2020 Political Chatter

[Mark Kelly]

It will be.

[jimcav]

I hear you say that like yoda:


plus I hope the resignations continue--finally the crew there is realizing the band is playing 'nearer my god to thee'; and it is time to get of the uss trumpanic

[guido]

Why Trump Must Be Removed and Disqualified From Public Office | New York Times

"After a mob incited by President Trump stormed and occupied the Capitol, American democracy needs protecting now — and not just now but in the coming weeks and years as well.

There are reports of preliminary discussions within the administration about invoking the 25h Amendment, a provision in the Constitution that provides a process to declare a sitting president no longer capable of fulfilling his duties. Another call is coming from a surprising source: The National Association of Manufacturers, not normally an organization known for this kind of political activism, said that Vice President Mike Pence “should seriously consider working with the cabinet” to invoke the amendment to remove President Trump and “preserve democracy.” People are invoking the 25th Amendment on the grounds that Mr. Trump is not fit to hold office and incited the chaos that unfolded on Capitol Hill — and may unfold again.

There are also calls from a number of Democratic representatives to impeach and remove the president for his actions around the illegal and violent takeover of one of the most hallowed traditions in American democracy.

The magnitude of the current crisis calls for both of these measures. The threat the president poses to our democracy is not short-lived and must be cut off urgently and decisively — before it leads to even greater degradation to American democratic processes and traditions. It will need to happen quickly, even with other demands pressing on our country’s leadership like certifying the election results, rolling out the coronavirus vaccine and calming a nation in crisis."

[guido]

Trump caused the assault on the Capitol. He must be removed. | Washington Post

"PRESIDENT TRUMP’S refusal to accept his election defeat and his relentless incitement of his supporters led Wednesday to the unthinkable: an assault on the U.S. Capitol by a violent mob that overwhelmed police and drove Congress from its chambers as it was debating the counting of electoral votes. Responsibility for this act of sedition lies squarely with the president, who has shown that his continued tenure in office poses a grave threat to U.S. democracy. He should be removed.

Mr. Trump encouraged the mob to gather on Wednesday, as Congress was set to convene, and to “be wild.” After repeating a panoply of absurd conspiracy theories about the election, he urged the crowd to march on the Capitol. “We’re going to walk down, and I’ll be there with you,” he said. “You’ll never take back our country with weakness. You have to show strength, and you have to be strong.” The president did not follow the mob, but instead passively watched it on television as its members tore down fences around the Capitol and overwhelmed police guarding the building. House members and senators were forced to flee. Shots were fired, and at least one person was struck and killed.

Rather than immediately denouncing the violence and calling on his supporters to stand down, Mr. Trump issued two mild tweets in which he called on them to “remain” or “stay” peaceful. Following appeals from senior Republicans, he finally released a video in which he asked people to go home, but doubled down on the lies fueling the vigilantes. “We love you. You’re very special,” he told his seditious posse. Later, he excused the riot, tweeting that “these are the things and events that happen when a sacred landslide election victory is so unceremoniously & viciously stripped away.”

The president is unfit to remain in office for the next 14 days. Every second he retains the vast powers of the presidency is a threat to public order and national security. Vice President Pence, who had to be whisked off the Senate floor for his own protection, should immediately gather the Cabinet to invoke the 25th Amendment, declaring that Mr. Trump is “unable to discharge the powers and duties of his office.” Congress, which would be required to ratify the action if Mr. Trump resisted, should do so. Mr. Pence should serve until President-elect Joe Biden is inaugurated on Jan. 20.

Failing that, senior Republicans must restrain the president. The insurrection came just as many top Republicans, including Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell (Ky.), were finally denouncing Mr. Trump’s antidemocratic campaign to overturn the election results. A depressing number of GOP legislators — such as Sen. Josh Hawley (Mo.), Sen. Ted Cruz (Tex.), House Minority Leader Kevin McCarthy (Calif.) and House Minority Whip Steve Scalise (La.) — were prepared to support Mr. Trump’s effort, fueling the rage of those the president has duped into believing the election was stolen.

Mr. McConnell, to his lasting credit, was not. “President Trump claims the election was stolen,” he said. But “nothing before us proves illegality anywhere near the massive scale, the massive scale, that would have tipped the entire election. . . . If this election were overturned by mere allegations from the losing side, our democracy would enter a death spiral.” He added: “I will not pretend such a vote would be a harmless protest gesture while relying on others to do the right thing.” As if to prove his point, the Trump mob would soon climb up the Capitol walls, and Mr. McConnell and his colleagues would seek refuge in secured locations."

[vertical_doug]

We are lucky Trump is a deep down a coward and clown. Once the toothpaste came out of tube yesterday, someone like Erdogan or Orban would realize the die has been cast, and they have to finish it or go to prison. Trump, because he doesn't see the big picture, was still stewing about Pence. He missed his opportunity. In the future with a different person, we may not be so lucky.

We know there is an affinity bias between law enforcement and MAGA. You also had MAGA protestors at a score of State Capitals- some of them armed heavily, see Michigan again for details.

Instead, we are left with a ex-President who will continue to claim the election was stolen and he won in a landslide. The misinformation media chamber is already working overtime to spin yesterday events. Useful Idiot Matt Gaetz was on Laura Ingraham last night blaming Antifa who used the peaceful rally as cover to commit the acts.

I hope I am wrong, and the next few months shows this to be Trump's Joe McCarthy moment of 'have you no shame' and he fades from view. But I think the alt-reality ecosystem on the net is too big and myth making has already begun.

Trump will need to pardon Don Jr for the speech yesterday in front of the mob- Rise up and Fight, you can be a hero or a zero.
Otherwise, I think he is going to jail.

The clowns who posted selfies in Pelosi's office etc can easily found via social media footprint. They need to be tried too.

[Mark Kelly]

It won't happen.

Both the 24th route and the impeachment route need a 2/3 majority in the senate. The only time that kind of action would succeed is after the primaries but before the general election: this is the only time that Republicans care more about voters that they do about their base. It's a short window and it has passed.

[robin3mj]

Let’s not forget the continued all time highs in Covid deaths keep coming. Nearly 4,000 yesterday, while the president played My First Dictator and his toadies either played along or polished their resumes.

[davids]

I gave up on waiting for Trump's "McCarthy Moment" years ago.

The media dynamics are too different - there's no authoritative narrative, for better or worse. Instead it's Write Your Own Reality.

That's the only plausible explanation for the insurrections' behavior, live-posting their treason on TikTok, Twitter and Instagram as if they were patriots.

[htwoopup]

As Matt said...It saddens me that the US is losing more lives EVERY DAY than we lost on 9/11. And, we went absolutely batshit and spent all kinds of money and military lives and did all kinds of topsy turvy to legal systems (privacy etc) to “combat” that and “make sure it never happens again (didn’t do it tho)” yet the COVID thing seems oh well no big deal, look the other way.

Also, taking another look at this on another point...it is remarkable the number of congressmen who voted to “object” to the validity of elections in which they themselves were elected. What it shows to me is how messed up the gerrymandering of districts has made the country as these folks aren’t afraid of losing in a general to someone more “centrist” or “left” of them but of losing in a primary to someone more “right” “conservative” then them. It is a recipe for rule by tyranny of the loudest/ craziest/ most violent extremist group ATMO.

[j44ke]

Behind all this is the power of QAnon. The woman who was killed was a QAnon follower. Reading between the lines on the quotes from her ex-husband, it sounds like that may have been an element in the failure of their marriage in 2019. It is like there is this whole population of people who had none of the internalized safe-guards against Internet misinformation. Rolling out the Internet had an effect like bringing alcohol and smallpox to an aboriginal tribe in the rainforest. In fact, that it shows up on the Internet means that it is somehow truer than truth, realer than real. What vacuum exists in these people's lives that completely obvious crap (to most of the rest of the world) like this occupies and infects.

The left has their own mythologies. I've heard plenty. But QAnon is in a completely different league I think. A different magnitude. How many "Save the Children" signs did you see in images of the crowds? WTF.

[bigbill]

Probably way-way off topic, but I'm finishing up my capstone/thesis on the Lost Cause myth. Following the Civil War, Southern "historians" created an alternative history to justify the destruction of their economy and way of life. They did it with blame. Robert E. Lee would have won at Gettysburg but General Longstreet's actions lost the battle. This isn't true, but it protected the deification of Lee by shifting blame. Lee was a poor tactician and sacrificed his men because he wouldn't listen to his advisors. Pence is Longstreet. Trump has been deified by his rabid followers, my neighborhood is dotted with flags bearing his image. Now the game is blame because Trump is surely incapable of failure. So now, he has destroyed the Republican party because of his actions, the rationalization and alternate history will increase in the next year. I hope we're smarter this time, but we won't be.

[jmgorman]

Probably way-way off topic, but I'm finishing up my capstone/thesis on the Lost Cause myth....

Not off-topic at all. Heather Cox Richardson (of Boston College), author of the recent How the South won the War, started off today's letter with, "Today the Confederate Flag flew from the United States Capitol." She, among others, has shown the direct descendancy of this movement from the Lost Cause.

[davids]

Probably way-way off topic, but I'm finishing up my capstone/thesis on the Lost Cause myth. Following the Civil War, Southern "historians" created an alternative history to justify the destruction of their economy and way of life. They did it with blame. Robert E. Lee would have won at Gettysburg but General Longstreet's actions lost the battle. This isn't true, but it protected the deification of Lee by shifting blame. Lee was a poor tactician and sacrificed his men because he wouldn't listen to his advisors. Pence is Longstreet. Trump has been deified by his rabid followers, my neighborhood is dotted with flags bearing his image. Now the game is blame because Trump is surely incapable of failure. So now, he has destroyed the Republican party because of his actions, the rationalization and alternate history will increase in the next year. I hope we're smarter this time, but we won't be.

Not off topic at all.

You've all seen the images of the guy(s?) with the Confederate Battle Flag in the Capitol? That's a flag of traitors, repurposed by the alternative history you're studying.

I too hope we're smarter, and I too doubt we will be. We got lucky this time, that the demagogue is a very stupid man.

[gregl]

Behind all this is the power of QAnon. The woman who was killed was a QAnon follower. Reading between the lines on the quotes from her ex-husband, it sounds like that may have been an element in the failure of their marriage in 2019. It is like there is this whole population of people who had none of the internalized safe-guards against Internet misinformation. Rolling out the Internet had an effect like bringing alcohol and smallpox to an aboriginal tribe in the rainforest. In fact, that it shows up on the Internet means that it is somehow truer than truth, realer than real. What vacuum exists in these people's lives that completely obvious crap (to most of the rest of the world) like this occupies and infects.

The left has their own mythologies. I've heard plenty. But QAnon is in a completely different league I think. A different magnitude. How many "Save the Children" signs did you see in images of the crowds? WTF.

QAnon is essentially a religion - albeit an online religion likely run by a former US soldier turned pig farmer. Q followers show all the zeal of evangelicals, they just worship the mythical leader Q. Like other religious zealots, Q followers are filling a void in their psycho-social being and can't be bothered with logic or truth. It's nearly impossible to reason with them or convince them to change their beliefs. The dialog below is from Dogma, one of my favorite movies.

Greg

[Sino]

Sorry I don't see death or decapitation listed in the amendment. But I am all for calmer heads. Right now, I think Trump's head currently renders him unable to discharge the powers and duties of his office. I'm pretty calm about it. I think you are wrong that this is going to end in two weeks though.

I understand your opinion, and while it may be justifiable, I'm against bending the Constitution in a completely reactionary and ill-thought out course of action. As you've already come to realize in your other posts, these sorts of reactionary panic actions frequently have unintended and sometimes severe consequences.

Personally I have the feeling that them getting into Capitol Hill and accomplishing absolutely nothing was the straw that broke their back. I don't think anything will continue on.

Like the Queen says, "ride this shit out." :)

Besides, the language of the 4th section is infinitely challengeable, which Trump would relish.

"Thereafter, when the President transmits to the President pro tempore of the Senate and the Speaker of the House of Representatives his written declaration that no inability exists, he shall resume the powers and duties of his office." If he's unfit, etc. they need to impeach and follow the established protocols and legally proven ways of removing a president.

[72gmc]

^^^ Agreed, that seems so poorly written. Doctor President, heal thyself, apparently.

[Doug Fattic]

Behind all this is the power of QAnon. The woman who was killed was a QAnon follower. Reading between the lines on the quotes from her ex-husband, it sounds like that may have been an element in the failure of their marriage in 2019. It is like there is this whole population of people who had none of the internalized safe-guards against Internet misinformation. Rolling out the Internet had an effect like bringing alcohol and smallpox to an aboriginal tribe in the rainforest. In fact, that it shows up on the Internet means that it is somehow truer than truth, realer than real. What vacuum exists in these people's lives that completely obvious crap (to most of the rest of the world) like this occupies and infects.

The left has their own mythologies. I've heard plenty. But QAnon is in a completely different league I think. A different magnitude. How many "Save the Children" signs did you see in images of the crowds? WTF.

I've been fascinated by those that are Qanon believers (the "anon" after Q stands for anonymous). I would think that anyone that graduated from 8th grade would have enough sense not follow them. How anyone could believe that there is a cabal of high up Democratic government and Hollywood individuals that are sexual predators on children and then cannibalistically eat them is beyond me. I would think parents of the victims might notice and make a fuss. It wouldn't be a believable plot for even a D grade movie. Trump apparently is going to save these children (or something). Furthermore nobody knows who this Q person (or persons) is. He/she/they drops hints in odd places (I have no idea where on the internet these places are located) that interpreters interpret so true believers can understand what is said. It makes so little sense I can't even describe it adequately. They like to use religious imagery associated with Biblical prophecy too. I'm religious and also don't understand how other religious people can't see that Donald Trump is amoral and all his actions are motived only by self interest. I fail to see how anything he does leads to any good. This world is full of mysteries.

[Saab2000]

I understand your opinion, and while it may be justifiable, I'm against bending the Constitution in a completely reactionary and ill-thought out course of action. As you've already come to realize in your other posts, these sorts of reactionary panic actions frequently have unintended and sometimes severe consequences.

Personally I have the feeling that them getting into Capitol Hill and accomplishing absolutely nothing was the straw that broke their back. I don't think anything will continue on.

Like the Queen says, "ride this shit out." :)

Besides, the language of the 4th section is infinitely challengeable, which Trump would relish.

"Thereafter, when the President transmits to the President pro tempore of the Senate and the Speaker of the House of Representatives his written declaration that no inability exists, he shall resume the powers and duties of his office." If he's unfit, etc. they need to impeach and follow the established protocols and legally proven ways of removing a president.

This is the correct way to do it. They could but I doubt the GOP leaders have the courage to do it.

[Matthew Strongin]

Probably way-way off topic, but I'm finishing up my capstone/thesis on the Lost Cause myth. Following the Civil War, Southern "historians" created an alternative history to justify the destruction of their economy and way of life. They did it with blame. Robert E. Lee would have won at Gettysburg but General Longstreet's actions lost the battle. This isn't true, but it protected the deification of Lee by shifting blame. Lee was a poor tactician and sacrificed his men because he wouldn't listen to his advisors. Pence is Longstreet. Trump has been deified by his rabid followers, my neighborhood is dotted with flags bearing his image. Now the game is blame because Trump is surely incapable of failure. So now, he has destroyed the Republican party because of his actions, the rationalization and alternate history will increase in the next year. I hope we're smarter this time, but we won't be.

My fairly recent discovery of a CSA monument at the Miami City Cemetery (placed by the United Daughters of the Confederacy) piqued my interest in the Lost Cause Myth, so I've spent a pretty good amount of time over the last few months reading about it. I can see why you'd choose that topic for your thesis. It's fascinating.

[j44ke]

I understand your opinion, and while it may be justifiable, I'm against bending the Constitution in a completely reactionary and ill-thought out course of action. As you've already come to realize in your other posts, these sorts of reactionary panic actions frequently have unintended and sometimes severe consequences.

Personally I have the feeling that them getting into Capitol Hill and accomplishing absolutely nothing was the straw that broke their back. I don't think anything will continue on.

Like the Queen says, "ride this shit out." :)

Besides, the language of the 4th section is infinitely challengeable, which Trump would relish.

"Thereafter, when the President transmits to the President pro tempore of the Senate and the Speaker of the House of Representatives his written declaration that no inability exists, he shall resume the powers and duties of his office." If he's unfit, etc. they need to impeach and follow the established protocols and legally proven ways of removing a president.

Sorry - I don't understand the bolded reference above to my other posts. What reactionary panic actions I have I had that has caused unintended and sometimes severe consequences?