2020 Political Chatter

[monadnocky]

Timothy Snyder tells the Big Truth about where we are now:

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/01/09/m...mentsContainer

Holy smoke, can Snyder mobilize language. This is superbly spot on and beautifully written.

[monadnocky]

...It is also becoming clear that we got very lucky in dodging a serious threat to our government with serious loss of life...

I agree - if you haven't already, listen to John's previously posted NPR link. We are all suffering from a bit of hindsight bias right now, but I believe that we were a hair's breadth away from seeing US representatives being executed on the floor of the House. This was a complete, total, and utter security collapse, one that never would have happened if the protesters' skin color was of a darker hue (as in, there would have been sniping from the rooftops). The bigger picture is chilling, as the security analyst in this interview points out - this could have easily been cover for some other nefarious actors (ISIS? insert your fave terrorist group here) who could have wreaked 9/11-style terror. Given the social media forewarning, I'm kind of surprised no one did.

[Saab2000]

I agree - if you haven't already, listen to John's previously posted NPR link. We are all suffering from a bit of hindsight bias right now, but I believe that we were a hair's breadth away from seeing US representatives being executed on the floor of the House. This was a complete, total, and utter security collapse,

I don't think this is an overstatement at all. Among those on the floor of the Senate included a former USAF Lt. Colonel (USAF Academy Graduate Larry Rendall Brock Jr.), with plastic zip tie handcuffs. Those aren't for show and are effective. I think they absolutely had intentions of arresting, "trying" and executing members of congress they have been told by their radical overlords need to be hanged for treason. That language, which we've all heard, is not hyperbole for many of these insurrectionists.

That more GOP members of congress aren't taking this more seriously is astonishing. What happened last week went far beyond the rights outlined in the First Amendment.

As an aside, I have worked with many graduates of the service academies, especially the USAF Academy. Without painting with too broad a brush, based on our conversations, I have wondered what kind of critical thinking skills are nurtured in those institutions because they often espouse the views of far right GOP politics without being conversant in other perspectives. It's the GOP way (not the traditional conservative way) or the highway. There's no room for alternative thinking in the minds of many I've worked with and they're beyond confident in their views, often using their attendance at these institutions to defend their radical ideology, as if those schools are the only source of truth. As a taxpayer and citizen I am concerned with what is taught at these places, which should produce the best and brightest leaders, not ideological purity with large blinders. The images of this high ranking veteran USAF officer invading the US Senate chamber should be a wakeup call.

[ides1056]

Everyone reading this thread should read Timothy Snyder's essay.

Seriously.

[bigbill]

I don't think this is an overstatement at all. Among those on the floor of the Senate included a former USAF Lt. Colonel (USAF Academy Graduate Larry Rendall Brock Jr.), with plastic zip tie handcuffs. Those aren't for show and are effective. I think they absolutely had intentions of arresting, "trying" and executing members of congress they have been told by their radical overlords need to be hanged for treason. That language, which we've all heard, is not hyperbole for many of these insurrectionists.

That more GOP members of congress aren't taking this more seriously is astonishing. What happened last week went far beyond the rights outlined in the First Amendment.

As an aside, I have worked with many graduates of the service academies, especially the USAF Academy. Without painting with too broad a brush, based on our conversations, I have wondered what kind of critical thinking skills are nurtured in those institutions because they often espouse the views of far right GOP politics without being conversant in other perspectives. It's the GOP way (not the traditional conservative way) or the highway. There's no room for alternative thinking in the minds of many I've worked with and they're beyond confident in their views, often using their attendance at these institutions to defend their radical ideology, as if those schools are the only source of truth. As a taxpayer and citizen I am concerned with what is taught at these places, which should produce the best and brightest leaders, not ideological purity with large blinders. The images of this high ranking veteran USAF officer invading the US Senate chamber should be a wakeup call.

I have a kid at a service academy and I think some things have changed since the folks you worked with attended. My son is at Annapolis which only offers Bachelor of Science degrees. He is majoring in applied mathematics and wants to fly. Based on conversations with him and his friends, while there is a conservative majority, the liberal voice is heard. IMO, the Air Force Academy is the most conservative and far right of the academies. The West Point grads have a focus on leadership, and the Naval Academy guys are tech-based. Having served with many USNA grads during my 27 career, for many of them, it was like crossfit or veganism, they would tell you all about being from the academy. Some amount of arrogance is a result of a service academy, but arrogance is what gets you in trouble. Arrogance means you'll stick to a bad plan or idea because you can't admit you're wrong.

[Saab2000]

I have a kid at a service academy and I think some things have changed since the folks you worked with attended. My son is at Annapolis which only offers Bachelor of Science degrees. He is majoring in applied mathematics and wants to fly. Based on conversations with him and his friends, while there is a conservative majority, the liberal voice is heard. IMO, the Air Force Academy is the most conservative and far right of the academies. The West Point grads have a focus on leadership, and the Naval Academy guys are tech-based. Having served with many USNA grads during my 27 career, for many of them, it was like crossfit or veganism, they would tell you all about being from the academy. Some amount of arrogance is a result of a service academy, but arrogance is what gets you in trouble. Arrogance means you'll stick to a bad plan or idea because you can't admit you're wrong.

Based on my experience I'll take USN pilots 9 times out of 10 to work with. That said, I don't really want conservative vs. liberal. I value critical thinking. There is intellectual honesty and dishonesty in both trains of thought, especially when people try to assign ideological purity tests. Personally I try to avoid being labeled as one or the other though I lean left of center these days, at least according to the American paradigm, which is bizarre in some ways and largely unique to the American experience. What is labeled left or right in the US might not even be on the radar in other places.

I'm prepared to engage with and learn from anyone who can intelligently defend a position. Maybe I can fine tune my own ideas with good ideas from someone else. I'm not willing to engage people who simply repeat tired old mantras they heard from someone else and aren't prepared to consider other ideas and learn from others.

[vertical_doug]

I think Saab hits it on the head. To many of Trump's supporters are fact free. Conversations have to be on facts and logic. The whole current movement into 'alternative facts' is what wrecks the process, and why the right finds themselves in this mess.

[bigbill]

Based on my experience I'll take USN pilots 9 times out of 10 to work with. That said, I don't really want conservative vs. liberal. I value critical thinking. There is intellectual honesty and dishonesty in both trains of thought, especially when people try to assign ideological purity tests. Personally I try to avoid being labeled as one or the other though I lean left of center these days, at least according to the American paradigm, which is bizarre in some ways and largely unique to the American experience. What is labeled left or right in the US might not even be on the radar in other places.

I'm prepared to engage with and learn from anyone who can intelligently defend a position. Maybe I can fine tune my own ideas with good ideas from someone else. I'm not willing to engage people who simply repeat tired old mantras they heard from someone else and aren't prepared to consider other ideas and learn from others.

This past week has been a "hide or unfriend" exercise. Either a person fully buys into the Trump Lost Cause or they are posting to lecture others about how woke they are. There seems to be a lack of folks on either side who will apply critical thought. Many of the woke folk can be counted upon to change their background on FB to make a stand and the Trump Lost Causers can be counted upon to share whatever the latest meme or graphic another person has sent them. "Here is this thing that aligns to what I believe even though I didn't do any background research to prove the accuracy of what I'm sharing." If I point out spelling and syntax errors in what they are sharing because I believe it originated from outside the U.S., then I'm a snowflake. If I do the same with a left-leaning friend, then they "just don't have time to explain it to me."

For your USN pilot comment, when we deployed for OIF in 2003, we had a reserve squadron out of the Dallas area. Mostly American Airlines pilots flying F-18 Hornets. We did flight ops while crossing the Atlantic and the airline guys would catch the last wire because they were used to flying passengers. There were lots of bolters who had to go around. After a week of flying, they were slamming onto the deck with the best of them to catch the 2 or 3 wire. The squadron had a flight surgeon who was also a pilot. He flew airstrikes after sick call.

[Saab2000]

This past week has been a "hide or unfriend" exercise. Either a person fully buys into the Trump Lost Cause or they are posting to lecture others about how woke they are. There seems to be a lack of folks on either side who will apply critical thought. Many of the woke folk can be counted upon to change their background on FB to make a stand and the Trump Lost Causers can be counted upon to share whatever the latest meme or graphic another person has sent them. "Here is this thing that aligns to what I believe even though I didn't do any background research to prove the accuracy of what I'm sharing." If I point out spelling and syntax errors in what they are sharing because I believe it originated from outside the U.S., then I'm a snowflake. If I do the same with a left-leaning friend, then they "just don't have time to explain it to me."

For your USN pilot comment, when we deployed for OIF in 2003, we had a reserve squadron out of the Dallas area. Mostly American Airlines pilots flying F-18 Hornets. We did flight ops while crossing the Atlantic and the airline guys would catch the last wire because they were used to flying passengers. There were lots of bolters who had to go around. After a week of flying, they were slamming onto the deck with the best of them to catch the 2 or 3 wire. The squadron had a flight surgeon who was also a pilot. He flew airstrikes after sick call.

Most of your terminology WRT Naval aviation is lost on me....!! I'm 100% civilian trained, as are about half of airline folks. It's about a 50/50 mix at my company. Overall I think I prefer civilian flying partners but it's no absolute by any means. Largely that's based on our common experiences. I have little life experience in common with the military folks, but that doesn't mean it can't be really good. And as to USAF guys, I've had some real gems and I mean that in the best sense. One was a retired F16 squadron commander and we spent a transcontinental flight discussing the finer points of moving a squadron of F16s across the ocean (very, very, very carefully!!!). He was as humble and down to earth as was possible, and it was genuine. Humility is a big, big plus in my flying world. Funny thing is that the best ones I flew with displayed the most humility, both from the left and the right seats and were in fact the best pilots, possessing great judgment, knowledge and stick and rudder skills. They're the diamonds in the rough. Almost without exception, the military folks I've flown with have been excellent airmen and women, despite our occasional ideological differences.

As to your FB experience, I left the platform about 3 years ago largely for the reasons you mentioned. I hated the politics. Everything seemed to be meme-based and real discussion was impossible. And I saw "friends" post things that were appalling. Yes, friendships were a casualty of my being on there and my departure. FB is bad news and I recommend people leave it but I also get why some folks stay. At the minimum I'd recommend just unfollowing those who become distasteful.

[jclay]

I don't think this is an overstatement at all. Among those on the floor of the Senate included a former USAF Lt. Colonel (USAF Academy Graduate Larry Rendall Brock Jr.), with plastic zip tie handcuffs. Those aren't for show and are effective. I think they absolutely had intentions of arresting, "trying" and executing members of congress they have been told by their radical overlords need to be hanged for treason. That language, which we've all heard, is not hyperbole for many of these insurrectionists.

That more GOP members of congress aren't taking this more seriously is astonishing. What happened last week went far beyond the rights outlined in the First Amendment

It absolutely isn't an overstatement and the relatively tepid responses from the GOP is extremely disturbing. There shouldn't be one GD GOP member that isn't advancing the 25th AND impeachment for Trump, as well as expulsion from every government post (benefits included) occupied by anybody that took part. If there is a mechanism by which Pence could be removed for failure to defend the Constitution, via the obvious need to employ the 25th, it should be vigorously used. The security and police services as well as the military, across the nation, need to be cleaned from top to bottom.

These guys aren't playing around. Failing to take them deadly seriously ignores an avalanche of evidence both on-line and demonstrated in the streets. The contents of the wacko chat groups, the plans of the would-be Whitmer murderers and everything else is crystal clear. The response should be like an anvil dropping on an uncooked egg. Lite Col Brock should not see the light of day outside of prison bars for the remainder of his life; same for anybody carrying a weapon or restraints of any type; that represents clear intent.

Accomplice liability should apply; anyone and everyone who had anything to do with this should be locked up for decades. And yet the guy from Virginia or WV was let out his on own recognizance. That's an outrageous abrogation.

[bigbill]

Most of your terminology WRT Naval aviation is lost on me....!! I'm 100% civilian trained, as are about half of airline folks. It's about a 50/50 mix at my company. Overall I think I prefer civilian flying partners but it's no absolute by any means. Largely that's based on our common experiences. I have little life experience in common with the military folks, but that doesn't mean it can't be really good. And as to USAF guys, I've had some real gems and I mean that in the best sense. One was a retired F16 squadron commander and we spent a transcontinental flight discussing the finer points of moving a squadron of F16s across the ocean (very, very, very carefully!!!). He was as humble and down to earth as was possible, and it was genuine. Humility is a big, big plus in my flying world. Funny thing is that the best ones I flew with displayed the most humility, both from the left and the right seats and were in fact the best pilots, possessing great judgment, knowledge and stick and rudder skills. They're the diamonds in the rough. Almost without exception, the military folks I've flown with have been excellent airmen and women, despite our occasional ideological differences.

As to your FB experience, I left the platform about 3 years ago largely for the reasons you mentioned. I hated the politics. Everything seemed to be meme-based and real discussion was impossible. And I saw "friends" post things that were appalling. Yes, friendships were a casualty of my being on there and my departure. FB is bad news and I recommend people leave it but I also get why some folks stay. At the minimum I'd recommend just unfollowing those who become distasteful.

A quick navysplanation, there are four arresting wires on a carrier. The rear of the flight deck is called "the ramp" and the arresting wires number upwards from 1 through 4 from the ramp. Catching the 1 wire gets you a stern talking to because you were too close to the ramp when you landed. The goal of pilots is to catch the 3 wire. Every landing is scored with the base grade starting with which wire you hooked. 4 is better than 1 or 2. A bolter is when the pilot misses all the wires and has to go around. The new Ford class of carriers only has three wires, they finally figured out that the 1 wire was dumb. Landing on a carrier is a controlled crash, the plane violently slams into the deck, it's the reason carrier aircraft have oversized landing gear.

[jimcav]

It absolutely isn't an overstatement and the relatively tepid responses from the GOP is extremely disturbing. There shouldn't be one GD GOP member that isn't advancing the 25th AND impeachment for Trump, as well as expulsion from every government post (benefits included) occupied by anybody that took part. If there is a mechanism by which Pence could be removed for failure to defend the Constitution, via the obvious need to employ the 25th, it should be vigorously used. The security and police services as well as the military, across the nation, need to be cleaned from top to bottom.

These guys aren't playing around. Failing to take them deadly seriously ignores an avalanche of evidence both on-line and demonstrated in the streets. The contents of the wacko chat groups, the plans of the would-be Whitmer murderers and everything else is crystal clear. The response should be like an anvil dropping on an uncooked egg. Lite Col Brock should not see the light of day outside of prison bars for the remainder of his life; same for anybody carrying a weapon or restraints of any type; that represents clear intent.

Accomplice liability should apply; anyone and everyone who had anything to do with this should be locked up for decades. And yet the guy from Virginia or WV was let out his on own recognizance. That's an outrageous abrogation.

While I agree they should swiftly and all-encompassingly round these terrorists up, I don't think the current law allows the level of punishment you (and I) would want:
18 U.S. Code § 2383 - Rebellion or insurrection
U.S. Code
Notes
prev | next
Whoever incites, sets on foot, assists, or engages in any rebellion or insurrection against the authority of the United States or the laws thereof, or gives aid or comfort thereto, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than ten years, or both; and shall be incapable of holding any office under the United States.

My wife read a post that someone on Parlor had posted a "send me a list of all your illegal actions so we can get you on the pardon list", and MANY responded. I really hope that is true. Latest version of how they capture wanted criminals with the "you won X" or "you inherited Y" and they show up to claim it...

[jclay]

Worth a read for a brief intro on the devolution of media in the USA and why it matters: https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...youtube-google

[EDS]

The fact that people who believe in either (or in some cases both) white supremacy and religious ends justify the means policy (which explains the support for Trump from those factions) can find common cause is scary stuff.

[colker]

Maybe last wednesday´s incidents could lead the US congress to rethink the easy access to military level weapons. The idea of a "ready to confront established powers" militia is the one behind the so called lunacy. It´s not lunacy... and it can always get worse.

[Clean39T]

The fact that people who believe in either (or in some cases both) white supremacy and religious ends justify the means policy (which explains the support for Trump from those factions) can find common cause is scary stuff.

Hmm.. that sounds familiar ...religious fundamentalism and personality-cultism leading to violent extremism. It's almost like we've become what we allegedly tried to free others from not so long ago.

[colker]

Hmm.. that sounds familiar ...religious fundamentalism and personality-cultism leading to violent extremism. It's almost like we've become what we allegedly tried to free others from not so long ago.

What´s the difference between Trump and Venezuela´s Maduro when it comes to respect for democratic institutions?

[ColonelJLloyd]

The irony of those decrying an infringement of free speech (i.e. Twitter, FB, Parler) today who advocated for and were thrilled about the decision in Citizens United v. FEC is pretty rank. I'm not suggesting it's particularly apples to apples, but the "corporations are people" bit doesn't quite square with the "tyranny" of a social media app suspending the account of another person who agreed to the terms and conditions. "Personal responsibility", right?

[colker]

Don´t know if this has been already posted. BIg Arnold doing the right thing>

[AngryScientist]

this is a concerning article.

i sure hope we make it through the next couple weeks without any more violence.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/exclusive...170801569.html