Middle east.

[colker]

JCPOA is a perfect example of an imperfect real-world negotiated agreement in which both sides got something they really wanted, but neither side got everything they wanted.

So, what HorsCat said.

The Trump administration broke it because it wasn't perfect. What has followed has been an unmitigated disaster for peace in the Mideast, and has brought loss upon loss to the United States.

The only real winner is Russia, who's seeing their influence grow with their clients Iran and Syria.

And I'm still waiting for the administration's defenders to explain how this is "better".

This^^^^^^

[jclay]

We have been paying all along, but just the minimum payment like most dumb ass Americans with credit card debt.

Oh, point taken but we haven't gotten the big check yet, just the little ones for the appetizers, the tapas as cruise around town...the nice part of it, of course.

I wonder what the true cost of a gallon of gasoline is, you know including the military and other costs we're incurring in support of oil supply. At a time when we should be making long term changes to accommodate the eventual loss of oil as a plentiful commodity, climate change, destruction of the rest of the natural world, that general sort of thing, we're just doubling down on the same old same old. And the problem is that once enough peeps figure it out to demand change it will surely be too late. When the cold temp reservoirs on the heat engine we call Earth start warming, never mind achieving phase change temps (which they obviously are in many areas) we are in deep, deep shit. I know someone, an economist actually, who has posited that we'll find a way to re-freeze'em. I suppose we could fire off some nukes, create a nuclear winter and accomplish it but....probably not a great idea.

I've said it before and nothing has happened to make me question it: It's like we're on the Titanic, drunk, partying, fat, dumb and happy, with a few bar fights here and there, as the skipper pushes the power levers up and heads into the ice field, oblivious to the few who are screaming that it's a real bad idea. It's painfully obvious.

[marley]

Oh, point taken but we haven't gotten the big check yet, just the little ones for the appetizers, the tapas as cruise around town...the nice part of it, of course.

I know someone, an economist actually, who has posited that we'll find a way to re-freeze'em. I suppose we could fire off some nukes, create a nuclear winter and accomplish it but....probably not a great idea.

Your economist friend is scary - I am assuming they are a "Forever Trumper, Ladies for Trump, Latino for Trump, Racist for Trump, Bubba for Trump etc...". I keep peppering my economist friend for advice and he is scratching his head as nothing is making sense. His response well at least we are making money in the market which he advised to pull out now and sit on the cash to re-invest when the shit hits the fan, but then again he told me this 6 months ago.

Move North to save on air conditioning cost and start investing in Soylent Green as this will be the only food available.....I never knew how much I liked people until I started eating them.

[mzilliox]

Imagine ANY of this happening over here. Say some bully superpower half a world away invades Mexico for their agave, installs a puppet government, kills hundreds of thousands and sets up military bases, telling us in no uncertain terms to "behave, or else". This bully nation overthrew our elected leader in the 50s and installed a vicious dictator, which we then overthrew. Sadly, the bible-thumpers in our country took over and established Christian sharia, but that's OUR issue to work out.

Now imagine one of our top generals goes to Mexico City to deliver our response to a peace overture from one of the bully's allies in the region that keeps threatening us. And.... the bully nation assassinates our general. How would we behave?

Americans are shit at empathy. We have no right to be there. That oil is their oil, not ours. That land is their land, not ours. Come to think of it, if our greedy executive class weren't in charge of policy, maybe we'd have weaned ourselves off of fossil fuels, and none of this would have happened. No trillion$ blown making more enemies. Instead all we get is "how ya gonna pay for that?" aimed at ANYTHING to build up our people.

Well said sir! Lots of stupid chest thumping, but this is the reality we find ourselves in. If you all haven't read the linked post cold war article, just do yourself a favor and read it. to think some would pretend there is any moral justification for this crap by Mansplaining blahbedy blah blah. carry on. boys and their wars...

[j44ke]

Who blew up the plane?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world...fac_story.html

[bcm119]

It's surprising that so many people seem to know what's going on over there to the extent that they can predict the outcome of, or at least evaluate the wisdom of, the assassination of Soleimani. Lots of variables and surely we only are privy to some of them.

[Dallas Tex]

It's surprising that so many people seem to know what's going on over there to the extent that they can predict the outcome of, or at least evaluate the wisdom of, the assassination of Soleimani. Lots of variables and surely we only are privy to some of them.

Who the hell do you think that you are to inject reality into our partisan bickering ?!

[theflashunc]

It's surprising that so many people seem to know what's going on over there to the extent that they can predict the outcome of, or at least evaluate the wisdom of, the assassination of Soleimani. Lots of variables and surely we only are privy to some of them.

Sure, but there is plenty of cause for concern when:

1) This administration lies about literally everything and the President has shown a penchant for impulsive decision making.

2) The last time we killed the military leader of another country was WWII.

It's a concerning Rubicon we've crossed that deserves a greater explanation than "trust us" from our public servants.

[jerk]

It's surprising that so many people seem to know what's going on over there to the extent that they can predict the outcome of, or at least evaluate the wisdom of, the assassination of Soleimani. Lots of variables and surely we only are privy to some of them.

American Foreign policy isn't something mysterious. Generally it's been fairly predictable since the end of the second world war. Certainly- post 9/11 the policy has been far more interventionist especially in the mideast but culturally literate people have a pretty good idea of what's going on over there.

when the news first came out that Trump had ordered the murder of a member of a United Nation's charter member's military- there was talk that Trump would start a war or that that was his goal. I wrote the following and said so much on an interview that day with a middle eastern news source. I spoke seriously and with much more polish for the interview of course- but the gist of what I said before


"he's a chicken hawk who just likes to act like a tough guy and talk a big game and honestly does not understand that his words and his occasional military strikes have consequences. i don't think he'll start a war- he's scared of war because i honestly think he is petrified of anything that requires rigor or attention- and i'm certain th"at the brass has made it abundently clear to him how much more he'd actually have to "work" were the country at war. instead, he'll pull back and declare himself the winner. my guess is that we end up making a bunch of insane concessions to Iran in order to defuse this thing and they end up essentially getting Iraq as a client state- Syria's defacto situation is recognized as legitimate, the Kurds are abandoned, and Trump pulls everything out of the Mideast. He then proclaims victory- that he's lived up to his campaign promises to end the wars- etc. etc. He's going to pull the "best dealmaker" card- talk about how he's open to talking with Iranian leadership etc. etc. basically the same stuff he did with the DPRK. Talk fire and brimstone- make a giant mess- so he can get credit for cleaning it up.

America retreats into moronic isolationism while countries with grown ups in charge actually act in their own national interests.

Here's the thing- if you're going to do this bullshit- why do you admit you did it? it makes no sense. you let Bibi take credit for it. He kills legitimate leaders all the time- and what's Iran going to do? Burn more Israeli flags? No. None of this makes any sense. Iran is going to have the sympathy of the world and especially of the Arab world (for once) for standing up to America and selflessly helping the Syrian and Iraqi people in their three front war against Wahabbi Terrorism, American Terrorism, and Kurdish Terrorism."

[jerk]

This is so absurd. We just murdered a national hero, a founding father, a five star general, and a member of sovereign nation's government.

The only equivalent I can think of- would be if LBJ had decided to murder General Giap during the Vietnam war....except in that case we were engaged in an armed conflict with that nation....and we didn't do it because it was insane, unethical, illegal, would have had huge repercussions, and was quite simply not in our nation's character.

I have no idea what has happened to my country. We literally murder foreign leaders now. This wasn't some war lord with a toyota tacoma with an aa gun in the bed- this was the leader of a branch of UN member's armed forces. This is Iran murdering Colin Powell- if Colin Powell was 1000 times more revered and still actively engaged in a war on Daesh, Al-Qaeda, and Al-Nusra.

This was an individual we should have been secretly de-escalating with, developing a rapport with, and working with on repairing Iranian-US relations and solving the issues in Syria, Lebanon, and Iraq. The Iraqis are now saying that the late general was in Iraq for diplomatic talks with the Saudis facilitated and pushed for by the US State Department. This is either the most malicious example of foreign policy in American history- or the most inept example of it.....or maybe both. WE/ve known for a long time that the DoD and State have VERY different visions of how to accomplish the same goals in the Mideast- but at least they agree on the goals. Trump seemingly has no long term agenda or interest in the region beyond using it to reflect positively on himself. If an action in the Mideast allows him to come across as a strong, handsome, tough guy he'll use military force. If an action in the middle east lets him come across as a great "deal" maker- he'll go for that.

Like it or not- Iran is a force in the middle east with legitimate interests. It's responsible for the end of the Iraqi civil war and the defeat of the Islamic State in Syria and Iraq- it was an obvious partner in finding peaceful solutions in Afghanistan- where like in Iraq- we're ostensibly on the same side or at least have been in the past.

I've also long believed the late general was the key to eventual peace between Israel and Iran. He was the main architect on the Iranian side of the co-operation between the State of Israel and the Islamic Republic throughout the 1980s. While the young revolution was struggling for its life as an emerging secular militarist Iraq sought to destroy it- and Islamic zeal and revolutionary hubris was causing the military, medical, and industrial infrastructure to literally decay and rot - the General secretly reached out to his friends in the Israeli military and intelligence community and got the technical and financial help the country needed to keep Iraq at bay. Neither side will ever admit it- but the only reason the Iranian revolution survived is because of Israeli assistance.

He also was instrumental in transitioning Hezbollah from a militia with the sole purpose of engaging in asymetric warfare/terrorism against Israel into a political party and governing and social structure entity.

Anyway- the guy was fairly moderate- a brilliant general by all accounts- and loved by virtually every Iranian and most Shi'ites in general and we murdered him.
Honestly the guy could have been slightly to the right of Adolf Hitler and subsisted solely by eating babies- and it still would have made no sense to murder him. Trump's bellicose isolationism furthers no one's interest other than Trump's interest in being the center of attention of the world- but here we are murdering foreign leaders and angering a huge population for literally no benefit.

The only person in the world who would have benefitted from this guy's murder- was murdered by us a few months before- the late "leader" of the Islamic State. With the Islamic State virtually destroyed- murdering the guy who did much of the destroying- not only on the battlefield but also through his ability to create coalitions and work with disparate groups with very different agendas- will most likely strengthen Sunni extremism.

I'm scared, embarrassed, and aghast at my country's actions. We don't do this. We just don't. I can't believe that our generals let this happen. I can't believe that congress hasn't passed a resolution pulling funding for ANYTHING Trump does internationally without first consulting congress. It would be legal and easy to keep him from acting like this....let him squak about turning countries into parking lots- but don't let him do this shit.....what is wrong with my country????

[Scott G.]

[snip]

The only person in the world who would have benefitted from this guy's murder- [snip]

Not quite, there is another person....

Days After Suleimani Killing, Trump Campaign Promotes It on Facebook - The New York Times

[bcm119]

Sure, but there is plenty of cause for concern when:

1) This administration lies about literally everything and the President has shown a penchant for impulsive decision making.

2) The last time we killed the military leader of another country was WWII.

It's a concerning Rubicon we've crossed that deserves a greater explanation than "trust us" from our public servants.

Agree that there is plenty of cause for concern. I am only questioning the precision of folks' speculation on the chain of events this event will set in motion, and the resulting conviction of their opinions. I'm no fan of Trump either.

[bigbill]

Who blew up the plane?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world...fac_story.html

I'm a little curious about that too. Video shows a burning plane in a glide path towards a field but no communication from the pilots. That has all the earmarks of a surface to air missile that detonated near the front of the aircraft depressurizing the cabin and cockpit and destroying an engine that burst into flames. Pure wild ass speculation here, but there was a lot of chatter coming out of Iran on military channels leading up to the missile launch, could an anti-aircraft battery been a little quick on the draw? Iran doesn't want the black boxes to be examined, I wonder why?

[j44ke]

I'm a little curious about that too. Video shows a burning plane in a glide path towards a field but no communication from the pilots. That has all the earmarks of a surface to air missile that detonated near the front of the aircraft depressurizing the cabin and cockpit and destroying an engine that burst into flames. Pure wild ass speculation here, but there was a lot of chatter coming out of Iran on military channels leading up to the missile launch, could an anti-aircraft battery been a little quick on the draw? Iran doesn't want the black boxes to be examined, I wonder why?

That was my thought - jittery trigger finger.

[Corso]

.....what is wrong with my country????

Nothing. Nothing at all is wrong with our country, except those who are determined to denounce the President for every single thing he does.

I don't recall any outrage among Salonistas over this:

"the reporting of political scientist Micah Zenko, who in 2017 reported for the non-profit research organization Council on Foreign Relations that “The 542 drone strikes that Obama authorized killed an estimated 3,797 people, including 324 civilians.” Zenko’s figures are based on U.S. military press releases and news reports."

But Obama's "murders" must have been justified, because he was the true "chosen one".

Jerk appears to be the only one outside of Iran defending this guy:

Why Kill Soleimani Now? - The Atlantic


Yeah, the US is always the "bad guy". I'll admit, this hit does look pretty odd in the year 2020, but how many Americans has this guy indirectly killed? Even if it was a SINGLE American, well, enjoy your life hell general.

I'd like to see the US stop ALL foreign aid for a single year, and use the money to improve OUR country's education, infrastructure, job training, etc etc. Let the rest of the world pick up the tab.

>>In fiscal year 2017 (October 1st, 2016 to September 30th, 2017), the U.S. government allocated the following amounts for aid:

Total economic and military assistance: $49.87 billion.

Total military assistance: $14.77 billion.

Total economic assistance: $35.10 billion, of which USAID Implemented: $20.55 billion.<<

Also---

Does anyone really believe Trump did this totally on his own without the intelligence community telling him this was a good thing?

As Biden would say "C'mon man!"

[Blue Jays]

"...As a part of the JCPOA billions of dollars in frozen Iranian assets were released to Iran.
The United States also repaid Iran for pre-revolution payments made for US military contracts that, post-revolution, were not fulfilled. Your characterization is not fair or accurate..."

President Obama and Secretary of State John Kerry were particularly notable for their poor negotiation.
Iran's claims were baseless in consideration of their longtime support of violent and extreme terrorism.

Try paying your AMEX bill a day late and the company will very likely slap a fee on the account.
Same goes for Iran. Assets should be frozen forever. Pallets of cash should never have been sent.

The likelihood of me feeling sorry for murderous jihadists crying about their finances is miniscule.
Iran is obviously seeing the new reality that they are dealing with a POTUS who is not a pushover.

[theflashunc]

Nothing. Nothing at all is wrong with our country, except those who are determined to denounce the President for every single thing he does.

I don't recall any outrage among Salonistas over this:

"the reporting of political scientist Micah Zenko, who in 2017 reported for the non-profit research organization Council on Foreign Relations that “The 542 drone strikes that Obama authorized killed an estimated 3,797 people, including 324 civilians.” Zenko’s figures are based on U.S. military press releases and news reports."

But Obama's "murders" must have been justified, because he was the true "chosen one".

Jerk appears to be the only one outside of Iran defending this guy:

Why Kill Soleimani Now? - The Atlantic


Yeah, the US is always the "bad guy". I'll admit, this hit does look pretty odd in the year 2020, but how many Americans has this guy indirectly killed? Even if it was a SINGLE American, well, enjoy your life hell general.

I'd like to see the US stop ALL foreign aid for a single year, and use the money to improve OUR country's education, infrastructure, job training, etc etc. Let the rest of the world pick up the tab.

>>In fiscal year 2017 (October 1st, 2016 to September 30th, 2017), the U.S. government allocated the following amounts for aid:

Total economic and military assistance: $49.87 billion.

Total military assistance: $14.77 billion.

Total economic assistance: $35.10 billion, of which USAID Implemented: $20.55 billion.<<

Also---

Does anyone really believe Trump did this totally on his own without the intelligence community telling him this was a good thing?

As Biden would say "C'mon man!"

I don't recall anyone here endorsing the drone program under Bush and Obama as a good thing. It was a terrible thing then especially when American citizens were killed extrajudicially. This is some excellent whataboutism though.

So Trump is now listening to the same intelligence community he's spent 3 years denouncing because they demonstrated pretty clearly Russian assets worked to assist in his election in 2016? And Trump is now asking all of us to rely on the same intelligence community work the denounced during the 2016 campaign for their work in the run-up to the Iraq War?

As Biden would say "C'mon man!"

It feels more than a little bit like the guy with poor impulse control, little knowledge about the issues at play (remember he doesn't like briefing books and, uh, words on a page), and no clear policy worldview other than what he can do in the moment that serves his own interests did this with little consideration for the knock on effects.

Are you concerned about the suspension of missions against ISIS? The additional troops that are being sent to the region that's supposedly safer? The nearly unprecedented, and oddly throwaway, request from the President to ask NATO to get involved?

If someone gets denounced for every single thing they do, maybe consider they might just be historically bad at their job.

[mjbabcock]

but how many Americans has this guy indirectly killed? Even if it was a SINGLE American, well, enjoy your life hell general.

Please just pause for a moment and consider this logic. You are saying that the indirect association with the death of a citizen is grounds for assassination, yet earlier in this narrative we talked about the 500,000 Iraqis killed under Clinton and 1,000,000 killed under Bush. And you cite the 3,000 killed under Obama. Your logic puts these leaders on a level footing with Iranian leaders...that is if you equate an American life as equal to the life of a non-American.

The reality is that we are talking about military combatants. There is a lot of blood on all of our collective hands. That said, there are norms that we abide by so that our actions are defensible, while nations like Iran are not. We just stooped to their level, then boasted about it. We alienated ourselves, and strained relationships that are already under pressure. Shit, I wouldn’t be surprised if a whole host of nations decided to tell us to fuck off, and went and normalized relations with Iran, defying our economic sanctions.

Our president is an idiot, and his enablers are complicit.

[mjbabcock]

As for the $50 billion in military aid, I’m fairly certain most of that flows back to defense industries in the United States. It’s not like we cut countries a check and they go buy Russian guns. We subsidize the patronage of our own corporations.

[Corso]

I don't recall anyone here endorsing the drone program under Bush and Obama as a good thing. It was a terrible thing then especially when American citizens were killed extrajudicially. This is some excellent whataboutism though.

No one condoned it, but no one bothered to criticize it here either, did they? I'll answer: NO.

Obama kills hundreds of people= crickets. Trump kills 5 people=8 pages (so far) of predominatly negative rants and name calling.

That's my point. And my example was under Obama's watch, don't drag Bush into it. Whataboutism from you? Or is there a different clever term for what you just did?

So dismiss any comparison of the left's double standards claim whataboutism if you will, it's great way to dismiss the facts.

He's done such a "bad job", he's going to run away with the election, impeachment BS or not.

Please bear in mind this forum is not a representation of the Nation. If it were, Hillary would be the one ordering drone strikes, and this thread would not exist, as none here would bother to complain about it.

Sorry for the Hillary-ism.