxxers, as at least for them, there is no difference in how they act vs what they say. They may be illogical, but at least they are consistent. For Beeatnik, who has expressly stated that he was vaccinated out of his own volition and for his own benefit, one gets the distinct sense that he is just cynically hedging: unwilling to give up on (what he presents to us as) marginal benefits conferred (which, mind, is sufficient enough to convince him to get vaccinated) but nonetheless can't resist posting anecdotes about deficiencies and defect of the vaccines, all the while being conspicuously silent whenever there is report showing benefit of the vaccines. He's performed a very good Jedi mind trick, via a combination of obfuscation and temporary retreats when confronted, but his own posting record indicate what he actually wants to espouse here. There are others here who are ambivalent about the vaccine, but only one person who repeatedly sows doubt at any chance possible. I'm enough of a pedantic git to have actually waded through his posts going back to June, and this is what I'm concluding.

As the old saying goes: when someone shows you who he is the first time, believe him. Doubly true if the showing is in another circumstance not directly related to the current one, but nonetheless a relevant circumstance. That other circumstance is when he started a thread and mused how he would be more inclined to be "reflexively loyal to my progressive ideals and in lockstep against those anti-science, heartless R's" (emphasis added). How he phrased that sentence, extemporaneously and almost without prompting, matters, because it lends insight into how he views himself. Whom do we generally think of as being reflexively loyal? Perhaps some poor sod in an authoritarian state, someone who has to spout the party line because to do anything different would invite trouble. That's how Beeatnik views following the general public health directives on vaccines: an act of being reflexively loyal. He's too cool for that.

So let's move beyond your repeated advisory to "please encourage others to get vaccinated etc...." We've all heard it now.

Those are no more tiresome than Beeatnik repeatedly trotting out another anecdote that tends to lend support his position. It's perfectly fine for a forum moderator to engage with a poster posting a view that doesn't represent what most here holds. It's quite something else to claim ambivalence and then to repeatedly post messages that shows anything but ambivalence, all the while declaring one is ambivalent. Ye sir doth protest too much.

[swt]

... If you have specific knowledge of facts that counter beeatnick's assertion, why would you withhold that knowledge?

What the hell is he asserting? I appreciate that as a mod you've done your due diligence, but I'd also say a bunch of us have unsuccessfully tried in good faith to figure it out on face value. Meanwhile, the most obvious answer is that he's trolling just like he does when commenting on other topics. And unlike when he's baiting people about bikes, in this thread he can get someone killed. Excuse me now while I prepare for him to incoherently paste screenshots from his phone of random pages from the CDC.

[spopepro]

I figure the best approach is to ask for clarification.

I think you will find that I, and others, have. And that those specific questions always go unanswered. It’s absolutely a strategy—only find flaws in what others say, bring up and endless variety of tangental data points, but never ever make a clear statement of position. The goal isn’t to make a point, it’s only to discredit others. It’s a slightly more sophisticated “just asking questions here” approach, but materially the same.

Now, I don’t think beeatnik is anti-vax or a conspiracy theorist. I think that they have done a lot of reading and have a lot of interest in what’s happening. I also think they are riding the peak of the dunning-kruger curve and desperately want to be recognized for being Right. They want to make arguments in abstraction, further cementing their “smartest guy in the room” status.

It seems innocent enough, but we now know this is how radical factions are bred on the internet. 4-Chan is full of very bright but awkward folks who only ever wanted to be recognized for how brilliant they imagined themselves to be. It allowed “alternative” stories to be told and take root under the banner of asking questions and seeking alternative viewpoints and boom… suddenly nazis were aksually ok. I’m not looking for post deletions, censure, or anything dramatic. But I think it’s important to call out behavior we know to be harmful.

[echappist]

I think you will find that I, and others, have. And that those specific questions always go unanswered. It’s absolutely a strategy—only find flaws in what others say, bring up and endless variety of tangental data points, but never ever make a clear statement of position. The goal isn’t to make a point, it’s only to discredit others. It’s a slightly more sophisticated “just asking questions here” approach, but materially the same.

Now, I don’t think beeatnik is anti-vax or a conspiracy theorist. I think that they have done a lot of reading and have a lot of interest in what’s happening. I also think they are riding the peak of the dunning-kruger curve and desperately want to be recognized for being Right. They want to make arguments in abstraction, further cementing their “smartest guy in the room” status.

Exactly this. This happens to almost anyone here who tried to engage on the basis of good faith, to wait and see what he has to say. Instead, he'll conveniently remain silent and let it go unanswered.


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Also, I'm not against all instances of him casting doubts about the vaccine. We each owe ourselves a clear view of the limitations of the various vaccines, and the anecdotes he posted a few months ago (e.g. NY Yankee breakthrough cases and the Provincetown cluster) served as reminders of the limits of vaccination. He may or may not have other motives for posting about those back then, but I think those do serve a purpose (even if he didn't intend it that way), and that is we are made aware that we shouldn't let our guards down, just because we are vaccinated.

Now that everyone knows breakthrough cases will happen, it's less clear what benefit his persistent casting of doubt aims to serve.

[kdawg]

They just approved the vaccine for 12-16 year old's here - starting yesterday. We were lined up at 8am along with a few others. Definitely a relief to get that done because schools are a problem at the moment - and hopefully that will help.

[j44ke]

Well I am certainly not here to argue his own points. He's plenty capable of standing up for himself. What doesn't sit well with my function as moderator is scaling his approach up to being life threatening. Or marginalizing his efforts to communicate by affixing the scarlet "A" of anti-vaxxer. In good faith, he may simply be struggling to understand what is happening and that is evidenced by the efficacy and content of communication. I think I can identify with that struggle - to understand and be understood.

Anyway, I don't want to make this on an existential referendum on beeatnik. This has on average been a good thread I think, and as they say in a playground debrief, beeatnik started it. However, its life depends on continued contribution from others, so it's up to to the forum to carry forth or not.

[dgaddis]

...My poor wife is so cooked from 1.5 years of this in healthcare.....

My wife is a NP and works in a general practice office, and feels the same way. Every day she tries to convince her patients to get the shot if they haven't had it, and every once and a while she'll win one over. But way too frequently she has patients who said 'no thanks' show up a few weeks later sick. Most get over it, as most people do. But some of them have died.

[steve garro]

My wife is a NP and works in a general practice office, and feels the same way. Every day she tries to convince her patients to get the shot if they haven't had it, and every once and a while she'll win one over. But way too frequently she has patients who said 'no thanks' show up a few weeks later sick. Most get over it, as most people do. But some of them have died.

It's when security has to pry a Sig-other out of the room as the other dies intubated while they are screaming THERE IS NO COVID that's frustrating and stressful - that and trying to keep people from getting covid while some employees won't get vaccinated

I wish she could walk away forever from this job



- Garro.

[thollandpe]

Hey let's go easy on @beeatnik. He may be a contrarian but he's our contrarian.

And for the record, "Please get vaccinated and encourage others to do likewise." is sound advice.

[classtimesailer]

Are you getting the boosters as soon as they are "officially" approved for sale or will you wait to see the data demonstrating efficacy?

And for the record, "Pay attention to the parties benefitting from the New Normal." is a good idea.

Yes, there is a Virus.

[jimcav]

I'd love a 3rd shot. Two Pfizer seemed to help my post-covid high HR with minimal exertion issue, but it isn't gone. There are more anecdotal reports I've read with the Moderna vaccine alleviating some long-haul symptoms, so I hope for #3 I can get a Moderna.

I miss being able to push hard to the point my legs felt like lead and I might vomit. Now I have to shuffle-jog on foot, running is but a memory; and on the MTB the Eagle dinner plate replaces the mash-gear I used to use on the hills of local trails. If I try anything harder, I feel SOB, a no-shit air hunger I have not felt since water confidence training 24 years ago in the navy for scuba where they'd rip off all our gear underwater and see if we could get it all back together before we ran out of breath. At the same time, my HR goes to 170-201 and I feel passing out is imminent unless I stop. So far I've had the sense to stop.

[Chik]

I'd love a 3rd shot. Two Pfizer seemed to help my post-covid high HR with minimal exertion issue, but it isn't gone. There are more anecdotal reports I've read with the Moderna vaccine alleviating some long-haul symptoms, so I hope for #3 I can get a Moderna.

I miss being able to push hard to the point my legs felt like lead and I might vomit. Now I have to shuffle-jog on foot, running is but a memory; and on the MTB the Eagle dinner plate replaces the mash-gear I used to use on the hills of local trails. If I try anything harder, I feel SOB, a no-shit air hunger I have not felt since water confidence training 24 years ago in the navy for scuba where they'd rip off all our gear underwater and see if we could get it all back together before we ran out of breath. At the same time, my HR goes to 170-201 and I feel passing out is imminent unless I stop. So far I've had the sense to stop.

Speaking of Moderna, some encouraging findings:

Low-dose mRNA-1273 COVID-19 vaccine generates durable memory enhanced by cross-reactive T cells

[classtimesailer]

Speaking of Moderna, some encouraging findings:

Low-dose mRNA-1273 COVID-19 vaccine generates durable memory enhanced by cross-reactive T cells

Disclaimer: Study funded by Moderna and Coalition for Epidemic Preparedness Innovation (Bill Gates).