Bicycle Quarterly Reviews the Love #3

[Human Epic Jolt]

It's all in the details--woolens, tweed, straps and badges . . . hard to find a truly authentic source on the internet.

advance on foot to bear mountain. stop. await futher instruction. stop.

[Scott G.]

Results are in for the Summer "Why BQ is crazy" thread race.

Bravo to Vsalon for getting to 256 posts faster than kids across the hall,
who started days earlier and have only reached 133 posts.

Obviously, Vsalon planes better than that stiff old forum.

[e-RICHIE]

where is reed irvine when you need him at atmo?

Results are in for the Summer "Why BQ is crazy" thread race.

Bravo to Vsalon for getting to 140 posts faster than kids across the hall,
who started days earlier and have only reached 133 posts.

Obviously, Vsalon planes better than that stiff old forum.

[corsa,inc]

The Pegoretti build tells me a lot about BQ and their lack of knowledge and integrity. The bike is setup like a train wreck and to try to come away with any type of review from that bike is absurd.
As for his stance on bikes it's obvious that Jan into long distance, self supported races over rough roads. It would make sense that a rando style bike would be the best bike for that purpose and therefore would make it a "race bike".
A "race bike" is only as good as it's intended race.
That said I have a collection of bikes that would make a high end shop blush and the Pegoretti Love #3 is on the do not sell list.

[Cookietruck]

What's the cut off for considering a bike low trail? For a 700c rando with a bag a trail around 40 is typical. Lose the bag but keep the 25-28c tires and go to a trail around 50. I'd think that's "low" trail but not all that much lower then modern bikes.

i see what you're sayin.
some other aren't getting. you kinda originally commented on descending with ~50mm trail and 25-28c tires might be faster...other dudes just saw faster and then started talkin about crits n shit and how the bars ain't that low and then some others sayin bars are actually about right.
and also implyin that every french bike ever built has 30mm of trail or something no matter the purpose of the bike.

well anyway...here's that singer you're talkin about. straight from some dudes flickr, a pic right out the window of the singer shop.
badass bike too. i'd ride it.

[henry g.]

i see what you're sayin.
some other aren't getting. you kinda originally commented on descending with ~50mm trail and 25-28c tires might be faster...other dudes just saw faster and then started talkin about crits n shit and how the bars ain't that low and then some others sayin bars are actually about right.
and also implyin that every french bike ever built has 30mm of trail or something no matter the purpose of the bike.

well anyway...here's that singer you're talkin about. straight from some dudes flickr, a pic right out the window of the singer shop.
badass bike too. i'd ride it.

exactly. It's not outside of the realm of possibility that someone might make a CF race bike for the Northern Classics with trail in the low 50's and 28c tires. We already have CF bikes that take FMB 27's just a bit more fork rake and you have a modern version of a Singer race bike.

[Don Walker]

I'm throwing in my $.02

Who exactly would believe his review over the hundreds upon hundreds of Pegoretti owners recommendations? Seriously?

All things considered, I cannot believe he would even test a bike that was not even close to fitting him and why he chose to write a review it knowing the fit was so far off.

one word here. FAIL!

DW

[DOOFUS]

now those are two properly setup race bikes -- they should have that shit on the website.

my fav handling bike of all time -- a 57cm giordana with the box crown fork back in the mid 90s -- had 5cm of trail. used 23s on it, though. like any other number, it doesn't mean anything by itself, but in the context of the total frame design. my rock lobster had 6cm of trail, my beloved junky fuji 55. its all in the range. depends on the other lengths and angles.

I for one never implied that every fucking french bike had 30mm of trail.

[nortonnels]

To be fair, we (Dario and Gita) were given an opportunity to respond to Jan's article before it went to print. We opted not to respond. My thoughts were that the VSalon folks would present a much better response than we ever could! I was proven correct. Dario did ask me to confirm whether or not the bike reviewed was a custom or stock frame. It was indeed a stock 60 cm (not 58 as stated in the article) Love #3 which has a 58.5 cm top tube and 60.41 cm front center measurement. The bike was built by George Gibbs of Il Vecchio in Seattle for a customer who physically is quite different than Jan. My understanding from George is that he is quite happy with his bike.

Nelson Frazier
Gita Sporting Goods, Ltd.

[Dave Kirk]

This has been an interesting thread but at the same time has veered away from the original topic and that is the review of the Pegoretti.

Seeing the set up of the bike as it was tested totally undermines the results and IMO they can not be taken seriously. In my mind it would be like a running magazine testing running shoes and commenting that they didn't provide the sure footing and stability needed while never telling you that the tester wears a size 10 but tested a size 13. At that point all that can be taken seriously is that the tester liked the color or the workmanship but the rest is less than worthless and borders on dishonest.

I think the tester and mag in question have gotten enough free publicity from this and I hope it doesn't sell any more copies of the publication just so people can read the ill conceived review. All the stuff about this or that trail or French vs. race geometry is a red herring. The tester didn't do his homework plan and simple and all results from the test should be considered to me suspect plain and simple. If the tester wanted to conduct an honest review he would have done so - but he made a conscious choice not to do so. His motivation for doing so can only be known to him - but he made that choice. I will now make my free choice to tell everyone that ever asks me what I think of the honesty and integrating of the tester and the quality of the publication. I know that my word will carry little weight with his faithful but it's one more nail in the coffin he just provided.

Free choice is a good thing and cuts both ways.

dave

[Lionel]

The bike was built by George Gibbs of Il Vecchio in Seattle for a customer who physically is quite different than Jan. My understanding from George is that he is quite happy with his bike.

Nelson Frazier
Gita Sporting Goods, Ltd.

Jeez, that's a scary thought...

[72gmc]

An error in judgment. I wonder if any of the tester's cohorts tried to talk him out of publishing it.

[bellman]

An error in judgment. I wonder if any of the tester's cohorts tried to talk him out of publishing it.

No kidding, the 'send' button is forever these days

[richmond]

Not much more needs to be added! I have a Love #3 and it fits me well and its great fun to ride. Anyone can post an opinion but its motivation can't be determined. If someone opined that they tested a Mercedes E Class but preferred Chryslers because that"s what they are most familiar with and panned the Benz would you care about the opinion?

[davids]

One of these is not like the other.

[hampco]

Just for the sake of argument - and not to try pile on here - I offer a picture of a frame that Dario built for me. I gave him very little input other than size and I requested steel. The bike is/was perfect but I sold to a pal who wanted it more than I. Imagine if Jan had done the same, possibly specifying that he likes flexy frames with lots of fork rake - my guess is that this whole brouhaha would be considerably different.

If you don't ask for what you want you probably won't get it.

Anyway...

[DOOFUS]

adding to the dario praise with some nostalgic drivel (a sure sign this thread may be done)

gimmie a stiff, round-tubed, 3-pound 7005 frame that handles like my old dario-designed 57cm giordana, and I'll show you my vision of a perfect race bike

[pdmtong]

I think Dario/Gita made the right call by choosing to remain silent on the article. The local music critic pretty much hates most concerts I happen to like. The local movie reviewer pans a lot of things I like too. Am I right? Is the reviewer right? Depends if you are 'the beholder"

Anyone thinking about dropping $5k+ on a bike, and who has found Dario can see through the BQ drivel. Formal response to this, and various grant P nuances is not productive. thoise guys see the world from a different lens, and are entitled to do so. I dont' like seeing false testing any more than anyone else here, but it's up to the reader to react intelligently in the context of their needs/wants.

[Watoni]

http://www.velocipedesalon.com/forum...html#post72016

What I find sad is the apparent lack of integrity in the review.

I would not review a bike (and a builder) based on riding a friend's ill-fitting exemplar.

This just in -- ________ bikes blow based on my review of TooTall's ... perhaps if I grew about 10" the bike would be ok for the bike path ...

P.S. My Pegs are different in terms of geometry (one stock Nerac, one custom), and what would be interesting (to me at least) would be any thoughts from Dario on the tweaks he made to make the custom (Marcelo) a bike for very long days in the saddle (as would be appropriate for a rider like Jan).

[Jan Heine]

I just returned from a long ride this weekend, and was a bit surprised by the brouhaha on this list. It appears that few of the commenters have read the article, and that there are some misperceptions about what we wrote.

First, we never said that we “didn’t like” the Pegoretti. The summary of the article clearly says “It performs well under constant efforts” and the conclusion states “it offers a pleasant feel.” It’s not a bad bike. Was it the best bike we’ve ever ridden? No, but I think we clearly state the reasons why.

Regarding the fit – I ride many bikes, and I found that bar height to the millimeter is not crucial for me. I rode the Pegoretti more in the drops than I would on most bikes, because the head tube extension pushed the bars higher up. When you measure how deep the drops are, you realize that 40 mm isn’t a huge deal. The Pegoretti's drops were deeper than the ones I usually ride, so the difference in the end was minor. And when you look at Fausto Coppi’s bikes, you see that he had his handlebars pretty high up, too. Didn’t slow him down much, did it?

I am concerned with bar reach – in fact, that is how I size my bikes. Looking over Pegoretti’s sizes, a smaller frame would have made the top tube much too short... Here are the sizes for the Love3:

Frame Geometry

I was surprised that Pegorettis apparently are sized for a more upright position than most performance-oriented riders prefer. The test bike had a huge 45 mm head tube extension, so it is sized like a conventional 62.5 cm frame (center-center), yet its top tube measured 57.5 cm. To get the bars 4 cm lower, we would have had to accept a 55 cm top tube! Now that would have affected the bike’s performance! (I know that Pegoretti offers custom frames, but my build is very normal, and I usually fit on stock bikes quite well.)

When you look at the Trek Madone we tested in the same issue, its bars also were a bit higher than I usually ride. It didn’t affect that bike’s performance, either. Both testers set some of their fastest times on the Trek.

Regarding the handling, the “pro racers don’t descend at the limit of adhesion” actually was a quote from Alex Stieda, the first North American to wear the yellow jersey in the Tour de France. He told the story how he tried to make up positions in the bunch on a descent, only to have Hinault's lieutenant ride up and tell him to "stop risking lives." Stieda may know more about pro racing than most on this forum.

When you ask motorcycle racers whether a motorbike on 23 mm tires pumped to 100 psi can handle well, they’ll laugh and tell you that they run much wider tires at 35 to 40 psi. As Hinault's lieutenant pointed out to Alex Stieda, bike races aren’t won descending. Otherwise, racing bikes would look quite different.

On to the next: While I enjoy riding long distances, we did not evaluate the Pegoretti as a brevet bike. We tested it as a racing bike – riding it up to 100 miles, climbing hills fast, descending, sprinting. I raced for 10 years, all the way up to Category 2, so I think I have a good idea what racing requires. If you don’t believe it, look at the power figures from our double-blind tests of frame stiffness. We managed to get up to about 900 Watts for uphill sprints, repeatedly, and could sustain 625 Watts. That doesn't put us in the league of Cancellara, but I doubt that many Pegoretti owners put out more. We didn’t complain that the Pegoretti doesn’t accept fenders or wide tires, or that it can’t carry luggage. We don’t expect that from a racing bike. We expect it to perform well, period.

We only test bikes that we think will appeal to our readers. I once rode a Pegoretti Marcelo for 15 miles, and rather liked it. When people told me that for true performance, we should go to the Love 3, we figured that we should test one of those. In the end, we just report what we find. There are some surprises, both to us and our readers. We liked a Trek Madone, we weren’t too fond of some steel bikes, we thought a French bike handled poorly… we call it as we see it.

Finally, we did pass the test report along to the importer, Gita, asking them to pass it along to Mr. Pegoretti. If they felt that we needed a different size, or that we had overlooked or misinterpreted something else, they should have said so. Which other publication allows the makers to comment before the test is published? And which prints there comments alongside the original test article. Gita and Dario Pegoretti chose not to reply… which is fine, too.

To summarize, the Pegoretti’s sizing gives you a hint at its apparent audience. It’s sized for casual riders who don’t want to/can’t stretch out on the bike like a racer. It feels good under constant efforts, but for us, it worked less well in all-out sprints. But then, casual riders don't sprint... Now you can argue that casual riders might be better on wider tires that offer more comfort, but that overlooks the strong aesthetic appeal of a racing bike with narrow tires. As an aesthetic choice, I can see the Love3's appeal.

In the end, most purchases are aesthetic choices, anyhow. People buy a Porsche or Ferrari because they like the looks, the story behind it, but not because they will get from A to B faster than they would in a Subaru WRX Sti. There is nothing wrong with aesthetic choices, but magazine tests have to provide the facts. The aesthetic choices are up to the readers. That way, Porsche drivers aren't disappointed when they get passed by a well-driven Subaru on the twisty road in the mountains. That is why we never have a "Bike of the Year" or even a comparison test – each bike appeals to different people. If you like your Pegoretti, then it is the right bike for you.

Jan Heine
Editor
Bicycle Quarterly
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