Frame builder boom

[shoe]

hey curt don't worry it gets easier...well maybe that just depends on the day...i find i would rather do a good job and enjoy my life then be consumed by the crap i see f-cknuts due in my industry...i have seen the same thing happen in the tattoo industry that you speak of now..there was a time when you had to do an apprenticeship and pay your dues and get in through a door which wasn't easy to open..if you tried to do it on your own you were quite possibly scared of the many different scenarios of what might happen to you...that being said - any knucklehead that thinks they can pick up a pencil thinks they can do a tattoo now...and now the doors are wide open..the old guard is gone and a new group has come in...things are no longer earned with hard work trust and respect...but blabbed about over the internet or conventions freely between the ignorance is bliss crew...i was resentful and still am to a small degree but it all doesn't matter. it is the nature of the beast...i realize now there is plenty of room for all..it has just expanded...some people like really good tattoos - some people like to get tattooed by so and so cause they are hot at the moment -some people just go to who they like- some cause there person is the cheapest. when i think about it at times maybe i just find myself resentful because when i learned it was alot harder to earn your way...and now it seems like it is handed to people...there was always an expression in the biz..take care of tattooing and it will take care of you...modern times now is all for better and for worse...there is always the lead by example which i think most of you cats do...quality work with integrity....what about the ART...(yawn) but i guess that 3 letter word is perceived in different ways...rock on....d

[maddog17]

good point shoe, when Mass. finally allowed tattoo shops to open a few years back, they were opening like Starbucks!!! and now i see that quite a few have closed shop. why i don't know but i'll assume it was either due to poor work or just the amount of shops that opened.

[e-RICHIE]

Mr. Tuner. I havent contacted Caspian yet because I think I need to test this slide / barrel on a working frame first to be sure it isnt one of these. Not likely the barrel, but I am wondering about the slide.

Ill do the other test you mentioned tonight, but Im not understanding how that will test the barrel? There is no link involved yet, btw., and the feet are not hitting bottom.

heh atmo?

[Disturbed]

Mr. Tuner. I havent contacted Caspian yet because I think I need to test this slide / barrel on a working frame first to be sure it isnt one of these. Not likely the barrel, but I am wondering about the slide.

Ill do the other test you mentioned tonight, but Im not understanding how that will test the barrel? There is no link involved yet, btw., and the feet are not hitting bottom.

I had a comped Caspian .38 super that would group 1/2" @ 25 yard prone 19 years ago....

[Scott G.]

heh atmo?

1911 pistol = lugged steel frame,
Caspian = Kirk Pacenti
Ed Brown = Albert Eisentraut.
Double Gun Journal = Rouleur magazine
Bruce Gordon = Jeff Cooper
John Moses Browning = Pino Moroni + Steve Jobs
Massad Ayoob = Jan Heine

[niedz]

if you can't do what these cats did(kirk and the likes), you do it yourself. you toil at the bench on evenings and weekends for 10 years before positioning yourself. it helps if you had a 10 prior years in hard core bike shops to help you along. this is what i did and i did it without the benefit of the internet, nahbs or a boom. i knew i was gonna build 10 years before i ever touched a raw tube.

a man with a plan.

i have 10yrs in bike shops, almost 3 years in my barn at a bench with about 7 files and a hacksaw. the only power tool i had up until a month ago is a 9.6v makita drill that i got for HS graduation.

my slate shingle is still on the roof that i rent.

will i be a threat in 7 years to the 'masters'? no, but i hope they know my name.

[Disturbed]

1911 pistol = lugged steel frame,
Caspian = Kirk Pacenti
Ed Brown = Albert Eisentraut.
Double Gun Journal = Rouleur magazine
Bruce Gordon = Jeff Cooper
John Moses Browning = Pino Moroni + Steve Jobs
Massad Ayoob = Jan Heine

E richie = Jack Weaver

IPSA = Cyclocross

USPSA= Hippsters

IPDA = 80's MTBers

[Scott G.]

E richie = Jack Weaver

IPSA = Cyclocross

USPSA= Hippsters

Tweed Rides = SASS aka Cowboy action matches in general.

Rivendell = Track of Wolf, black powder rifle repops.

Who would Rapha be ?
Skeeter Skelton ?

[Disturbed]

Who would Rapha be ?

Micheal MacIntosh.

[jsrieck]

Having read this thread, it seems the biggest beef with the new entrants into the market are a perceived lack of design ability & experience. So what if the new frame builder just rips off the geometry of a De Rosa or a Colnago? The frame builder is just selling a custom paint job and an image...

And another question, do all these old master framebuilders call up their clients and quiz them about how the bike feels? I mean, where is the R&D?

[DCT]

some of the builders actually race and sponsor teams

[ron l edmiston]

desire to learn and play quality tennis ---- darren or ya USPTA pro is the place to start....
desire a quality frame / fork ---- the framebuilders' collective pro is the place to start....

as a customer looking through the window.....

ronnie

[Proparc]

This is a fascinating thread. I am not quite sure why framebuilding would be any different than any other industry. If there is a ongoing boom, you can be sure, there will be a corresponding shake-out. We operate in a free market economy by choice. All of us have the free market right to "hang out our shingle".

We certainly like it when Toyota has to routinely go up against Honda and we get the benefit of kick-ass quality cars at affordable prices. We certainly like it when companies like UPS and Fedex have to get our supples to us next day because, if they don't, some other competitor most certainly will. We sure as hell like when them there cheap air fare wars starts to a commencing!!

A certain "very large country",(with a lot of nukes) tried to establish an "artificial economy" with ridgid contraints and very tightly controlled market sectors-it collapsed. The framebuilding industry as a result of success, is starting to grow up. And as a result, is experiencing the exact same market and competitor pressures that every other industry has had to deal with since pretty much, the founding of the nation.

[bking]

This is a fascinating thread. I am not quite sure why framebuilding would be any different than any other industry. If there is a ongoing boom, you can be sure, there will be a corresponding shake-out. We operate in a free market economy by choice. All of us have the free market right to "hang out our shingle".

We certainly like it when Toyota has to routinely go up against Honda and we get the benefit of kick-ass quality cars at affordable prices. We certainly like it when companies like UPS and Fedex have to get our supples to us next day because, if they don't, some other competitor most certainly will. We sure as hell like when them there cheap air fare wars starts to a commencing!!

A certain "very large country",(with a lot of nukes) tried to establish an "artificial economy" with ridgid contraints and very tightly controlled market sectors-it collapsed. The framebuilding industry as a result of success, is starting to grow up. And as a result, is experiencing the exact same market and competitor pressures that every other industry has had to deal with since pretty much, the founding of the nation.

while i'm very much free market, I don't see this comparison working in this industry. When most of us buy a custom bike, when we've moved away from Toyota and Honda, so to speak, don't we now have a whole different set of value considerations. While I don't want to get too carried away with the "art" comparison, I think this industry is closer to that market then it is to typical economic considerations.
For me it's very much art and artist...but I get to ride it.

[zetroc]

second post here, hello everyone, etc. I followed the yellow brick google road and found this great forum. Lots of good info here, but you knew that already.

I just finished reading this whole thread from the beginning and I have to say that I think I understand where CG was and is coming from in the first post. I was until very recently a fine art framer for nearly 8 years. I never owned my own shop, but took pride in making something that people could own and enjoy that would last for at least 50 years if it didn't get physically destroyed. There's a lot of fine hand work in that line of business that, while not a bicycle, still takes a lot of care and attention to detail. I've got pretty decent hand tool skills, and an eye for detail that has served me well thus far. I do have to say that as a long time bike aficionado and craft geek I've always thought it would be cool to build frames - yeah, i know, I can hear you groaning already - but there's just some JNSQ about being able to make something with your hands that you can be proud of down the road. Right now I manage a warehouse, and it's fun enough, i guess (i signed up for the money/benefits/days off, since there's none of that in custom art framing unless you're working for a museum, and those jobs are extremely scarce - how many museums are in your town? plus most frame shops would prefer to hire some art student who will work for minimum wage as long as they can get smoke breaks and frame their own art for free when the boss isn't looking) but it's not exactly fulfilling my creative desires. Can't make anything cool in the shipping department.

That's not to say I have some unrealistic pie-in-the-sky idea that I can quit the day job, max out the cards with some files and a torch and an Anvil jig and start cranking out frames. I know that wouldn't come close to being an option. I'd rather buy some tools and try it on my days off, see how far I can get in my garage, take a class somewhere like the dreaded UBI. Where else could I start? Nobody's hiring starry-eyed future rockstar framebuilders, even at minimum wage to sweep the floor. I doubt anyone's offering apprenticeships either. Ya gotta eat. If I wandered up to, say, Bruce Gordon's shop and asked about a job for a guy with no welding, machining, painting, or brazing experience I'd at least learn what it sounds like when he laughs.

It does seem, like Curt said, that every 20 year old hipster who takes a class gets a website a week later, scrawls some missive about the zen of his craft on his new blog and starts taking orders, but everyone starts somewhere and like the man said, most of them will slip off the rocks into the water and end up back managing that warehouse. I don't want to be that guy who thinks he could be the next big-name-super-custom framebuilder with a really cool website and blog and twitter and facebook page - I just want to try and learn something new and maybe, just maybe, be able to build a few bikes that are fairly nice with my name on them. eventually.

So for now I'll just keep ogling the bikes made by people already in the biz, and maybe keep dreaming. And riding my bikes.




edit: forgot to mention, I can cut a purchase order like nobody's business.

[e-RICHIE]

It does seem, like Curt said, that every 20 year old hipster who takes a class gets a website a week later, scrawls some missive about the zen of his craft on his new blog and starts taking orders, but everyone starts somewhere and like the man said, most of them will slip off the rocks into the water and end up back managing that warehouse. I don't want to be that guy who thinks he could be the next big-name-super-custom framebuilder with a really cool website and blog and twitter and facebook page - I just want to try and learn something new and maybe, just maybe, be able to build a few bikes that are fairly nice with my name on them. eventually.

great post, and good luck with the journey.
here's an excellent role model for humility:
100001 100010 010001 010010 01

[Saab2000]

We sure as hell like when them there cheap air fare wars starts to a commencing!!

Really? We do? Hmmmm.......

One generally gets what one pays for...

[WayneJ]

Great thread !

Designing, making and testing stuff is fun. Some are better at it than others, but everyone who makes the attempt comes away with some level of satisfaction.

I work for a company that starts a design in the US, e-delivers it to India to be completed, sources the parts from the cheapest places possible, and assembles the product in various parts of the globe. Without a doubt, it is a very efficient operation and makes good business sense.

The problem is this ... No one person owns the end result and little overall satisfaction is achieved by each person involved in the process.

Framebuilding is hard work - no doubt, but I'm sure the satisfaction that comes from having total control of the product and process results in a high level of satisfaction.

I will likely never build a bike frame. But maybe I will:

draw a shape on a piece of wood
cut it out
sand it smooth
hold it in my hands
and feel good
Because making stuff is fun - and good for the soul.

[dave1215]

two and a half years since this point was originally made
now, in the wake of nahbs 2011 and the onslaught of regional shows
has the op's anticipated shake out begun? is it destined to be soon?
or have new builders found a way to sustain? where will it go from here?

Perhaps you've noticed? It seems one can't swing a mouse without hitting a new frame builder's website. It appears the market has grown for the hand built segment of the bike industry. That's cool and certainly I've benefitted from that. But there's something that bugs me about this boom. It seems to me many have entered into the frame building biz way too quickly. Historically folks came up through the ranks whether through a production shop or a job shop or through an apprenticeship or some combination of those. But now it seems one makes a frame, gets a website and voila... they're living the dream! The internet is full of bike forums some of which are focused on frame building. Folks can ask questions and that's awesome. These forums have helped to dispense advice and I would never argue that this is a bad thing. What happens a lot on these forums that I find disturbing though is when a very basic question is asked by someone that already has a website that touts one's abilities to produce works of art or some other crap like that. Perhaps I'm too close to the situation to look at it objectively but I don't see this sort of thing happening in other industries. Do electricians have a forum where they can ask the difference between amperage and voltage? Do accountants have a forum to ask about debits and credits? Not that I know of. I don't have a solution but I have a feeling the frame builder boom will produce a large supply of used building equipment for sale in the future. Also I think the boom has the potential for giving established builders more credibility or it could give the hand built segment of the bike industry a black eye. Either way I find the growth in number of builders going into business before having a rudimentary mastery of the basics difficult to stomach. I don't really have a question for anyone. I guess I just needed to get that off my chest amongst friends.

[Jonathan]

Oh Dave Dave Dave, yours might be the post of the day.