Muller, Flynn, et al.

[jclay]

^^^. Gets it.

[Corso]

But they all do it.

Consider the source. Not what I’d call a non-biased publication.

[dogrange]

Consider the source. Not what I’d call a non-biased publication.

Do you think that Trump does not lie a lot?

[Christian Fox]

I would argue that Trump's lies are more pernicious and actually insidious in their nature. Because he is the president, and so his words have weight, his lies lead to the erosion of trust in science, the media, etc. He calls reports and people that disagree with him liars and "fake news" without actually providing evidence, and instead, lets people's biases fill in what he doesn't say. When actually faced with something he got wrong (see Roy Moore), he dissembles and instead says that he had it right all along. Obama might have broken a promise, but ultimately you should be more peeved at Congress who is actually responsible for legislating the dang thing; the President can say whatever they want, but ultimately it is in the hands of legislators to actually create these laws.

Nope. It's called Obamacare for a reason. It's his legacy. You don't get to take credit when things work out and pass the blame when it goes to shit. And "peeved" doesn't cut it....not even close. Try panicked or distressed.

I view Trump's lies as a sideshow. I don't think of him as an opinion maker. He is the ultimate manifestation of the divide in this country. His supporters don't care and his detractors know he's full of shit. His words don't seem to have the weight to change minds.

Nothing is more insidious than a polished, friendly guy lying to your face, then demanding a six figure check.

[Matthew Strongin]

Consider the source. Not what I’d call a non-biased publication.

Then do you think they've omitted Obama lies or fabricated Trump lies?

[murphy]

Nope. It's called Obamacare for a reason. It's his legacy. You don't get to take credit when things work out and pass the blame when it goes to shit. And "peeved" doesn't cut it....not even close. Try panicked or distressed.

I view Trump's lies as a sideshow. I don't think of him as an opinion maker. He is the ultimate manifestation of the divide in this country. His supporters don't care and his detractors know he's full of shit. His words don't seem to have the weight to change minds.

Nothing is more insidious than a polished, friendly guy lying to your face, then demanding a six figure check.

I have to disagree with you. Presidents can stump all they want and try to get legislators to do something, but ultimately legislation is done in the chambers of Congress and not at 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue; he can help try to get people to work together or hash things out, but he is still an outsider. Furthermore, he didn't start calling it Obamacare; conservative commentators trying to get it associated to him did since they knew that a large majority of their listeners/watchers didn't like him, and so, by having it associated to him, they would dislike the law.

The fact that Obama had 18 lies in 8 years and Trump has over 100 in 1 is telling to me. That indicates to me that a great deal of thought and care was put into Obama's remarks and his public face. And again I must disagree with you on Trump being an opinion-maker. He is the president. Full stop. His words matter. Anyone who reaches that many people, their words and actions matter.

[dogrange]

I view Trump's lies as a sideshow.

When you have the President of the USA remarking that Nazis are "good people" and then doubling down on those remarks when challenged, it is more than a sideshow. I could go on, but there are many other examples of his words rising well above the level where they can be casually brushed off.

[vertical_doug]

The NYTimes piece follows an OpEd in the Washington Post dealing with the cruelty of Trump's lies. We can all say politicans lie. But these lies tend to be to obscure facts. Trump's lies come part and parcel with a level of cruelty in putdowns that have not been present in modern politics. This is what should really worry people. Inside Trump, there is a real hateful individual with deep problems.

[King Of Dirk]

The NYTimes piece follows an OpEd in the Washington Post dealing with the cruelty of Trump's lies. We can all say politicans lie. But these lies tend to be to obscure facts. Trump's lies come part and parcel with a level of cruelty in putdowns that have not been present in modern politics. This is what should really worry people. Inside Trump, there is a real hateful individual with deep problems.

I agree with you. At the same time, I worry about a President who thinks it's funny to make cracks about the Special Olympics. It's just cruel. His apology doesn't make it okay.

[Matthew J]

I fear you will think I'm being snarky, but I promise I'm not. Just have genuine questions about some of your points: If they can get to their job, why can't they get to the place where the IDs are issued? How are they working for less than the minimum wage?

The population density issue is a very fair point. We are a state of extremes, with areas like Houston, Austin, etc contrasting with areas like Haskell, Cut and Shoot, Point Blank and Goliad. Here, though, folks in rural areas are more likely to own a car than their urban counterparts. I think this a great example of why each state is different, and therefore should do things differently. Glad you mentioned that.

I love this forum.

If you live and work in town A - then walking or taking a bus to work, to the grocery store - or at least the 7-11 which is all some small towns have, etc. (assuming available) may be a challenge, but doable.

But the if the nearest ID center is not in your town but rather in some other town 100 miles away, then there is a real problem.

Adding insult to injury, I recall reading about someone in Wisconsin without access to computers - and thus not sure what she needed to bring to get the ID - who took advantage of a church bus ride to the nearest ID center only to learn she did not bring the right support to get the ID.

[Matthew J]

There are lies to bitch about over a $15 glass of chardonnay, and there are lies that impact us in a direct, tangible way. Because Obama's biggest lies, "If you like your insurance, you can keep it" and his assertion that health care costs would go down, were massively distressing to me and my family at the time, and continues to affect us to this day. Immediately prior to that lie, my health insurance was $12,000/yr....for 2018 it will be $32,000. That's for a family of four. Maybe I'm being selfish, but I'm just a guy trying to feed a family, run a business, and provide my employees with good health insurance.

Obama also owned up to issues with the ACA and offered viable solutions for fixing those problems. Many states and significant blocks in Congress and the Senate refused to work with the Obama Administration and the Democrats to fix them.

[Matthew J]

Consider the source. Not what I’d call a non-biased publication.

The link in question provides every cited example. Unless you can show the Trump examples either did not happen (and I either saw Trump say or read his tweets for many of them) or there are missing Obama lies then your point is a non sequitur

[King Of Dirk]

If you live and work in town A - then walking or taking a bus to work, to the grocery store - or at least the 7-11 which is all some small towns have, etc. (assuming available) may be a challenge, but doable.

But the if the nearest ID center is not in your town but rather in some other town 100 miles away, then there is a real problem.

Adding insult to injury, I recall reading about someone in Wisconsin without access to computers - and thus not sure what she needed to bring to get the ID - who took advantage of a church bus ride to the nearest ID center only to learn she did not bring the right support to get the ID.

Yup, you're right. That's what I'd call an undue hardship. I think it's a tough line to walk when you're in a state like mine with millions of people who don't have the right to vote here, and it's wise to ensure only citizens are able to cast a vote. How to distinguish citizens from permanent residents or illegal aliens without ID, but how to get ID to every citizen? I sure can see the problem, but I'm damned if I know the answer.

[nahtnoj]

There are lies to bitch about over a $15 glass of chardonnay, and there are lies that impact us in a direct, tangible way. Because Obama's biggest lies, "If you like your insurance, you can keep it" and his assertion that health care costs would go down, were massively distressing to me and my family at the time, and continues to affect us to this day. Immediately prior to that lie, my health insurance was $12,000/yr....for 2018 it will be $32,000. That's for a family of four. Maybe I'm being selfish, but I'm just a guy trying to feed a family, run a business, and provide my employees with good health insurance.

I like to think most of the consternation over the ACA is bullshit from rich assholes like Papa Fucking John - pizza will go up 8 cents a pie! So what?!?!? Screw you, provide health insurance to your employees, you greedy prick. No one gives a shit about paying 8 cents more for a pizza.

I run a small business, and I know how much insurance costs for the 10 of us. Its a lot, our second biggest expense.

But, 32K a year for a family of four...wow...

[Matthew J]

I sure can see the problem, but I'm damned if I know the answer.

Thread drift but it really seems high time for some sort of national identification data base. In the case I cite above the woman did not have her birth certificate. In most (maybe all?) states, birth certificates are kept by a county government office. Many require the person to appear in question in order to get a certified copy. If someone was born in New Jersey but now lives in Oregon, getting that certificate is a significant event.

And before anyone jumps in, I am fully aware of many good reasons we would not necessarily want to trust the feds with a national ID data base. Society just seems to be pushing us to a point where there is no viable alternative.

[Saab2000]

Thread drift but it really seems high time for some sort of national identification data base. In the case I cite above the woman did not have her birth certificate. In most (maybe all?) states, birth certificates are kept by a county government office. Many require the person to appear in question in order to get a certified copy. If someone was born in New Jersey but now lives in Oregon, getting that certificate is a significant event.

And before anyone jumps in, I am fully aware of many good reasons we would not necessarily want to trust the feds with a national ID data base. Society just seems to be pushing us to a point where there is no viable alternative.

Of course this is the direction this needs to go. The rest of the world has something along these lines and while it could be used for nefarious purposes, mostly it just works.

I lived in Europe for a long time and stuff that would be considered government overreach and 'tyranny' here in the US is normal there and nobody worries about it.

[King Of Dirk]

Of course this is the direction this needs to go. The rest of the world has something along these lines and while it could be used for nefarious purposes, mostly it just works.

I lived in Europe for a long time and stuff that would be considered government overreach and 'tyranny' here in the US is normal there and nobody worries about it.

I'm looking at my passport, complete with the CBP Global Entry sticker and the NEXUS endorsement. Not too worried about the Feds having my biographical data. Of course, if one never wanted to: leave the country; return to the country; buy a firearm; receive Medicare, Medicaid or Social Security; rent a P.O. Box.... then I can see staying away from the Feds.

We live in a world where people use their fingerprints (or face!!) to unlock a wireless device which bounces signals off of government controlled satellites to access federally-insured bank accounts to log into websites and have boxes of rubber dogshit delivered to their home or office. By all means, Tillerson, take my freakin' picture and send me a card I can use to authenticate my voting ballot.

[Corso]

The link in question provides every cited example. Unless you can show the Trump examples either did not happen (and I either saw Trump say or read his tweets for many of them) or there are missing Obama lies then your point is a non sequitur

I’m not going to waste my time looking up Obamas lies, but off the top of my head:

“I was always against Iraq”…but voted for going to war.

“we don’t spike the ball” talking about taking down Bin Laden, them proceeded to mention “I got Bin laden” every chance he could.

"Fast and Furious" began under the Bush…., um, no.

Isis was “contained” and a "JV team"… no need to explain that.

"We have doubled the distance our cars will go on a gallon of gas.”….oh really?

"The vast majority of the money I got was from small donors.’’….maybe Bernie, But Wall St and big business floated Barry.

“We’re going to lower your premiums by up to $2500 per family per year.”…I’m still waiting for my rates to go down.

He also publicly claimed he quit smoking, but insiders know (and a few photographs proved) he did not.


So that’s 8 additional ones off the top of my head, and the paper could only list 18?

Really, read that article, it reeks of “anti-Trump” from the first paragraph.
Does Trump lie? Sure. But this article’s slant is undeniable. This article is exactly what I’ve been saying: The media goes out of it’s way to make Trump look like the devil, and does everything it can to make Obama look like an Angel.

[vertical_doug]

I agree with you. At the same time, I worry about a President who thinks it's funny to make cracks about the Special Olympics. It's just cruel. His apology doesn't make it okay.

True and fair point. The bowling comment by Obama was stupid and he did apologize. Whether you believe it as sincere or not is another matter. I believe Obama does admit mistakes. You compare that to Trump's mocking of the NYTimes reporter who suffers from the chronic condition with arms. I do not think Trump even apologized.

[King Of Dirk]

True and fair point. The bowling comment by Obama was stupid and he did apologize. Whether you believe it as sincere or not is another matter. I believe Obama does admit mistakes. You compare that to Trump's mocking of the NYTimes reporter who suffers from the chronic condition with arms. I do not think Trump even apologized.

I expect better from all of them. My list of problems with the current occupant at 1600 Penn is long; I don't think he's capable of apology. Like Corso's post above, I'm all for having one standard for both parties. I'm tired of the silliness from both sides, tweeting/shrieking about issues that affect few while ignoring $20 trillion in debt and an increasingly ignorant electorate. There are crucial problems which need grown-ups to address them, instead of having a fit over some Yale prof's cultural appropriation vis-à-vis a Halloween costume, or whether Maxine Waters resembles the Godfather of Soul.

The idiots get all the air time. Panem et Circensus. It's killing our country. Neither side has the discipline or the inclination to fix it.