Texas

[thollandpe]

…we all wished Uvalde's officers had those military-style weapons and military-style training which defunding wishes to eliminate.

Why do you think that the answer to this problem, especially at this point, is adding more weapons?

The man who is not cooperating with the investigation was chief of the Uvalde Independent School District police force, a unit specifically dedicated (and funded and trained, I assume) to keep the schools safe.

My opinion is that schools need more nurses, more social workers, adequate supplies, and higher teacher pay. Maybe fewer hours in the school day, and/or more time outside.

Not more guns.

[gregl]

The man who is not cooperating with the investigation was chief of the Uvalde Independent School District police force, a unit specifically dedicated (and funded and trained, I assume) to keep the schools safe.

The fundamental question: why does a town with a population of 16K need an independent police force dedicated to the school district? If the school is under threats so great that a separate, independent police force is necessary to “ensure” student safety, then the larger problems of society in general and that community in particular have been ignored or even worse, enabled.

Greg

[j44ke]

Post-Trump-Wall and Border crisis, the decisive involvement of the CBP only adds to the sense-making challenge (futility) of this tragedy. Last month, on a long drive towards Imperial County (50 miles from the Border), I related to my wife the complex relationship between Mexican-Americans/Chicanos and the Border Patrol. Some Latinx (mostly young) are shocked that most Latinx (Mexican-American/Chicano/a) have mostly positive attitudes about Border Patrol and ICE. Why? Because in many towns, they provide the majority of high paying jobs. Why? Because Latinx generally respect law enforcement. Why? Because most of us have at least one family member employed by these agencies.

Which I why I wondered if the connection to the community might be stronger for the Border Patrol officers that potentially the town police force. I know in Arizona, having a brother uncle cousin in the Border Patrol is not uncommon and that person is looked up to as having made-it as a breadwinner and not a traitor to the community as might be expected.

...

The description of the Border Patrol members being specially trained - does that necessarily mean they were a SWAT team? I would expect Border Patrol generally to be "specially trained" because their job is managing a very complex situation almost continually. I didn't read that as meaning a group trained specifically for situations like a SWAT team or that would have been noted in reports. The description "ad hoc" usually means something like made on the spot to fit the task at hand.

As far as more weapons, my impression is that the officers who went in and killed the shooter probably had weapons that anyone could have gone into a gun shop and purchased, just as the shooter himself did several days weeks months previously. So it wasn't ended with a high tech show of space age technology. They perhaps just had better training, a solid plan and a lot of guts. And a door key.

I think that's what the defunding argument asks for. Putting the latest high tech weapon in the hands of someone who doesn't have training, can't improvise strategically in an emergency and doesn't have the kind of guts it takes to be a cop is an immeasurable waste of money and creates situations where escalation is inevitable and people get killed. In my mind, the gun comes last. The other three are more important. Find good people, train the heck out of them in all facets of their work, and compensate them at a level that recognizes the dangers and difficulties of the job - and their skills at achieving humane outcomes.

[Peter Polack]

Why do you think that the answer to this problem, especially at this point, is adding more weapons?

Because a hand gun against an AR-15 is the definition of being outmatched and sending a cop armed with a Glock against a shooter with an AR-15 with a 30 round clip is a suicide mission. You don't bring a knife to a gun fight. I can tell I work in a lot of police cars, and many of them are equipped with assault rifles, loaded with 30 round clips and ready to go. Some departments, particularly affluent suburban small towns I work in, don't have them, likely because crime is low as is the threat, and when the police department requests that in their funding, it's often denied by the town elders because having assault rifles in the squad cars "would look bad". That is, until that first mass shooting then you can bet there will be an outcry to adequately equip their police force.

We don't know the make up of the "ad hoc" group was as far as what the Border Patrol/ICE members were trained in as well as the untrained recruited officers, and what they were armed with. All we know right now is they were from a variety of departments.

The description of the Border/ICE officers sent to assist makes me think that not a general call for assistance was sent out but a specific inter-agency request for their SWAT team. Not all officers are SWAT qualified, but they may have enlisted all those SWAT qualified who were on duty at the time or possibly all Border Patrol agents are required to have special training.

I'm inclined to agree with gregl's comments above.

[beeatnik]

The fundamental question: why does a town with a population of 16K need an independent police force dedicated to the school district? If the school is under threats so great that a separate, independent police force is necessary to “ensure” student safety, then the larger problems of society in general and that community in particular have been ignored or even worse, enabled.

Greg

In one news report, the mom who rescued her kids is being interviewed in a field. Farm workers are seen behind her. Uvalde reminds me of the small Central California town where I lived as a kid. Similar demographics, similar paternalism.

From the Mexican Revolution in 1910, immigrant labor force cleared large tracts of land and digging ditches, as irrigation spread throughout the county. The Uvalde and Northern Railway to Camp Wood, the Asphalt Beltway Railway in 1921, and the expansion of the asphalt mines in far southwestern Uvalde County at Blewett and Dabney were completed with the help of Mexican labor. By 1960 Mexican Americans made up one half of Uvalde County's 16,015 population. Seasonal migrant workers continued to move to Uvalde and Sabinal during the 1960s

Efforts to gain civil rights for Hispanics in Uvalde County began with the establishment of the Tomas Valle Post of the American Legion. County churches maintained segregated places of worship until an integrated Catholic church emerged in Uvalde in 1965.

The Mexican American Youth Organization formed in Uvalde City in 1968 and eventually led to a 6-week walkout by more than 600 Mexican-American students an on April 14, 1970.[15][16] The Texas Rangers and the Texas Department of Public Safety responded to requests by the school board to help control the volatile situation. Senator Walter F. Mondale, chairman of the United States Senate Committee on Equal Educational Opportunity, went to Uvalde on July 30, 1970, and criticized city officials in an interview published in the Uvalde Leader News. [17]

A 1970 class action lawsuit was filed by Genoveva Morales on behalf of her children against the Uvalde Consolidated Independent School District.[18]

In 1975, the United States Court of Appeals for the Fifth Circuit found that Uvalde C.I.S.D. in Texas had failed to desegregate its school system in violation of the Fourteenth Amendment to the United States Constitution and Title VI of the Civil Rights Act of 1964. In 1976, the Court ordered Uvalde C.I.S.D. to comply. In 2007, Uvalde C.I.S.D. sought to dismiss the desegregation order. The Mexican American Legal Defense and Education Fund (MALDEF) opposed. On September 15, 2008, a settlement was reached.[19][20][21]

By 1975, only six Mexican Americans had served in public office in the county and none in leading roles. Since then several Mexican Americans[22] have served as county commissioners and in other county and local positions.

As for the policing, low income communities with Latinx super-majorities and legacy white administration/leadership tend to devote disproportionate resources to policing as the shifting demographics distort perceptions of crime and criminality. Combine that with a migrant labor force, geographic proximity to the border with the "threat" of "illegal" immigration and the psychological proximity to narcotraffico the result is a low SES population living in an institutionalized state.

Most importantly, the PD personnel in these towns is also in transition. From white, conservative, paternalistic (racist), fully integrated in Texas gun/hunting culture to becoming entirely Latinx (younger and "less trained") in half a generation.

[Will Neide]

No, I was being serious. What made you think otherwise?

Because it's kind of ridiculous to think anyone would believe the only way to enter through a locked door is with a key.

[Will Neide]

Because a hand gun against an AR-15 is the definition of being outmatched and sending a cop armed with a Glock against a shooter with an AR-15 with a 30 round clip is a suicide mission. You don't bring a knife to a gun fight. I can tell I work in a lot of police cars, and many of them are equipped with assault rifles, loaded with 30 round clips and ready to go. Some departments, particularly affluent suburban small towns I work in, don't have them, likely because crime is low as is the threat, and when the police department requests that in their funding, it's often denied by the town elders because having assault rifles in the squad cars "would look bad". That is, until that first mass shooting then you can bet there will be an outcry to adequately equip their police force.

We don't know the make up of the "ad hoc" group was as far as what the Border Patrol/ICE members were trained in as well as the untrained recruited officers, and what they were armed with. All we know right now is they were from a variety of departments.

The description of the Border/ICE officers sent to assist makes me think that not a general call for assistance was sent out but a specific inter-agency request for their SWAT team. Not all officers are SWAT qualified, but they may have enlisted all those SWAT qualified who were on duty at the time or possibly all Border Patrol agents are required to have special training.

I'm inclined to agree with gregl's comments above.

This is all kinds of frustrating.

1) This shouldn't be an arms race. 18 year olds, and I'd argue anyone untrained, shouldn't be able to get their hands on something with the capability of taking lives with such ease and on a broad scale.
2) But we both agree that AR style weapons are capable of a lot of devastation.
3) Outmatched or not, there was reportedly a group of officers available. Better to do something than to sit on your butt. "To serve and protect....unless the odds are not favorable for us."
4) As a parent.....I'm going in.

[fastupslowdown]

This is all kinds of frustrating.

1) This shouldn't be an arms race. 18 year olds, and I'd argue anyone untrained, shouldn't be able to get their hands on something with the capability of taking lives with such ease and on a broad scale.
2) But we both agree that AR style weapons are capable of a lot of devastation.
3) Outmatched or not, there was reportedly a group of officers available. Better to do something than to sit on your butt. "To serve and protect....unless the odds are not favorable for us."
4) As a parent.....I'm going in.

In Massachusetts if you want to carry a gun you are required to obtain a license and go through a training course. Nobody gets to drive a car without a license. A gun is far more deadly. I get the will isn't there to ban guns and we have this thing called 2nd amendment but the will should be there to do common sense things, but of course not -Mike G

[beeatnik]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opini...-poverty-guns/

Neil Meyer, a retired lawyer, is a fifth-generation Texan. He now lives in Bethesda.

I was born in Uvalde, Tex., lived there recently and love its complex history and people. Like most, I’ve been struggling under the weight of grief to understand the violence that left 19 children, two teachers and a young killer dead last week. But I’m not surprised.

First, you would be challenged to find a more heavily armed place in the United States than Uvalde. It’s a town where the love of guns overwhelms any notion of common-sense regulations, and the minority White ruling class places its right-wing Republican ideology above the safety of its most vulnerable citizens — its impoverished and its children, most of whom are Hispanic.

I'll read beyond the 2nd paragraph at some point....

[suspectdevice]

Surreal to think that the same Bortac unit that stormed the classroom, 2 years ago likely would have been too busy downtown Portland and Seattle shooting pepper balls at protesters and abducting people off the streets.

What a weird job that must be.

[j44ke]

Surreal to think that the same Bortac unit that stormed the classroom, 2 years ago likely would have been too busy downtown Portland and Seattle shooting pepper balls at protesters and abducting people off the streets.

What a weird job that must be.

The Border Patrol officers who killed the shooter were in Portland and Seattle 2 years ago? How do you know this?

[suspectdevice]

The Border Patrol officers who killed the shooter were in Portland and Seattle 2 years ago? How do you know this?

There are only so many Border Tactical Units- and DHS moved them all into the cities to please the fuhrer a few summers ago.
Just like it was dept of prisons tactical squad that cleared lafayette square for that photo op, the corrosive effect of fascism on civil society is readily apparent. Not just norms are collapsing, but also the mission creep can’t be good for morale.

There is a great NYT podcast from a few weeks ago on Operation Lonestar- tx national guardsmen are deployed to that area en masse right now, for optics, but essentially against the sworn oaths of those guardsmen- thousands of texans who signed up to serve have been at the border for months now, losing their civilian jobs and committing suicide in staggering numbers.

Too many guns are just the tip of the problem we have maintaining decency in this country.

[j44ke]

There are only so many Border Tactical Units- and DHS moved them all into the cities to please the fuhrer a few summers ago.
Just like it was dept of prisons tactical squad that cleared lafayette square for that photo op, the corrosive effect of fascism on civil society is readily apparent. Not just norms are collapsing, but also the mission creep can’t be good for morale.

There is a great NYT podcast from a few weeks ago on Operation Lonestar- tx national guardsmen are deployed to that area en masse right now, for optics, but essentially against the sworn oaths of those guardsmen- thousands of texans who signed up to serve have been at the border for months now, losing their civilian jobs and committing suicide in staggering numbers.

Too many guns are just the tip of the problem we have maintaining decency in this country.

I see. So you don't know that these particular Border Patrol officers were in Portland and Seattle. Just a juxtaposition to underline a trend.

[bigbill]

The fundamental question: why does a town with a population of 16K need an independent police force dedicated to the school district? If the school is under threats so great that a separate, independent police force is necessary to “ensure” student safety, then the larger problems of society in general and that community in particular have been ignored or even worse, enabled.

Greg

When I lived in NE Texas, the county had five school districts and the two largest had their own police departments. My son and others were harassed by student who was eventually caught with a large knife and a list of kids to kill, my son being at the top. He was arrested and given a psychological exam and place in an alternative school (a few hundred miles away) under constant observation. Fast forward a year and my son receives a cell phone call from that person, he was using someone else's phone that had my son's phone number. The caller said he had a gun and was coming to kill my son and his friends. I called the police and chambered a round. The police took the report then called the school district police chief who arrested the kid again, but this time the county judge issued an emergency committal order and the kid was taken to a mental health facility.

I'm not all in on shootings being a mental health issue, but in this case, a school district police force knew the issues and was ready to act.

[bcm119]

...

I think that's what the defunding argument asks for. Putting the latest high tech weapon in the hands of someone who doesn't have training, can't improvise strategically in an emergency and doesn't have the kind of guts it takes to be a cop is an immeasurable waste of money and creates situations where escalation is inevitable and people get killed. In my mind, the gun comes last. The other three are more important. Find good people, train the heck out of them in all facets of their work, and compensate them at a level that recognizes the dangers and difficulties of the job - and their skills at achieving humane outcomes.

That's an extremely generous interpretation of what 'defund the police' was about. The original movement didn't have nearly the level of logic and nuance that you're describing here, at least not until republicans started effectively using it to win elections.

[j44ke]

That's an extremely generous interpretation of what 'defund the police' was about. The original movement didn't have nearly the level of logic and nuance that you're describing here, at least not until republicans started effectively using it to win elections.

Yes, there were obviously a lot of demands, but the rational underlayment was for smaller, smarter, better trained police forces with budgets devoted to the complexities of humane public safety and not to the infinite procurement of ever more deadly weaponry, armored vehicles and implements of violent suppression.

[thollandpe]

That's an extremely generous interpretation of what 'defund the police' was about. The original movement didn't have nearly the level of logic and nuance that you're describing here, at least not until republicans started effectively using it to win elections.

I don’t agree. Here’s a video from two years ago that says cutting the police budget by just 5% could double the funding for public health in some cities.

What Defunding the Police Really Means — Black Lives Matter

• Instead of funding armed officers in schools, invest in teachers and counselors.
• Instead of criminalizing mental illness, invest in mental health and restorative services.
• Instead of buying military weapons for use on our citizens, invest in community-led programs to reduce harm.

“It’s time to claim healthy, safe futures for our children.”

The Republicans built a straw man. We shouldn’t prop it up.

[beeatnik]

Unions, man.

Apologies if I’ve already shared this tale on VS. About 5 years ago, my tenant called me in a near panic because there was a late middle aged male masturbating on the embankment above my property, 15 feet from the front door. She called 911 and an hour had elapsed with no response from the LAPD. I don’t know how to handle (no pun intended) a potential sex offender so I asked her to call again or to contact her friend who was the councilman for the district. Thirty min and still crickets. So, I dialed a buddy and we drove over (10 min). On the way, I called the direct LAPD line for the division. I reported a late 50s male, naked and masturbating a few blocks from my property and a few hundred feet from the elementary school . I fibbed that he had exposed himself to a child and walked towards the embankment. When my friend and I arrived, the guy (possibly a resident of an encampment 500 ft away adjacent to “The 5,”) was on his back, completely naked and vigorously stroking his flaccidness. LAPD arrived 2 min later. The officers stepped out of the vehicle and yelled, “HEY! HEY! Get up.” The gentleman pulled up his crusty jeans and walked into the freeway. Naive me, I expected more of a, um, transaction but the pressing question. “What took you guys 2 hours?” “We only have two cars on patrol for the entire division and we were 10 miles away. OK, bye” Two cars, four officers on a weekday afternoon in a division which serves about 250k residents. Where were the other 500 officers from the division? Mostly on disability, mostly living in Arizona. Defund the police, sure.

Edit: this community is 95% “Hispanic”

[COVRTDESIGN]

Unions, man.

Apologies if I’ve already shared this tale on VS. About 5 years ago, my tenant called me in a near panic because there was a late middle aged male masturbating on the embankment above my property, 15 feet from the front door. She called 911 and an hour had elapsed with no response from the LAPD. I don’t know how to handle (no pun intended) a potential sex offender so I asked her to call again or to contact her friend who was the councilman for the district. Thirty min and still crickets. So, I dialed a buddy and we drove over (10 min). On the way, I called the direct LAPD line for the district. I reported a late 50s male naked and masturbating a few blocks from my property and 100 feet from the nearby elementary school . I said he had exposed himself to a child and walked towards the embankment. When my friend and I arrived, the guy (possibly a resident of an encampment 500 ft away adjacent to “The 5,”) was on his back, completely naked and vigorously stroking his flaccidness. LAPD arrived 2 min later. The officers stepped out of the vehicle and yelled, “HEY! HEY! Get up.” The gentleman pulled up his crusty jeans and walked into the freeway. Naive me, I expected more of a, um, transaction but the pressing question. “What took you guys 2 hours?” “We only have two cars on patrol for the entire division and we were 10 miles away. OK, bye” Two cars, four officers on a weekday afternoon in a division which serves about 250k residents. Where were the other 500 officers from the division? Mostly on disability, mostly living in Arizona. Defund the police, sure.

Edit: this community is 95% “Hispanic”

You do understand that the people that actually want the defund actions are ones that understand that we aren't asking for money and man power being taken away but rather MVRAAP's that cost over $250,000ea, 6 shot grenade launchers, and all other over the top military equipment that I barely saw used in Iraq and Afghanistan. Officers do not need to be maxed out in $150,000 riot gear per officer, and using vehicles that aren't even able to drive on most town and city streets, just because they have a massive budget that needs to be spent ever year or they lose it.

I am all for long rifles in every car, especially now a days, proper funding for officers to include more active shooter drills and CQB style tactics, better training for mental health and DV scenarios, as well as multiple improvements in training, vehicles, 911 operators, body armor, etc.

Denver is the exact same as your situation mentioned, but if it involves a bike, motorcycle/scooter, a car break in, or a homeless person situation that isn't like threatening, you will not see an officer for at least a day if not ever.

[beeatnik]

^I think the math is tricky and for major departments in Coastal cities the defunding began years ago. All the money goes to the salaries and pensions of personnel who essentially retired.