2020 Political Chatter

[thollandpe]

I cannot fathom the sentiment of leaving the current POTUS in place. He has moved against our own country, and is attempting to subvert the will of the people. He egged on these domestic terrorists. It's like leaving a cancer in the body, or letting a burglar stay in the basement because maybe he'll have everything he needs down there and it will be fine. Let's watch this fire in the kitchen before putting it out, maybe it won't spread to the bedrooms.

We have people inside the government actively working to destroy it, and one of them is the President. Any and every moment that he continues to have any access to the levers of power, and any authority over other people in our government or military is a clear and present danger. Tick tock.

25th amendment, now. Impeachment, now.

People say they'd like to see the government run more like a business. Whether you agree with that or not, it's clear that if an employee of a company behaved like this they'd be led from the building in handcuffs.

[Sino]

Sorry - I don't understand the bolded reference above to my other posts. What reactionary panic actions I have I had that has caused unintended and sometimes severe consequences?

That putting Pence into power means he could pardon Trump, or that any other variety of worse scenarios that no one thought about.

I didn't mean you personally, sorry for the confusion. I guess I'm more on the pacifist side of the fence on this one since it's only 12 more days, but like I said, I understand the other side as well.

[Tom]

Running up until now you had people saying Trump isn't lying because he's convinced himself he won the election. OK, so the President is delusional. Not a problem. Yesterday, the reports were that as things were unfolding nobody would approach Trump because he was so angry at Pence he couldn't see straight. OK, so the President is having an emotional breakdown. Not a problem.

What exactly does it take to establish that the President is unable to discharge the duties of office?

[Sino]

Running up until now you had people saying Trump isn't lying because he's convinced himself he won the election. OK, so the President is delusional. Not a problem. Yesterday, the reports were that as things were unfolding nobody would approach Trump because he was so angry at Pence he couldn't see straight. OK, so the President is having an emotional breakdown. Not a problem.

What exactly does it take to establish that the President is unable to discharge the duties of office?

In the United States, it should take hard proof (not "the reports") and Congressional hearings. Neither of which is going to happen in 12 days. Taking him out, skirting and bending the law, is only going to add fuel to the fire. Right now he's seen as a failure by EVERYONE on both sides. Don't make a martyr of him, I think that's rule #1 in at least one handbook.

Let him fade away. His only remaining power is already gone- the biggest blow of which is he can't Tweet or anything else.

[colker]

I cannot fathom the sentiment of leaving the current POTUS in place. He has moved against our own country, and is attempting to subvert the will of the people. He egged on these domestic terrorists. It's like leaving a cancer in the body, or letting a burglar stay in the basement because maybe he'll have everything he needs down there and it will be fine. Let's watch this fire in the kitchen before putting it out, maybe it won't spread to the bedrooms.

We have people inside the government actively working to destroy it, and one of them is the President. Any and every moment that he continues to have any access to the levers of power, and any authority over other people in our government or military is a clear and present danger. Tick tock.

25th amendment, now. Impeachment, now.

People say they'd like to see the government run more like a business. Whether you agree with that or not, it's clear that if an employee of a company behaved like this they'd be led from the building in handcuffs.

Impeachment has a high political cost. Otoh i agree entirely w/ you and letting this go without punishment is dangerous on the short term. Whatever is decided it must weaken definitely the delinquents which follow Trump.

[Tom]

Sino, one investigates "the reports". That would be responsible.

Trump isn't a 15 year old. "Donny, you were bad. I'm taking away your phone for 30 days." I would think the treatment of somebody in that position would be a little more consequential.

You have a point, though. Two weeks is a short time and ramming something through is not feasible. If it were to happen, it should have been done by 7:30 this morning. At this point it is too late. It also should have been a situation of the Cabinet calling up the Senate and saying "We've voted, Pence is caretaker until the 20th." Coming from any of the Democrats or even rational Republicans in Congress would certainly fan the flames.

If they can isolate the guy so he can't destroy everything and is basically a null set shouting at the walls that's probably the best we can hope for. Change the nuclear codes and don't tell him what they are. Disconnect the phones. Put sleeping pills in the snacks so he naps all day. Whatever it takes.

[davids]

Seems the fracture in american society precedes Trump. Civil wars never end well.

I know this isn't your country, but I'm a little surprised that you thought these evils began with a NYC huckster con-man in 2015.

Slavery is the original sin of the United States and its poison runs through the centuries. Bigbill's research touches on one particular era and set of activities, set to create a righteous narrative papering over treason, violence and defeat.

Honestly you could choose any decade between between 1620 and now, and uncover history that lays bare the tragedy and inhumanity of slavery and racism.

[theflashunc]

In the United States, it should take hard proof (not "the reports") and Congressional hearings. Neither of which is going to happen in 12 days. Taking him out, skirting and bending the law, is only going to add fuel to the fire. Right now he's seen as a failure by EVERYONE on both sides. Don't make a martyr of him, I think that's rule #1 in at least one handbook.

Let him fade away. His only remaining power is already gone- the biggest blow of which is he can't Tweet or anything else.

He's a martyr to his supporters either way. And this wasn't just him. Hawley and Cruz should be expelled from the Senate. McCarthy should be removed from the House. Those who incited the mob yesterday, including Guiliani, Lin Wood and Don Jr at the rally beforehand, should be charged and tried.

Without real consequences for both the architects of yesterday's insurrection and it's actual perpetrators, this will happen again.

This is fascism, and it needs to be stamped out by the branches of government now.

[davids]

Running up until now you had people saying Trump isn't lying because he's convinced himself he won the election. OK, so the President is delusional. Not a problem. Yesterday, the reports were that as things were unfolding nobody would approach Trump because he was so angry at Pence he couldn't see straight. OK, so the President is having an emotional breakdown. Not a problem.

What exactly does it take to establish that the President is unable to discharge the duties of office?

In the United States, it should take hard proof (not "the reports") and Congressional hearings. Neither of which is going to happen in 12 days. Taking him out, skirting and bending the law, is only going to add fuel to the fire. Right now he's seen as a failure by EVERYONE on both sides. Don't make a martyr of him, I think that's rule #1 in at least one handbook.

Let him fade away. His only remaining power is already gone- the biggest blow of which is he can't Tweet or anything else.

I see the logic in both these arguments and am torn.

It's dismaying, but totally predictable, to see members of Trump's Cabinet "principally resigning" as a way to avoid the question. Yeah I'm looking at you Elaine Chao. I'm not impressed by your four years of complicity and two weeks hiding.

But I read the 25th earlier today and the dance - VP and Cabinet write a letter declaring Trump incompetent; Trump writes a letter saying he is competent; VP & Cabinet write back and ask Congress to decide who's right; Congress decides - takes weeks. And someone Trump still talks to will probably explain this to him.

Unfortunately, while he's lost his ability to tweet he's still the Commander in Chief. And he may eventually notice that the Armed Forces seem to be taking their directions from Pence and Pelosi rather than him.

So either he's impeached and convicted by the weekend - and we all know the odds of that - or we hide under our desks and ride this out until the 20th.

[Clean39T]

I know this isn't your country, but I'm a little surprised that you thought these evils began with a NYC huckster con-man in 2015.

Slavery is the original sin of the United States and its poison runs through the centuries. Bigbill's research touches on one particular era and set of activities, set to create a righteous narrative papering over treason, violence and defeat.

Honestly you could choose any decade between between 1620 and now, and uncover history that lays bare the tragedy and inhumanity of slavery and racism.

Original sin of the USA. Mid-life sin of pretty much every other nation (guess it depends on where and when you start counting).

And not one of them (or us) has fully stopped, as evidenced by the disparate treatment of terrorists yesterday as compared to protestors for human rights and equal justice this past year.

[gregl]

He's a martyr to his supporters either way. And this wasn't just him. Hawley and Cruz should be expelled from the Senate. McCarthy should be removed from the House. Those who incited the mob yesterday, including Guiliani, Lin Wood and Don Jr at the rally beforehand, should be charged and tried.

Without real consequences for both the architects of yesterday's insurrection and it's actual perpetrators, this will happen again.

This is fascism, and it needs to be stamped out by the branches of government now.

And don't forget newly elected Congressman Derrick Evans. He should be arrested by the FBI along with the other domestic terrorists. Shouldn't be too hard to find...

Greg

[bigbill]

Slavery is the original sin of the United States and its poison runs through the centuries. Bigbill's research touches on one particular era and set of activities, set to create a righteous narrative papering over treason, violence and defeat.

The part that makes me nervous is the power that Trump still retains. For my research, the Southern Democrats in Congress and the Southern states decided that war was inevitable over the question of slavery. The Civil War destroyed the economy of the South, wrecked their political power, and cost the lives of as many as 600K on both sides. The South had to come up with a better reason than slavery, so the rationalization shifted to state's rights. I was taught this in school.

Trump has destroyed the Republican party and the political futures of those closest to him, all because he wanted people to believe baseless reports of widespread voter fraud. So far we've seen the scorched earth approach on a small scale, I hope he learned from that, and more importantly, his followers learned from that. If you burn your own house down, don't be pissed because you're homeless.

[gregl]

The part that makes me nervous is the power that Trump still retains. For my research, the Southern Democrats in Congress and the Southern states decided that war was inevitable over the question of slavery. The Civil War destroyed the economy of the South, wrecked their political power, and cost the lives of as many as 600K on both sides. The South had to come up with a better reason than slavery, so the rationalization shifted to state's rights. I was taught this in school.

Trump has destroyed the Republican party and the political futures of those closest to him, all because he wanted people to believe baseless reports of widespread voter fraud. So far we've seen the scorched earth approach on a small scale, I hope he learned from that, and more importantly, his followers learned from that. If you burn your own house down, don't be pissed because you're homeless.

They won't learn, they'll blame someone else. White rage, yet another element in the enduring legacy of slavery and ongoing racism. They'll burn their own house down and blame it on the fact that they are "losing their rights." At the most basic, fundamental core of these issues, it's white males unhappy at losing their hegemony.

Greg

[ColonelJLloyd]

And don't forget newly elected Congressman Derrick Evans. He should be arrested by the FBI along with the other domestic terrorists. Shouldn't be too hard to find...

Greg

Just to clarify, he's not a US congressperson, but a newly-elected member of the lower house of the West Virginia Legislature. I feel like this was not made clear in the audio story I heard yesterday. Anyhow, I doubt he is the only state legislator found to be at the Capitol in similar fashion yesterday.

[thollandpe]

So far we've seen the scorched earth approach on a small scale, I hope he learned from that, and more importantly, his followers learned from that. If you burn your own house down, don't be pissed because you're homeless.

This is the heart of the incredibly frustrating and impossible-to-solve problem of dealing with a malignant narcissist. That they will will learn. That this is the bottom. That next time will be better.

They won't learn, this is not the bottom, it can and will get worse. There is more left to burn and we must act accordingly, because there is a lot more left to burn.

[gregl]

Just to clarify, he's not a US congressperson, but a newly-elected member of the lower house of the West Virginia Legislature. I feel like this was not made clear in the audio story I heard yesterday. Anyhow, I doubt he is the only state legislator found to be at the Capitol in similar fashion yesterday.

Thank you for the correction! I much appreciate the factual discussion here and am always happy to have my errors corrected.

Greg

[Doug Fattic]

But I read the 25th earlier today and the dance - VP and Cabinet write a letter declaring Trump incompetent; Trump writes a letter saying he is competent; VP & Cabinet write back and ask Congress to decide who's right; Congress decides - takes weeks. And someone Trump still talks to will probably explain this to him.

I heard one of the TV commentators yesterday say that the VP assumes Presidential authority immediately after more than half the cabinet along with him submit their request for the President's removal. If the President objects, he still can not be reinstated for something like 21 days while congress is deliberating. In this case, that means that time runs out on Trump. Am I missing something? I quickly read the 4th Section of the 25th amendment but this part was not clear to me.

One other problem is that many of the cabinet are appointed members not voted in by congress so would their vote be valid ?

[AngryScientist]

I heard one of the TV commentators yesterday say that the VP assumes Presidential authority immediately after more than half the cabinet along with him submit their request for the President's removal. If the President objects, he still can not be reinstated for something like 21 days while congress is deliberating. In this case, that means that time runs out on Trump. Am I missing something? I quickly read the 4th Section of the 25th amendment but this part was not clear to me.

my understanding is you are correct doug, once the 25th is initially invoked, the dems could easily stall a deliberation until the 20th, during which time pence has the con.

[colker]

I know this isn't your country, but I'm a little surprised that you thought these evils began with a NYC huckster con-man in 2015.

Slavery is the original sin of the United States and its poison runs through the centuries. Bigbill's research touches on one particular era and set of activities, set to create a righteous narrative papering over treason, violence and defeat.

Honestly you could choose any decade between between 1620 and now, and uncover history that lays bare the tragedy and inhumanity of slavery and racism.

We have the same stain : there is a brilliant 19th century brazilian politician and writer called Joaquim Nabuco ( a monarchist and conservative btw) who dennounced the moral misery of slavery in a beautifully written page of his memoirs.

[j44ke]

That putting Pence into power means he could pardon Trump, or that any other variety of worse scenarios that no one thought about.

I didn't mean you personally, sorry for the confusion. I guess I'm more on the pacifist side of the fence on this one since it's only 12 more days, but like I said, I understand the other side as well.

I don't understand what that (bold) means either. Looks like a sentence fragment to me.

Pacifism isn't the "other side of the fence" right now. You can be against violence but for legally ending the current President's tenure. They are not mutually exclusive premises. Pacifism isn't appeasement.

And Trump isn't going to fade away. To be rid of him, he will need sterner measures than vacation.