The Vaccine Thread

[bigbill]

sorry to hear this--does that mean the current outbreak at that nursing home is due to a staff transmitting it, or visitors? The continued (esp. asymptomatic transmission), even after vaccination makes it hard to limit the virus from the vulnerable without lots of testing, which doesn't seem to be occurring here as it is elsewhere in the developed world.

The county is a hotspot in the state so it's likely a staff member (they're all vaccinated) brought it while asymptomatic. I'm not sure what can be done for older folks who have breakthrough cases that might or might not kill them. My MIL is a physically strong 74-year-old six-foot-tall woman, it's her mind that doesn't work. She otherwise has no co-morbidities. I bet she survives. In the county where I live, the deaths are dropping off and shifting back to the older age groups affected a year ago. The younger people are getting fewer infections and fatalities. It's not necessarily vaccinations or masks, we still have a low vaccination rate and almost no mask-wearing outside of work where most businesses require it.

As far as the OP from 79 pages ago, I got the Moderna back in March and April. I'm getting my flu shot a week from tomorrow. I'm conflicted about the boosters, should we be giving the general public booster shots when portions of the world have single digit vaccination rates? Perhaps just the elderly and vulnerable. If we as a nation have the capacity to produce enough for booster shots, would it not be a better investment to make sure a larger portion of the world is vaccinated first?

[spopepro]

As far as the OP from 79 pages ago, I got the Moderna back in March and April. I'm getting my flu shot a week from tomorrow. I'm conflicted about the boosters, should we be giving the general public booster shots when portions of the world have single digit vaccination rates? Perhaps just the elderly and vulnerable. If we as a nation have the capacity to produce enough for booster shots, would it not be a better investment to make sure a larger portion of the world is vaccinated first?

This is a tough one. I think often about M. Scott Peck’s book People of the Lie, which is a deeply flawed and problematic book, but has an outstanding section contrasting group and individual morality, ultimately laying significant blame at the feet of narrow specialization.

Pfizer just tests and submits results, it’s not their job to determine distribution. The FDA reviews the data for efficacy and safety, they don’t determine distribution. The CDC takes the recommendation and the data landscape of the USA and determines if approval would help, they don’t determine distribution outside of the US. County health orgs and multi county service groups get their allocation and need to use it, they can’t send it somewhere else. And you… you can choose not to and waste the dose that has been allocated to you or you could take it.

At no point does anyone have the authority to make the call for the benefit of humanity. Peck would label that “evil”, I’m not sure I’d use those words. But it shouldn’t be this way.

[vertical_doug]

The county is a hotspot in the state so it's likely a staff member (they're all vaccinated) brought it while asymptomatic. I'm not sure what can be done for older folks who have breakthrough cases that might or might not kill them. My MIL is a physically strong 74-year-old six-foot-tall woman, it's her mind that doesn't work. She otherwise has no co-morbidities. I bet she survives. In the county where I live, the deaths are dropping off and shifting back to the older age groups affected a year ago. The younger people are getting fewer infections and fatalities. It's not necessarily vaccinations or masks, we still have a low vaccination rate and almost no mask-wearing outside of work where most businesses require it.

As far as the OP from 79 pages ago, I got the Moderna back in March and April. I'm getting my flu shot a week from tomorrow. I'm conflicted about the boosters, should we be giving the general public booster shots when portions of the world have single digit vaccination rates? Perhaps just the elderly and vulnerable. If we as a nation have the capacity to produce enough for booster shots, would it not be a better investment to make sure a larger portion of the world is vaccinated first?

Considering Wyoming has the third lowest vaccination rate in the US, I'd be skeptical of the 100% vaccination claim. If they say, they terminated those who refused, then I'd believe.

But how the virus was transmitted to the care home is not really important, we can just all hope that science is right, and the vaccinated have a better chance.

As for your question on booster shots, I think the nation should distribute to our at risk population first.

If we want to be stewards for the world, I think giving more food aid and basic medical care to the poor would save more lives. The only reason to vaccinate the world is not from altruism, it is because we are afraid of a new mutation.
Just stick with the boosters.

[bigbill]

Considering Wyoming has the third lowest vaccination rate in the US, I'd be skeptical of the 100% vaccination claim. If they say, they terminated those who refused, then I'd believe.

But how the virus was transmitted to the care home is not really important, we can just all hope that science is right, and the vaccinated have a better chance.

As for your question on booster shots, I think the nation should distribute to our at risk population first.

If we want to be stewards for the world, I think giving more food aid and basic medical care to the poor would save more lives. The only reason to vaccinate the world is not from altruism, it is because we are afraid of a new mutation.
Just stick with the boosters.

My MIL has been transferred to hospice care. My wife is flying up with her aunt (mom's sister) to be there. My wife's sister is in the area but since she's unvaccinated, she's not allowed inside the nursing home. My FIL is in the area but same thing, he's not vaccinated. They've lost 16 patients so far to Covid. My MIL's death will likely be attributed to Covid, but with her advanced Parkinson's, her present condition could be unrelated.

[jimcav]

Sorry to hear of this turn Bill, but at least your wife can be there. My best friend lost his dad in a similar situation (advanced Alzheimer's), but the family wasn't able to be there. I should have phrased my earlier question on the manner of transmission differently--I was curious as to how the facility managed transmission precautions, and should have just asked more directly about that. I wish your wife (and you) strength for this process.

[zachateseverything]

My MIL has been transferred to hospice care. My wife is flying up with her aunt (mom's sister) to be there. My wife's sister is in the area but since she's unvaccinated, she's not allowed inside the nursing home. My FIL is in the area but same thing, he's not vaccinated. They've lost 16 patients so far to Covid. My MIL's death will likely be attributed to Covid, but with her advanced Parkinson's, her present condition could be unrelated.

This is the thing that continues to boggle my mind. Your SIL and FIL are about to lose one of the most significant people in their lives to this, their vaccination status is even preventing them from saying goodbye, and they still refuse to get the free, safe, and highly effective shot? This has to be gut wrenching. My condolences.

[bigbill]

Sorry to hear of this turn Bill, but at least your wife can be there. My best friend lost his dad in a similar situation (advanced Alzheimer's), but the family wasn't able to be there. I should have phrased my earlier question on the manner of transmission differently--I was curious as to how the facility managed transmission precautions, and should have just asked more directly about that. I wish your wife (and you) strength for this process.

Thanks. Covid could have been introduced by an asymptomatic staffer or visitor. She was vaccinated and is still asymptomatic so it's likely that the Parkinson's is the reason for her rapid decline. My wife has to fly to Denver to pick up her aunt (who doesn't fly) and drive a rental to central Wyoming. My FIL is an absolute mess, they've been married for 55 years. I met and married my wife during Covid so I've never met her mom, just sat in some Zoom calls well after her mother had become non-responsive. Her excellent physical health is likely the only reason she's lasted this long. I would have liked to spoken with her, she was in the Peace Corps and a world traveler. She sounded like a fascinating woman.

[bigbill]

This is the thing that continues to boggle my mind. Your SIL and FIL are about to lose one of the most significant people in their lives to this, their vaccination status is even preventing them from saying goodbye, and they still refuse to get the free, safe, and highly effective shot? This has to be gut wrenching. My condolences.

It's frustrating and sad all at once. I lost a lot of my sympathy for the younger folks who refused vaccines then contracted Covid. This county lost quite a few people under 50, but the 20-50 demographic had as many cases as the older groups, just fewer deaths. How many of the elderly deaths were caused by younger folks like caregivers, immediate family, random interactions in a store, etc.

[classtimesailer]

from CDC
Fully vaccinated people with Delta variant breakthrough infections can spread the virus to others. However, vaccinated people appear to spread the virus for a shorter time: For prior variants, lower amounts of viral genetic material were found in samples taken from fully vaccinated people who had breakthrough infections than from unvaccinated people with COVID-19. For people infected with the Delta variant, similar amounts of viral genetic material have been found among both unvaccinated and fully vaccinated people. However, like prior variants, the amount of viral genetic material may go down faster in fully vaccinated people when compared to unvaccinated people. This means fully vaccinated people will likely spread the virus for less time than unvaccinated people.

Likely? Less time? Science?

What...EVVVVER. I'm pretty sure that I am done with this VAX stuff and I think it is time to move on. It could get rough at my house.

[zachateseverything]

from CDC
Fully vaccinated people with Delta variant breakthrough infections can spread the virus to others. However, vaccinated people appear to spread the virus for a shorter time: For prior variants, lower amounts of viral genetic material were found in samples taken from fully vaccinated people who had breakthrough infections than from unvaccinated people with COVID-19. For people infected with the Delta variant, similar amounts of viral genetic material have been found among both unvaccinated and fully vaccinated people. However, like prior variants, the amount of viral genetic material may go down faster in fully vaccinated people when compared to unvaccinated people. This means fully vaccinated people will likely spread the virus for less time than unvaccinated people.

Likely? Less time? Science?

What...EVVVVER. I'm pretty sure that I am done with this VAX stuff and I think it is time to move on. It could get rough at my house.

congrats on getting the shot.

[classtimesailer]

congrats on getting the shot.

But the booster.....? We'll see. My wife is looking forward to the Moderna booster.

[Saab2000]

Speaking of boosters…. I had my second Moderna shot in April. I won’t hesitate to get a booster when it’s recommended. But I am hesitant to just randomly get a third shot, which I think I could have done yesterday.

I was in the Dallas airport where I had just completed re-qualification training and there was a booth staffed by what appeared to be two Army National Guard medics. They were in uniform and the sign indicated that walkups could get a Pfizer or Moderna shot. It was tempting to just get a third one. It seems like this is a thing and people are doing it but without official guidance on the matter I’m reluctant to self prescribe treatment. I’m no doctor or scientist and I make a living anal retentively working within official guidelines. It’s not really in my nature to just wing it on these matters.

Anyone here get the sanctioned Pfizer booster? Or maybe another shot of J&J or Moderna? Also, I’m curious if these boosters result in a reaction like many had after their initial shots. I had virtually no reaction.

[thollandpe]

Speaking of boosters…. I had my second Moderna shot in April. I won’t hesitate to get a booster when it’s recommended. But I am hesitant to just randomly get a third shot, which I think I could have done yesterday.

I was in the Dallas airport where I had just completed re-qualification training and there was a booth staffed by what appeared to be two Army National Guard medics. They were in uniform and the sign indicated that walkups could get a Pfizer or Moderna shot. It was tempting to just get a third one. It seems like this is a thing and people are doing it but without official guidance on the matter I’m reluctant to self prescribe treatment. I’m no doctor or scientist and I make a living anal retentively working within official guidelines. It’s not really in my nature to just wing it on these matters.

Anyone here get the sanctioned Pfizer booster? Or maybe another shot of J&J or Moderna? Also, I’m curious if these boosters result in a reaction like many had after their initial shots. I had virtually no reaction.

I’ve talked with my doc about this, and there’s a difference between what they will officially recommend and what they’ll admit is a good idea. And then there’s what the docs are doing for themselves. Which, by my tiny and unofficial poll, is get the booster.

I’m with you on the mild initial reaction.

Johnson & Johnson recipients may benefit from a booster, but perhaps a different shot, new data suggests

[rwsaunders]

My pulmonologist bud is all about the flu shot and the booster and he likes to see a 2-week separation between these shots. I had the 2 Moderna jabs so I have to wait until their booster is approved and as soon as it is, I'll be in line.

[Saab2000]

I’ve talked with my doc about this, and there’s a difference between what they will officially recommend and what they’ll admit is a good idea. And then there’s what the docs are doing for themselves. Which, by my tiny and unofficial poll, is get the booster.

I’m with you on the mild initial reaction.

Johnson & Johnson recipients may benefit from a booster, but perhaps a different shot, new data suggests

A doctor friend of mine recommended I just get a third if I can. He seems pretty knowledgeable about this as most of his patients are immunocompromised. Yesterday was a good opportunity. I think there’s an official meeting this week where we will learn more guidance on the matter.

[thollandpe]

Looks to me there’s some wisdom to mixing the tech — following up the DNA-based vaccine with mRNA-based — yes?

Might that also work in reverse?

[Todd Amunrud]

We do an annual mass dispense drill for our employees to get flu shots. This year we added the COVID booster. I got both 9/30. Also, Friday is last day unvaccinated employee’s can work in our facilities. We’re inline to lose about 15 employees in our clinic systems. Not sure in our hospital, but we’re losing some. So we’re closing some availability until new employees can be hired.

[vertical_doug]

Looks to me there’s some wisdom to mixing the tech — following up the DNA-based vaccine with mRNA-based — yes?

Might that also work in reverse?

I think it is just splitting hairs and either way is fine. The DNA based JNJ vaccine just has the advantage that DNA is more robust than mRNA so the vaccine can be stored longer and at warmer temperatures. For the developing world, this seems like a real winner.

But correct me if I am wrong, once the DNA enters a host cell in the body via the modified virus host, mRNA then creates the same spike protein. So you get a similar immune response to either of the BioNtech or Moderna mRNA vaccines.

I also think if the 'Christian' anti-vaxxers who are refusing the mRNA vaccines because of possible use of aborted fetal cells, they can be told to get the JNJ vaccine since it is just a modified adenovirus. So there religious argument doesn't hold.

[kdawg]

Speaking of boosters…. I had my second Moderna shot in April. I won’t hesitate to get a booster when it’s recommended. But I am hesitant to just randomly get a third shot, which I think I could have done yesterday.

I was in the Dallas airport where I had just completed re-qualification training and there was a booth staffed by what appeared to be two Army National Guard medics. They were in uniform and the sign indicated that walkups could get a Pfizer or Moderna shot. It was tempting to just get a third one. It seems like this is a thing and people are doing it but without official guidance on the matter I’m reluctant to self prescribe treatment. I’m no doctor or scientist and I make a living anal retentively working within official guidelines. It’s not really in my nature to just wing it on these matters.

Anyone here get the sanctioned Pfizer booster? Or maybe another shot of J&J or Moderna? Also, I’m curious if these boosters result in a reaction like many had after their initial shots. I had virtually no reaction.

I had a Pfizer booster a few weeks ago - and really had no reaction. I'd just come off a 12 hour shift (giving the vaccines...) and almost exactly 12 hours after getting the shot I was exhausted - hard to tell if that was a true reaction or just a long day at work but I woke the next day feeling fine.

I've had 3 Pfizer's in total now. Now we're using Moderna - but I'm told that's just a supply issue. Anyone gets that as either a third dose (8 weeks after any other vaccine, 0.5mL for immunocompromised or vulnerable people) or a booster (0.25mL for a wider category and has to be 6 months post-vaccination).

I haven't seen a lot of data but that's what we're telling us is effective - and a good idea.

[AngryScientist]

We do an annual mass dispense drill for our employees to get flu shots. This year we added the COVID booster. I got both 9/30. Also, Friday is last day unvaccinated employee’s can work in our facilities. We’re inline to lose about 15 employees in our clinic systems. Not sure in our hospital, but we’re losing some. So we’re closing some availability until new employees can be hired.

It really is fascinating that people who work in a healthcare setting would (a) refuse the vax; and (b) would rather lose their jobs than just comply. Amazing really.