Very OT ….Knife steels ..

[TMB]

I hope this is a simple question for this audience.

I have one of those 12” knife steels in the kitchen. It has a roughish surface and I think probably does more damage than good.

I was remembering the other day a steel that my Dad had ( no idea what ever happened to it). At one point in his working life he found himself sharing rotations with other veterinarians in his circle doing inspections in local packing plants. i am told that one of the butchers took his steel away from him one day, cut it down to an appropriate length, polished it smooth then hung it over a vinegar bath for a few days to give it just the right amount of “bite”. Many years later it was still pretty much perfect.

So I started thinking that I should do something similar and polish my steel smooth- this is where I run into the first roadblock … any suggestions to polish a nice smooth surface on a round knife steel ??

[spopepro]

Chuck it and buy a ceramic hone?

Got no ideas on how to modify an existing steel… but it is true most of them abuse the edge rather than refine and straighten it.

[COVRTDESIGN]

A knife steel is to be used in between sharpenings to bring the edge of your knife back over to a point as the metal has rolled over during normal use. A few swipes on each side will bring the rolled edge back over. A knife steel does not sharpen, it does not remove metal, it just rolls it back over to a point and makes it feel sharper. You should have to do nothing to your knife steel, and I highly recommend you don't.

What are you doing to sharpen your knife?

[kdawg]

Sharpening techniques is a whole rabbit hole - some people are very obsessed.

For a little investment you can get something that works well on a variety of things though - I've been through a few things the last few years and am currently using a series of diamond plates with a thing that holds the blade at a fixed angle, and a piece of leather glued to wood to finish. Seems to work well.

[dgaddis]

I've found that using a leather strop regularly is *far* more effective at maintaining a good edge than using a steel. I got rid of my steel and only use the strop now, and I use it often, probably every other time I grab a knife I'll strop it.

[bigbill]

I bet this guy can offer advice. https://www.wintercutlery.com/ He build a nice bike frame too.

[9tubes]

If you want to go down the rabbit hole, start (and end) here: https://scienceofsharp.com/2018/08/2...ling-do-part-1

[jclay]

A knife steel is to be used in between sharpenings to bring the edge of your knife back over to a point as the metal has rolled over during normal use. A few swipes on each side will bring the rolled edge back over. A knife steel does not sharpen, it does not remove metal, it just rolls it back over to a point and makes it feel sharper. You should have to do nothing to your knife steel, and I highly recommend you don't.

What are you doing to sharpen your knife?

I did not know that!! Thank you!

Obviously I'm not the OP but: I have/use the same 1000, 4k and 8k Japanese waterstones that I use for edge tools in the shop. For repairing chips I just grab 220 and put it on my surface plate, and then 600ish emery. I rarely use the 8k stone.

[Matthew Strongin]

I've found that using a leather strop regularly is *far* more effective at maintaining a good edge than using a steel. I got rid of my steel and only use the strop now, and I use it often, probably every other time I grab a knife I'll strop it.

Beat me to it. Even a simple leather paddle strop with green compound will work wonders. I’ve had knives show up with nearly embarrassing edges and they’re razor sharp after a little work on the strop. The underlying edge is usually pretty good and it just needed to be honed. I’m not a sharpening expert but my knife obsession is roughly equal to my bike obsession these days so I spend a lot of time tinkering with and sharpening a lot of knives.

[dgaddis]

Beat me to it. Even a simple leather paddle strop with green compound will work wonders.

That's exactly what I've got. It lives in the drawer under the counter right where the knife block sits. Easy access, just takes a few seconds, and makes a very noticeable difference. You can even hear the difference, after a few strokes the sound the edge makes on the leather changes.

[jclay]

Beat me to it. Even a simple leather paddle strop with green compound will work wonders. I’ve had knives show up with nearly embarrassing edges and they’re razor sharp after a little work on the strop. The underlying edge is usually pretty good and it just needed to be honed. I’m not a sharpening expert but my knife obsession is roughly equal to my bike obsession these days so I spend a lot of time tinkering with and sharpening a lot of knives.

That's exactly what I've got. It lives in the drawer under the counter right where the knife block sits. Easy access, just takes a few seconds, and makes a very noticeable difference. You can even hear the difference, after a few strokes the sound the edge makes on the leather changes.

I'm curious: What's your full sharpening drill, for a not-sharp, lightly dinged-up edge? What stones/grits do you use and typically finish with?

Based on my strop-newbie internet searching I'm guessing the knives y'all strop have been on stones well into the polish grit stage (above the equivalent of 4000 in Japanese waterstones). Is that about right?

What suppliers do you use for your strop compounds, and what grits?

This was educational for me: https://sharpyknives.com/what-does-s...ng-a-knife-do/

[Alistair]

What type of knife are you sharpening, and do you know what steel it is made of? Honing rods are usually used with Western (ie. non Japanese) knife steels. These are typically at or below 58 Rockwell in hardness, so the rod is able to straighten the rolled edge and hence the knife cuts more cleanly.

Japanese knives typically have a Rockwell hardness in the low to mid 60's and don't respond very well to honing rods. The metal is too hard and brittle and you can end up chipping the working edge which is why whetstones are most commonly used to sharpen Japanese steel.

The rabbit hole of the knife world (edge geometry, metallurgy, heat treatment etc.) runs DEEP and the whetstone rabbit hole (synthetic or natural?, diamond vs CBN vs traditional bonded abrasives etc.) isn't much shallower.

Combine all that with the wide variety of sharpeing techniques that are availible (guided/tool aided vs freehand, leading edge vs trailing edge, the many different "shapes" that one can make in the way that they pass the knife over the stone etc.) and which themselves are related to some or many of the parameters mentioned above and you can see that a person could spend many years getting to the bottom of it all.

I cooked in commercial kitchens for over 20 years but have only been learning about the finer points of knives, whetstones, and sharpening techniques for the last 5 1/2 years or so. I feel like I've learned enough in that time to be able to say that I feel like I have a reasonable idea of how much I have yet to learn about the subject, and it is a LOT, so take my answer to your question with that in mind:

I'm not a fan of those roughly textured honing steels with the longitudinal grooves running down them. They tear and rip the metal off the rolled adge of the blade. This can make the knife feel initially sharper because it gives the the edge more "tooth" which can be an advantage (especially when cutting fiborous meat, like steak) but it doesn't usually last long, and you'll wear the knife out quite quickly doing this.

I would say that the meatcutter who smoothed out your fathers honing steel had the right idea. You could modify yours by taking it to a belt sander first, then finishing the smoothing process using emery cloth, applied by hand. If it were me, I'd just go and buy a smooth steel/ceramic honing rod and save myself the trouble (assuming you have a knife made from Westrn steel).

Peronally I use Japanese whetstones and find that a three stone progression up to 3000 grit, then stropping on leather gets my knives as sharp as I would ever need them to be. At that point they'll shave my arm hair. Anything beyond that is unecessary in my view but people get a kick out of their 10,000 grit and above whetstones, not to mention their sub micron diamond pastes. Don't know how much functinonally sharper that makes a knife, but I will say that the polish that results is rather impressive.

Alistair

[giordana93]

Agree with much above, so only add this:

I don't think the Germans who made my striated/textured steel are idiots. In fact, that steel (the tool) seems to work pretty well with the steel (material) of the Wusthof knives it came with. Those knives are not the easiest to sharpen, compared to traditonal high carbon, and they seem to suffer little by the texturing. After years of use, in fact, the ridges on the steel have gotten pretty polished themselves, and I like the little bit of aggressiveness of the ridges to tune up the edge anyway. The knives have not "quickly" worn away.

So if the ridged steel matches the brand/hardness of knife it goes with, call it a day and spend your time and energy on other projects. But don't use it on Japanese knives or other brittle steels, and maybe a lighter hand on a softer high carbon blade. A ceramic job starts to cross the line between honing and sharpening (which removes a tiny amount of material) and a diamond tool even more so. I would not routinely use one although I guess if you are careful and have good technique you might never really need a full-on sharpening with stones. With regular use of my "honing" steel, I can go pretty long between sharpenings-then again, I don't cut sushi or fetishize a razor edge. Sharp enough is sometimes sharp enough. Finally, I would never cut a steel down. It would be like trading in a nice big stone for a little one. Never mind the beating it would give the saw. I like the length.

[giordana93]

I've found that using a leather strop regularly is *far* more effective at maintaining a good edge than using a steel. I got rid of my steel and only use the strop now, and I use it often, probably every other time I grab a knife I'll strop it.

do you always use compound/paste or dry?

[Mark Kelly]

Peronally I use Japanese whetstones and find that a three stone progression up to 3000 grit, then stropping on leather gets my knives as sharp as I would ever need them to be. At that point they'll shave my arm hair. Anything beyond that is unecessary in my view but people get a kick out of their 10,000 grit and above whetstones, not to mention their sub micron diamond pastes. Don't know how much functinonally sharper that makes a knife, but I will say that the polish that results is rather impressive.

Alistair

IMO fine polishing a cutting edge which is used in a pushing motion (like a planer) is very important, but with a blade which is used in a slicing motion (like a knife) it is unnecessary. I used to make a palaver about getting my knives as sharp as my planer blades but I no longer bother doing so ; I now use a progression similar to yours.


Also don't forget that Japanese (JIS) grit standards differ from European (FEPA) ones, for example A JIS 3000 grit is close to a FEPA 1000. I understand the USA mostly uses FEPA standard.

[jclay]

I got a half dozen Lamson SS kitchen knives about 30 years ago. Riveted wooden handles, no bolster, No 650 Chef is an exemplar of the group. Good knives, more than adequate for my life, they'll take a decent edge; I did a decent job of sharpening them every now/then and didn’t ding’em around so they stayed sharp enough to work acceptably with not very much attention. Workhorses, no babying needed, I just gave them sensible handling, kept’em away from utensils and stored them properly.

Some years later I inherited a long, slender profile Sabatier with a thin blade in CS; with a nice edge it became a great fish portion-er/slicer or psudo sushi knife. That got me curious about kitchen knives in general, then Japanese kitchen knives which led to Bernal Cutlery and getting a Masakane Guyto, 210mm, unknown version of SK steel, thin, springy, no bolster. I have little to compare it to but I can get it seriously sharp and it stays that way for months; I wasn’t a fan of the handle at first but now I appreciate it; a larger handle would have made it clunky, which it is not. It’s not a piece of the hand forgers art, just a very nice production knife. Some months later I got a Kaji-Bei Nakri, 165mm, Shirogami 2 in iron cladding, thin and nicely tapered; it sharpens easily and well, too.

All that has caused an increase in focus on sharpening. I’m sharpening knives in friends kitchens and that means I run into meaningful chips which are slow to work out with 1000 (or 1200, don’t remember) so I ordered a 300 Japanese water-stone the other day. That will speed chip repair, setting bevels and profiling drastically.

To do it over again I think I’d have a 300, 1k, 3k, 6k, strop. I might do that….or just “struggle” along with the 300, 1000/1200, 4k, 8k and the strop I’ll get shortly.

From what I gather it looks like the Nakri’s Shiro2 would benefit from a polished edge so I may start including the 8000 stone on it. I don’t know if the SK steel would benefit from that level of polish.

As an aside, I recently picked up a Kershaw Link folder in olive drab anodized aluminum grips! I’ve needed a pocket folder for a while and I really dig this one; bit of a horse for some dress though….so obviously I had to get the little Kershaw Chive in SS handle as a follow up!

[Alistair]

Agree with much above, so only add this:

I don't think the Germans who made my striated/textured steel are idiots. In fact, that steel (the tool) seems to work pretty well with the steel (material) of the Wusthof knives it came with. Those knives are not the easiest to sharpen, compared to traditonal high carbon

Yes, good point. I have found that waterstones, or at least Japanese water stones, don't mix well with softer steels but I'm not entirely sure why that is. In sharpening something like a Whustof or a Henkels knife on Naniwa Chosera stones for example I have found it hard to get the kind of clean edge that I can get on the few Japanese knives that I own (I also agree that German knife makers are not idiots, most defintiely not).

In the metal fabrication world, specifically when grinding tool steel (high speed steel lathe bit blanks for example) I was taught that the harder the steel, the softer the grinding wheel should be. Think of those grey all purpose grinding wheels that come with most bench grinders when you initially buy them. Terrible for grinding a lathe bit because they don't break down fast enough to expose fresh cutting media. They tend to glaze over and get hot and as result don't cut well. For hard steels you want a wheel that is friable (vs one that is indurate) and I'm guessing that this has some bearing on why certain knife steels don't respnd well to whetstone sharpening.

Anyway, I find the whole subject rather fascinating but try not to get drawn in too deeply to all the lore and debating of knife sharpening minutiae. I've learned what I need to know to get the knives that I llke to use sharp enough for my needs, and I try to leave it at that.

Alistair

[jclay]

I've learned what I need to know to get the knives that I llke to use sharp enough for my needs, and I try to leave it at that.
Alistair

Philosophically the Zip Code I'm in and that definitely includes increasing the sharpening juice/squeeze ratio by working smarter.

The 300 stone is going to be a big help 'cause on friend's dinged up knives it'll get me to the finer aspects of sharpening quickly. And the strop for de-burr and fine touch-up.

[Alistair]

Hi John, yes, I use a 400 grit stone in a similar way. Chip removal sometimes, but mostly for setting the foundational edge geometry. I like 13 degrees (26 degrees included angle) for my knives. Seems to givre a good balance of ease of cutting, and longevity. To set that bevel on a higher grit stone takes more time.

The 400 grit removes metal quickly, raising a burr along the cutting edge that lets me know that it's properly apexed. From there it's all burr management and iterative burr reduction using finer and finer grits. The strop is what finally removes any straggling burr remnants (they are, or should be, fairly micrscopic at this point, after the 3000 grit stone).

Alistair

[TMB]

What type of knife are you sharpening, and do you know what steel it is made of? Honing rods are usually used with Western (ie. non Japanese) knife steels. These are typically at or below 58 Rockwell in hardness, so the rod is able to straighten the rolled edge and hence the knife cuts more cleanly.

Japanese knives typically have a Rockwell hardness in the low to mid 60's and don't respond very well to honing rods. The metal is too hard and brittle and you can end up chipping the working edge which is why whetstones are most commonly used to sharpen Japanese steel.

The rabbit hole of the knife world (edge geometry, metallurgy, heat treatment etc.) runs DEEP and the whetstone rabbit hole (synthetic or natural?, diamond vs CBN vs traditional bonded abrasives etc.) isn't much shallower.

Combine all that with the wide variety of sharpeing techniques that are availible (guided/tool aided vs freehand, leading edge vs trailing edge, the many different "shapes" that one can make in the way that they pass the knife over the stone etc.) and which themselves are related to some or many of the parameters mentioned above and you can see that a person could spend many years getting to the bottom of it all.

I cooked in commercial kitchens for over 20 years but have only been learning about the finer points of knives, whetstones, and sharpening techniques for the last 5 1/2 years or so. I feel like I've learned enough in that time to be able to say that I feel like I have a reasonable idea of how much I have yet to learn about the subject, and it is a LOT, so take my answer to your question with that in mind:

I'm not a fan of those roughly textured honing steels with the longitudinal grooves running down them. They tear and rip the metal off the rolled adge of the blade. This can make the knife feel initially sharper because it gives the the edge more "tooth" which can be an advantage (especially when cutting fiborous meat, like steak) but it doesn't usually last long, and you'll wear the knife out quite quickly doing this.

I would say that the meatcutter who smoothed out your fathers honing steel had the right idea. You could modify yours by taking it to a belt sander first, then finishing the smoothing process using emery cloth, applied by hand. If it were me, I'd just go and buy a smooth steel/ceramic honing rod and save myself the trouble (assuming you have a knife made from Westrn steel).

Peronally I use Japanese whetstones and find that a three stone progression up to 3000 grit, then stropping on leather gets my knives as sharp as I would ever need them to be. At that point they'll shave my arm hair. Anything beyond that is unecessary in my view but people get a kick out of their 10,000 grit and above whetstones, not to mention their sub micron diamond pastes. Don't know how much functinonally sharper that makes a knife, but I will say that the polish that results is rather impressive.

Alistair

I am really glad you posted this. I think that this may be the gem here . Most of my knives are either German or swedish and it never occurred to me that that would be the difference. I have couple of Japanese knives and maybe my inner voice just knew I should not be going near a honing rod with them - so I haven’t.

Most of my shop, and knife sharpening is done on diamond stones. I have one ceramic waterstone - 15,000 grit - which is mostly for my carving tools but I do haul it out from time to time to touch up a kitchen knife.

I have pieces of leather around here then any normal person would - I was given a lerge piece of leather years ago and make a new strop whenever the mood hits me - but I probably still have enough to pass down to my kids.

I have, from to time, just used the burnishing rod I have in my shop for touching up my cabinet scrapers and it is certainly better than the “knife steel” …

There is a post further down the page suggesting just taking the belt sander to the steel - which I guess was really what I was hoping to see because it had never crossed my mind. So, I may take the steel down to the belt sander and if I F it up, I’ll toss it out and say I didn’t really lose anything.